We Have to Hold Onto Jim Zorn

[Oldfan]

zoony: Oldfan, I think proper mechanics and throwing ability are a small part of what makes a QB successful at this level. Because lets face it, if you get to the NFL, you can sling the rock.

You can't possibly be saying that all QBs are equal in ability to sling the rock, so you must be saying that there is a minimum to qualify, but talent above that doesn't count for much.

I don't know how you get to that notion. To me, it's obvious that the first thing to look for in a QB is the ability to throw the football with consistent accuracy and in different patterns.

Sure, you can always work to improve things, especially footwork at this level... but by and large the QB's who can do it consistently in this league have won the mental game.

The mental side is important, no doubt, but I don't grade the factor higher than the ability to throw the football.

[Oldfan]

Jason is one of the worst long-ball passers in the league imo.

Come on, zoony. He's not as good as many posters think, because he often throws it too flat, but he's above average.

And his release is among the slowest in the league, even if it has improved from where it was.

You don't really believe that do you?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I'm with you Of on keeping Zorn.

Seeing as Snyder still stubbornly refuses to cease with the Cerrato nepotism, and continues to have a major impact in all aspects on the football side, thus ending any chance of anyone with any serious credibility coming here to Coach, we may as well have continuity with Coach Zorn.

As regards the QB's, I sure as heck hope the current #3 improves that extra 10", to use the Z-Man's analogy, because 4 years in to a pro career, Jason's mechanics look beyond help.

I fail to see this great improvement in him that you do. What exactly has the Z-Man improved in Jason this year?

His foot works slightly better, he doesn't look as bunched up over Rabach as he prepares for the snap, but then i'm struggling to see any improvement year on year in his basic fundamentals.

His release is still as slow as it's ever been, I say his foot works only "slightly" better, as his deep ball is pretty darn woefull most of the time. He never gets enough air under it, and often forces the receivers to come back on their routes, if only ny a few steps. That's if he gets it to them in a catchable fashion at all.

But regardless of if you believe you can still correct the basic fundamental flaws he continues to bring to the table, his mental side suggests he'll never be anything more than an average to good, at best, pro QB. His reactions and speed of thought are not something that can be taught, there a natural thing you either have or don't.

Sadly, through 4 years and 2 and half of actual NFL playing time, he's repeatedly shown he's the latter.

Hail.

[NeueRedskinWelle]

He's never going to be as quick as Drew Brees, but then Drew Brees is never going to hurt you deep.

Whoa now. I agree with just about anything you say on here, but Drew Brees is a threat anywhere on the field.

[Oldfan]

In some ways, it sounds like you (Oldfan) are simply saying, "It's a good thing that Joe Gibbs is gone in regards to Jason Campbell's mechanics." I have to assume that 8/10 QB coaches care about mechanics, and another 8/10 of those can actually improve them.

Joe Gibbs is probably in the majority. Most coaches minimize the importance of OB mechanics (if you get it there, it doesn't matter how). Jim Zorn and Ron Jaworski who played the position at the NFL level represent the minority viewpoint (show me how they throw it and I will predict the results). I support the minority view.

[Oldfan]

Whoa now. I agree with just about anything you say on here, but Drew Brees is a threat anywhere on the field.

His arm strength is a little better than Pennington's.

[Pounds]

Jason is one of the worst long-ball passers in the league imo.

And his release is among the slowest in the league, even if it has improved from where it was.

Agreed, dude throws frozen rope after frozen rope. Regarding his release, or rather, wind up, any improvement is a nearly imperceptible one, especially when he dips his shoulder.

[isle-hawg]

It took me 15 minutes to decide that Jay Cutler is the most talented QB I've ever seen. He's beautiful to watch. He's the kind of gifted athlete who could play any position on a baseball field and his mechanics are super.

