We Have to Hold Onto Jim Zorn

[rebornempowered]

So many people talk of Jason throwing on the third step of his drop like Brady. I may be crazy but he did this relatively well at the beginning of the season. In fact, I remember people here commenting on it.

Then, the Steelers game happened and teams knew to beat the Redskins you send the house and bump the midgets at the line. You can't throw on your third step when the receivers haven't done anything but wrestle themselves free of CB's who are bigger and stronger than them and they have barely gone five yards.

That is probably why we didn't see as many plays called with a three step drop and throw in the last part of the season. If my memory serves me most were deeper drops later in the season but I haven't officially analyzed it.

[Oldfan]

As for my disputed remark about Drew Brees's lack of arm strength...here's a thread from the Chargers Forum circa 2003 discussing the issue.

If there's a discussion, there's an issue. Nobody is going to start a thread about Jay Cutler's lack of arm strength.

Brees is an outstanding QB, but like Pennington, defenses can compress the field some when playing the Saints because he's not going to kill you with the bomb.

Here's the link.

[TimmySmith]

I will agree that JC had horrible mechanics, now they are merely bad. He still holds the ball too low, which I am sure he has done his whole life. He gets many balls swatted out of his hand because of this. His release is quicker, but still not quick. His deep ball suffers because of his long release. NFL wideouts are too fast, so therefore most of his long balls end up underthrown.

My biggest issue with Zorn is it seems he has fallen right into the Snyder mold of wanting to win. Winning is not a goal in the NFL, it is a by-product of doing things right. Snyder has never gotten this, probably never will. Zorn's desire to win this year, not only did not end up with a playoff berth, but laid almost no groundwork for the future. On paper, the Skins should be worse off next year. We should expect to see veterans leave and FA come in. A whole new aged offensive line, new coordinators, older Portis with no new RB blood for the future, a new FA WR (which means Malcolm Kelly is still at the back of the line without ever seeing what he can do on the field), same QB (with the same problems, therefore the same excuses for his supporters), etc. Meaning 2008 was just another year in the Danny era and Zorn was just another overseer, not a coach. Expect the usual in 2009, 7-9 to 9-7.

[Skinsinparadise]

I can't judge a playcaller in one season. I need to see patterns over a span of two or three seasons to form an opinion. I don't really give a rat's ass about what the ex-jocks-in-the-media think when they second guess.

It's not inconceivable to me that Zorn improves as a play caller next season. My hunch is he doesn't. But hopefully my hunch is wrong. IMO I just don't think he has the humility in that role to improve. Odd thing for me about Zorn is I do think he's personally a humble and really nice guy. But as a head football coach he strikes me as strangely arrogant (not a nasty arrogant but naive arrogant)for a novice in this role

It's hard to put my finger on it but something about Zorn seems off to me. And Portis' description of him being more or less arrogant and all over place and that he contradicts himself in terms of what he wants from the players, registers with me as plausible.

Keep in mind if you go back and read the media articles and blogs from the Portis incident if I recall at least two of them said some players quietly backed Portis statements. And I've heard twice now in an interview, Kendall, who seems to be one of our smarter players, rolling his eyes in an interview and saying yeah the problem is always execution.

To my eyes Zorn seems like a nice guy, but at the same time displays some arrogant and insecure tendencies. He's sort of a walking contradiction that I don't think is contrived but its just part of his off beat personality.

He says he's all about staying medium. But he appears only medium at times. On the Redskins sidelines, he is probably the most up and down emotional coach, I've seen in my lifetime -- not exactly stay medium. Heck he can go off on a reporter on a press conference or get snippy on talk radio.

He's very Norv Turnish is the sense of throwing players under the bus for losses -- pretty much every press conference is look guys its not me not me not me, it's THEM! All of which does seem pretty insecure and non leader like.

And Portis' hit that he is all over the place and doesn't seem to know what he wants and blames the player if the play went wrong even though they did as they were asked -- does that really seem far fetched considering how Zorn engages in the media, and how his personality is far from always being reflective of his words?

[RocketCitySkins]

And Portis' hit that he is all over the place and doesn't seem to know what he wants and blames the player if the play went wrong even though they did as they were asked -- does that really seem far fetched considering how Zorn engages in the media, and how his personality far from always reflects his words?