I apologize for being off topic, but isn't Cutler who Denver drafted with the 1st round pick we gave them (along with a 2nd) for the rights to pick Campbell???:doh:

[33]

Joe Gibbs is probably in the majority. Most coaches minimize the importance of OB mechanics (if you get it there, it doesn't matter how). Jim Zorn and Ron Jaworski who played the position at the NFL level represent the minority viewpoint (show me how they throw it and I will predict the results). I support the minority view.

This is entirely possible. I've generally been under the assumption that QB coaches job is mechanics and studying game film.

Regardless, can you think of an instance where a Qb's mechanics overcame previous mediocre seasons? And, how would you judge Sonny's mechanics?

[mnb123]

I apologize for being off topic, but isn't Cutler who Denver drafted with the 1st round pick we gave them (along with a 2nd) for the rights to pick Campbell???:doh:

Nope, cutler was from a trade with the rams

[Oldfan]

I fail to see this great improvement in him that you do. What exactly has the Z-Man improved in Jason this year?

I thought that Al Saunders made Jason 50% better mechanically after the 2006 season and Zorn did a super job after last season. It's obvious that many fans aren't seeing the same things I'm seeing. I see a different QB, one much quicker and more compact in setup and delivery.

But regardless of if you believe you can still correct the basic fundamental flaws he continues to bring to the table, his mental side suggests he'll never be anything more than an average to good, at best, pro QB. His reactions and speed of thought are not something that can be taught, there a natural thing you either have or don't.

I agree. I have the same impression. I think Colt might ultimately might have more potential, but Jim Zorn designed the plays. When one breaks down, he can spot the problem after watching game film. I don't have that advantage, so I'm just guessing when I express an opinion on the mental side of a QB's game.

[Oldfan]

Regardless, can you think of an instance where a Qb's mechanics overcame previous mediocre seasons? And, how would you judge Sonny's mechanics?

Except for Campbell, Hasslebeck is the only one I know of who got an extreme makeover.

Sonny's delivery was similar to Brunell's. The ball came out at shoulder level. Super-accuracy on short-to-medium routes, weak on deeper throws. Could be a problem in today's NFL with taller lineman in front of him. Sonny didn't have Brunell's wheels to get him out of the pocket to create throwing lanes.

I wouldn't teach his mechanics to a kid.

[MDstar08]

My question for you is... what exactly does Zorn bring to the table that Gibbs hasn't?

People forget that Gibbs was also an excellent QB coach. He's worked with JC for a few years. Now Zorn is working with him.

Personally, I think whatever we've gotten out of JC at this point is all we're going to get.

You call 2 years under Gibbs a few years when he rarely started a game cause we had Brunell. Last season he started 8 games which I think is fairly well. He finally got in a full season healthy as a 4 year QB. Have u forgotten that Gibbs liked vet QB's, I believe so. Also if u think JC has given the skins all he has then u don't know how QB's develop w/QB coaching like Zorn.

[BoRnAndRaiSedSkinsFan]

My question for you is... what exactly does Zorn bring to the table that Gibbs hasn't?

People forget that Gibbs was also an excellent QB coach. He's worked with JC for a few years. Now Zorn is working with him.

Personally, I think whatever we've gotten out of JC at this point is all we're going to get.

Gibbs was not a QB coach...at all. He never develped any QB. He always brought in veterans, to limit mistakes, and ran the football. That's why we saw the run run pass punt offense the second time around. JC made more progress this year than his first 3 seasons. There's a reason Zorn came in, kept the ground game, and wanted to change the passing game. Gibbs was an inspirational leader. He got out of players what most coaches could never get. It's funny, I remember reading an article on the 5 worst Superbowl QBs of all time. 2 of the 5 were Joe Gibbs QBs... Mary Rypien and I believe the other was Doug Williams. That just shows what a great inspirational coach JG was.

[fansince62]

Let's hope that Dan and Vinny have plenty of patience with Jim Zorn as their head coach because the man gives the Skins an edge over the competition. I'll explain:

When coaching youth football and baseball, many coaches start boys off with one knee on the ground when teaching them to throw. I started my sons, grandsons and other people's boys off with both knees on the ground. Not too long ago, I heard Dan Marino say that his father started him off with both knees down.

A young athlete who gets no instruction will find his own way to throw. If practiced enough, he can get pretty good results from poor techniques but his potential is limited.

My point here is that "mechanics" have a direct relationship to result. There are advantages and disadvantages to each basic style, but the results are predictable. If you know what to look for, you can spot talent in minutes. It took me 15 minutes to decide that Jay Cutler is the most talented QB I've ever seen. He's beautiful to watch. He's the kind of gifted athlete who could play any position on a baseball field and his mechanics are super.

In talking about Colt Brennan in a press conference, Jim Zorn put his hands about eight inches apart to describe Colt's potential right now, then extended his hands to eighteen inches to illustrate how better mechanics would increase his chances of making it in the NFL. In my not-so-humble opinion, both Colt and Jason are excellent athletes, but neither would have much of a chance of making the grade without Jim's Zorn's help.

Jason has a great attitude and worked hard, setting a fine example for Colt to follow. Jim Zorn tells us that there is more work ahead, but Jason Campbell looked much quicker and more compact this season, a different QB that the one that came out of Auburn.

So, we need to keep Jim Zorn here because he gives us an edge over the 31 other NFL teams. He's like a pitching coach in MLB who's way ahead of the curve.

cool!...so you think Zorn should e the QB coach and not the HC!! :point2sky

[Oldfan]

cool!...so you think Zorn should e the QB coach and not the HC!! :point2sky

He'd still be in Seattle if we had nothing better to offer than the QB coach's job. I think Z brings more to the head coach's table than say, Bill Cowher, whose reputation was made by his support system in Pittsburgh.

[Skins_Throwback]

Zorn needs an experienced offensive coordinator. He can't do both. Too green to make it work.

[Oldfan]

Zorn needs an experienced offensive coordinator. He can do both. Too green to make it work.

Then you set up the potential of another Gibbs/Saunders conflict. He was given the HC's job to lay the groundwork for a new offensive scheme. Our offense was ranked #16 by footballoutsiders.com whose rankings are more intelligent that the NFL's yardage stats. That's not bad for year one.

It should be a lot better next year. If it isn't, then something about the plan needs to be changed.

[eljeasel]

Then you set up the potential of another Gibbs/Saunders conflict. He was given the HC's job to lay the groundwork for a new offensive scheme. Our offense was ranked #16 by footballoutsiders.com whose rankings are more intelligent that the NFL's yardage stats. That's not bad for year one.

It should be a lot better next year. If it isn't, then something about the plan needs to be changed.

Im with you OF. The offense was able to move the ball pretty well sometimes but struggled at others. We still have protection woes and red zone woes (which shockingly we had under Collins too). Look for improvement in both areas next year or say goodbye to Z

[Dan T.]

That was last year. He's much quicker now.

Jason is a lanky guy with long arms. He's never going to be as quick as Drew Brees, but then Drew Brees is never going to hurt you deep.

Um, Drew Brees threw for 8,753 yards this season. I know he gets lots of YAC from his receivers, but some of that real estate was from the deep ball.

[BigRedskinDaddy]

Joe Gibbs is probably in the majority. Most coaches minimize the importance of OB mechanics (if you get it there, it doesn't matter how). Jim Zorn and Ron Jaworski who played the position at the NFL level represent the minority viewpoint (show me how they throw it and I will predict the results). I support the minority view.

You? A contrarian? No -

I kid, brother. I kid...

[NastyBoy]

There are certain unmeasurables that can't be taught no matter how gifted an athlete. I feel that Colt's potential, especially under this system, is far grader and can be reached sooner than JC, on top of having certain qualities that JC lacks. I like JC, but I think we can get more out of Colt, and by extension, would extend Zorn's career here as the HC.

I couldn't agree more. Here's a blurp I posted in another thread. It seems to fit in perfectly here.