JC said almost these same exact words in one of his last pressers. He said, "you don't do what you do, you do what you're asked to do."

I completely agree with what you are saying. Something doesn't add up. Like putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. Or in our case maybe 3.

[Oldfan]

And Portis' hit that he is all over the place and doesn't seem to know what he wants and blames the player if the play went wrong even though they did as they were asked -- does that really seem far fetched considering how Zorn engages in the media, and how his personality is far from always being reflective of his words?

It would surprise me if 53 players had the same opinion of Jim Zorn's coaching style. I'm not the least bit interested in Clinton Portis's opinions. When things aren't going well during a season, there will be players lacking character who will step up and start pointing fingers. On our team, you can bet that Clinton will be the first.

It's this simple for me. If Jim Zorn wins football games, you'll hear nothing but praise. If he doesn't, everybody will have their pet theories about his failings. I think the man has the potential to be a fine football coach, but I haven't seen enough to be sure of anything.

[#98QBKiller]

Absolutely second this. Oldfan is right, we do need to hold onto Zorn -- but for reasons far more important than the work he's done on JC's mechanics (although that is important in its own right). Holding onto Zorn gives us some continuity. Continuity will do a lot for this offense next year. A second season figuring out who goes where, and as Pete Kendall said just recently, understanding the "verbiage" of this WCO should produce better results than we've just seen.

Personally I'd like to see Zorn relinquish one of his hats next year, however. Head coach/playcaller/QB coach is a bit much, especially given his inexperience at two of those levels. I would love it if they brought in a West Coast OC to call the shots; he and JZ could game-plan and then he could direct the attack from the booth within the parameters set by Zorn. That would free a little of his attention up to perhaps be more aggressive and creative in his schemes, as well as leaving him more time to spend in attention to detail re: his QB and the team during games.

Maybe that way we don't have as many clock/game situation mishaps next year. Maybe that way Jason finally takes the next step from game manager to game changer.

I definitely agree with this. If Zorn could hire one more assistant offensive coach to help him out I think he could spend more time on repairing our offensive scheme and working one-on-one with the QBs.

I really think he's trying to do too much right now and that could hurt him down the road.

[Oldfan]

I definitely agree with this. If Zorn could hire one more assistant offensive coach to help him out I think he could spend more time on repairing our offensive scheme and working one-on-one with the QBs.

We aren't in a position to judge the quality of Chris Meidt's work, but his Math degree is a clue that the man has the brainpower to handle more responsibilty as he gains NFL experience.

[#98QBKiller]

We aren't in a position to judge the quality of Chris Meidt's work, but his Math degree is a clue that the man has the brainpower to handle more responsibilty as he gains NFL experience.

So you think we should leave things as is for another season (with regard to Zorn having so many responsibilities)?

[The Mayor]

Seeing as Snyder still stubbornly refuses to cease with the Cerrato nepotism, and continues to have a major impact in all aspects on the football side, thus ending any chance of anyone with any serious credibility coming here to Coach, we may as well have continuity with Coach Zorn.

Unfortunately, I agree with this. If Snyder is too pig-headed to relinquish control to a G.M. then the next best thing is continuity. We will likely see some improvement in the offense, but not enough to propel the Reskins into anything special.

As for Campbell, I expect hiim to improve this offseaon, but not enough to be special, only serviceable [iMHO]. The areas that are difficult [impossible?] to coach are Jason's weakest links, anticipating when and where to make the throw and the accuracy to put the ball exactly where it needs to be.

[Oldfan]

So you think we should leave things as is for another season (with regard to Zorn having so many responsibilities)?

I meant that maybe Zorn could delegate more of his responsibilities to Meidt, who now has a year of NFL experience under his belt, rather than hiring a new assistant.

As an example, Zorn was particularly weak in clock managment situations this season. While Zorn has to think one play ahead, Meidt could be checking the clock and thinking several plays ahead. The strategies for most of these situations can be worked out well in advance and charted for Sunday.

[Skinsinparadise]

It would surprise me if 53 players had the same opinion of Jim Zorn's coaching style. I'm not the least bit interested in Clinton Portis's opinions. When things aren't going well during a season, there will be players lacking character who will step up and start pointing fingers. On our team, you can bet that Clinton will be the first.