Throw stats out the window for just one second. I mean totally. Watch a guy like Aaron Rodgers play. The way he moves in the pocket and throws on the run. Forget TD's and INT's for just a second. Are you seriously going to tell me he doesn't give a team a better chance to win than JC?? Drew Brees is another one. Watch the way he moves in the pocket, steps up into it or slides it left or right and throws on the run. Even Phillip Rivers (who personally I HATE) has fire and intensity and somehow, with that pathetic throwing motion of his gets it done. That's kinda what I'm getting at. The things the stats don't show and will never show. JC just doesn't have that thing that makes him special. Now I'm not saying Colt has any of that. Nor am I suggesting he's the savior here. But if nothing else he has "quicks", and is far more mobile with good throwing skills while on the run. I just don't get how JC is, or can ever be that type of difference-maker, much to all our disappointment. I've always said it's nothing personal, and that I'd MUCH rather see him succeed than fail. In my opinion........and I'm speaking only for myself........he does not show the potential to be much more than we've seen already. It has nothing to do with how long you've been in a system or have had the same coaching staff. There are playing skills you either have, or don't have as an athlete..........that can't be taught. Intangibles. Sure you can hone those skills, but you can't make a guy who's fastest 40 time is a 4.7, a 4.3 guy, right? Same principal here. No, I never played NFL football........but I did play at a division 1 school (as a backup) and some minor league baseball. I've been around athletes. Doesn't make me an expert by any means but heck........this isn't rocket science, guys. It's easy to see after a relatively short period of time what a guy's capabilities are. Surely many of you understand exactly what I'm saying. Or am I on an island here?

That was last year. He's much quicker now.

Jason is a lanky guy with long arms. He's never going to be as quick as Drew Brees, but then Drew Brees is never going to hurt you deep.

Tell that to nearly every team Brees faced this year! There is no place on the field that Brees can't hurt you. And, as for his arm strength, he can throw a frozen rope with just about anyone in the league right now. Better still, he throws to the right receiver for the coverage much more often than not. He's also a better anticipator than most, reading defenses with accuracy and putting passes on-point with even greater accuracy prior to receivers coming off their breaks. Oh and if his near all-time yardage records isn't impressive enough as it is..........keep in mind Colston and Patten, his two go-to guys this season were absent most of the year. Even hear of Lance Moore before this year? Nah, didn't think so. He did what he did with a cast of virtual unknown guys, and a couple of flashy guys in Meachem and Henderson. Heck Shockey was out most of the year as well. Tell me that's not impressive.

Oldfan, I think proper mechanics and throwing ability are a small part of what makes a QB successful at this level. Because lets face it, if you get to the NFL, you can sling the rock. Sure, you can always work to improve things, especially footwork at this level... but by and large the QB's who can do it consistently in this league have won the mental game.

They can make lightning-quick reads. They can see almost instantly after the ball is snapped what the defense is doing and where the weakness will be. Who will have single coverage and who will be doubled. Where the safeties and LBers will be, and where not to go with the football. Anticipating who will come open and when, and the proper timing of the throw.

So you can have some of the best mechanics in the world, and if you don't get that, you're destined to fail. Which is why QB is the single hardest position to scout... because imo, some things you just can't coach. Either the guy gets it or he doesn't. Because if it could be coached (as mechanics can be), pretty much every team would have a quality starter.

.......

Very well said.

Jason is one of the worst long-ball passers in the league imo.

And his release is among the slowest in the league, even if it has improved from where it was.

Agree 100% The only think slower than his delivery is his decision making.

I'm with you Of on keeping Zorn.

As regards the QB's, I sure as heck hope the current #3 improves that extra 10", to use the Z-Man's analogy, because 4 years in to a pro career, Jason's mechanics look beyond help.

I fail to see this great improvement in him that you do. What exactly has the Z-Man improved in Jason this year?

His foot works slightly better, he doesn't look as bunched up over Rabach as he prepares for the snap, but then i'm struggling to see any improvement year on year in his basic fundamentals.