It's this simple for me. If Jim Zorn wins football games, you'll hear nothing but praise. If he doesn't, everybody will have their pet theories about his failings. I think the man has the potential to be a fine football coach, but I haven't seen enough to be sure of anything.

For me Zorn kind of comes across a little spacy and to some degree inarticulate in press conferences. When I combine that with the contradictions of what he says versus his actions as I pointed out in this thread, watch the offense sputter, and the players complaints -- it doesn't seem far fetched to me that he is going to flop.

The reason why I mentioned some of the ex-player comments like Brian Mitchell, Doc Walker, etc is because heck i am not a professional so am curious as to what some professionals who actually played in NFL offenses say and for the most part they echo my thoughts. I didn't mention for example guys like Czaben who say Zorn's playbook reminds him of a "high school team" -- Czaben isn't a professional football guy so he's shooting from the hip like we are.

[Oldfan]

For me Zorn kind of comes across a little spacy and to some degree inarticulate in press conferences. When I combine that with the contradictions of what he says versus his actions as I pointed out in this thread, watch the offense sputter, and the players complaints -- it doesn't seem far fetched to me that he is going to flop.

The reason why I mentioned some of the ex-player comments like Brian Mitchell, Doc Walker, etc is because heck i am not a professional so am curious as to what some professionals who actually played in NFL offenses say and for the most part they echo my thoughts. I didn't mention for example guys like Czaben who say Zorn's playbook reminds him of a "high school team" -- Czaben isn't a professional football guy so he's shooting from the hip like we are.

I pretty much ignore what people say and base most of my opinions on what I see. I have Zorn pegged as a perfectionist. Lombardi and Paul Brown were perfectionists. They had small playbooks. They practiced the same plays to the point of monotony. Their theory was that, if the play was run right, it was impossible to stop. Paul Brown insisted that the ball should make six rotations when the QB pitched out.

This explains why Z stayed with the same vanilla scheme (why get fancy when they can't execute vanilla properly?) and why the rookies had to earn their way onto the field by executing their assignment properly in practices.

Like Lombardi, he's a believer in ball control and playing the field position game. Like Walsh, when his offense gets up to speed, he'll primarily use quick, short passes to accomplish these goals instead of the run.

[zoony]

Come on, zoony. He's not as good as many posters think, because he often throws it too flat, but he's above average.

I can only think of one good long ball this season- to Santana against NO. There might have been one or two others- but which QBs in the league with a comparable number of attempts had fewer big plays? And you can't say it is scheme either.

Every other long ball has been either a poor decision (i.e. throwing into double coverage), a terribly inaccurate ball (the easy TD to Santana against Dallas that Santana had to stop and wait for so Newman could catch up) or not thrown at all for some reason- even when its there. Most likely because he cannot read coverage.

A good long ball is 90% decision making and 10% ability at the pro-level.

[fansince62]

I pretty much ignore what people say and base most of my opinions on what I see. I have Zorn pegged as a perfectionist. Lombardi and Paul Brown were perfectionists. They had small playbooks. They practiced the same plays to the point of monotony. Their theory was that, if the play was run right, it was impossible to stop. Paul Brown insisted that the ball should make six rotations when the QB pitched out.

This explains why Z stayed with the same vanilla scheme (why get fancy when they can't execute vanilla properly?) and why the rookies had to earn their way onto the field by executing their assignment properly in practices.

Like Lombardi, he's a believer in ball control and playing the field position game. Like Walsh, when his offense gets up to speed, he'll primarily use quick, short passes to accomplish these goals instead of the run.

he better hope then that we eventually realize a dominant defense - not bend and stop - with a no kidding pass rush to slow quick strike offenses.

[Oldfan]

I can only think of one good long ball this season- to Santana against NO. There might have been one or two others- but which QBs in the league with a comparable number of attempts had fewer big plays? And you can't say it is scheme either.

Every other long ball has been either a poor decision (i.e. throwing into double coverage), a terribly inaccurate ball (the easy TD to Santana against Dallas that Santana had to stop and wait for so Newman could catch up) or not thrown at all for some reason- even when its there. Most likely because he cannot read coverage.

A good long ball is 90% decision making and 10% ability at the pro-level.

Most posters criticising Campbell complain that he isn't taking enough shots downfield. You're griping that he doesn't hit as many as other QBs making the same number of attempts. Where do you find those stats to support your position?