His release is still as slow as it's ever been, I say his foot works only "slightly" better, as his deep ball is pretty darn woefull most of the time. He never gets enough air under it, and often forces the receivers to come back on their routes, if only ny a few steps. That's if he gets it to them in a catchable fashion at all.

But regardless of if you believe you can still correct the basic fundamental flaws he continues to bring to the table, his mental side suggests he'll never be anything more than an average to good, at best, pro QB. His reactions and speed of thought are not something that can be taught, there a natural thing you either have or don't.

Sadly, through 4 years and 2 and half of actual NFL playing time, he's repeatedly shown he's the latter.

Hail.

Also very well stated.

His arm strength is a little better than Pennington's.

:doh: WHAT??? If Pennington threw with 2 hands he wouldn't have the arm strength of Brees. Come on now! :shot:

He'd still be in Seattle if we had nothing better to offer than the QB coach's job. I think Z brings more to the head coach's table than say, Bill Cowher, whose reputation was made by his support system in Pittsburgh.

Now that's just crazy talk!! lol......

[Skinsinparadise]

I am with you on Zorn being a good quarterback coach, but so far he has struck me as a terrible offensive coordinator and a questionable head coach.

If he stopped calling plays I am with you 100% on this. As to why I don't think he's much of a coordinator, I've elaborated on that in other posts, some of where we debated, so don't have the energy to do it again here. IMO Brian Mitchell on his radio show explains Zorn's ineptitude as a play caller better than anybody.

Keep in mind if you read the articles post Portis' explosion about Zorn it was said that some other players agree with him but thought it was out of line for Portis to air it out publicly. Also, Pete Kendall rolled his eyes and said yeah "its always execution" that's the problem.

So Zorn being a stud head coach, maybe but there is clearly some dissension in the air about that. And frankly even as a QB coach, the guy wasn't magic this year. Did he do better with Campbell than lets say Atlanta and Baltimore did with their rookie QB's? Did Campbell blow us away with a remarkable season?

Nonetheless, I do agree with you that Zorn knows what he's doing as a QB coach, I don't really at the moment have faith in the guy in ANY other department.

Edit: Got to give Oldfan credit though and I don't mean this sarcastically, in different threads he's touting Dan Snyder as a very good and only getting better owner, and not only is Jim Zorn a very good coach but he's a precious commodity. I wish I had his faith because my off season would be much more fun and I'd be hyped about next year.

I am an optimistic guy by nature and am not one on this board who ****es about everything. But I can't help have the feeling that the wheels are going to come off this team next year, Zorn will be gone and they will finally start rebuilding. But I hope Oldfan is right and am wrong.

[RocketCitySkins]

Um, Drew Brees threw for 8,753 yards this season. I know he gets lots of YAC from his receivers, but some of that real estate was from the deep ball.

Where did you get that number? Brees threw for 5069 yards this season. His YPA was 8.

[Oldfan]

If he stopped calling plays I am with you 100% on this.

I can't judge a playcaller in one season. I need to see patterns over a span of two or three seasons to form an opinion. I don't really give a rat's ass about what the ex-jocks-in-the-media think when they second guess.

I know it's difficult to find plays that work when your players can't win their one-on-one matchups. I know it's difficult to find plays that work when your QB is reading one thing and your receiver is reading another. I know that it's good to pick up 15 yards of field position on third and long, but the fans will get annoyed because it was still five yards short of a first down.

...And frankly even as a QB coach, the guy wasn't magic this year. Did he do better with Campbell than lets say Atlanta and Baltimore did with their rookie QB's? Did Campbell blow us away with a remarkable season?

Ryan and Flacco were solid #1 picks because they came into the NFL with good mechanics. The numbers 1, 3 and 4 picks we gave up for Jason Campbell was far too high a price to pay for a QB with sloppy mechanics. If Jason can handle the mental side of the game, Jim Zorn probably salvaged Jason's career and saved the Redskins from losing badly on their investment.