I don't recall many attempts, of those, most were near misses -- passes that were defended well that bounced off the receiver's hands. In 2007, Brady threw several times into double coverage, but Moss went up and got it anyway.

I recall Campbell under-throwing Moss once because he had to first avoid the rush, reset and then couldn't get enough on the ball.

[Oldfan]

he better hope then that we eventually realize a dominant defense - not bend and stop - with a no kidding pass rush to slow quick strike offenses.

That's the other half of the problem. It beats me why the so-called football experts understand the advantages of a ball control offense, but cannot find fault with the bend-but-don't-break defensive strategy which allows the opponent to play ball control. Playing passive defense makes no sense to me.

I've been watching Norv's Chargers. Since Ron Rivera took over the defense midway in the season, they are giving up six fewer points per game. He just has them playing more aggressively, taking some calculated risks.

[Skinsinparadise]

I pretty much ignore what people say and base most of my opinions on what I see. I have Zorn pegged as a perfectionist. Lombardi and Paul Brown were perfectionists. They had small playbooks. They practiced the same plays to the point of monotony. Their theory was that, if the play was run right, it was impossible to stop. Paul Brown insisted that the ball should make six rotations when the QB pitched out.

This explains why Z stayed with the same vanilla scheme (why get fancy when they can't execute vanilla properly?) and why the rookies had to earn their way onto the field by executing their assignment properly in practices.

Like Lombardi, he's a believer in ball control and playing the field position game. Like Walsh, when his offense gets up to speed, he'll primarily use quick, short passes to accomplish these goals instead of the run.

What's so complicated about running some crossing patterns up the middle or some longer come back patterns? The Zorn 5 yards hitches, curls, slants and dump offs with hardly throwing the ball more than 15 yards strikes me more of a game philosophy but who knows what's going through Zorn's head.

Doc Walker's point though he doesn't make it that harshly is more or less isn't it somewhat incumbent on the offensive coordinator to get his players up to speed as opposed to complaining in press conferences that they aren't up to speed? I take Doc who played in professional offenses and worked with offensive coordinators at least a little seriously on this point.

And I agree with you about people complaining about Campbell not connecting enough on deep throws, Campbell isn't throwing downfield much so the chances aren't there -- it strikes me that Zorn doesn't like to throw the ball much downfield. That's one of Brian Mitchell's complaints about him. Mine too.

[Oldfan]

Doc Walker's point though he doesn't make it that harshy is more or less isn't it somewhat incumbent on the offensive coordinator to get his players up to speed as opposed to complaining in press conferences that they aren't up to speed? I take Doc who played in professional offenses and worked with offensive coordinators at least a little seriously on this point.

Zorn's comments about players not being ready didn't register with me as complaints, merely statements of fact. As a fan, I appreciate the information.

As to why they weren't up to speed, he didn't give me enough information to allow me to form an opinion on blame. Is the scheme too difficult? Are the assistant coaches teaching it poorly? Are the players dumb? Is it a combination of all three?

[fansince62]

That's the other half of the problem. It beats me why the so-called football experts understand the advantages of a ball control offense, but cannot find fault with the bend-but-don't-break defensive strategy which allows the opponent to play ball control. Playing passive defense makes no sense to me.

I've been watching Norv's Chargers. Since Ron Rivera took over the defense midway in the season, they are giving up six fewer points per game. He just has them playing more aggressively, taking some calculated risks.

yup!

[#98QBKiller]

I meant that maybe Zorn could delegate more of his responsibilities to Meidt, who now has a year of NFL experience under his belt, rather than hiring a new assistant.

As an example, Zorn was particularly weak in clock managment situations this season. While Zorn has to think one play ahead, Meidt could be checking the clock and thinking several plays ahead. The strategies for most of these situations can be worked out well in advance and charted for Sunday.

I definitely agree with that.

[fansince62]

Zorn's comments about players not being ready didn't register with me as complaints, merely statements of fact. As a fan, I appreciate the information.

As to why they weren't up to speed, he didn't give me enough information to allow me to form an opinion on blame. Is the scheme too difficult? Are the assistant coaches teaching it poorly? Are the players dumb? Is it a combination of all three?

Old..these dudes are paid a lot money....there are no excuses for not being able to execute plays as designed.

[Oldfan]

Old..these dudes are paid a lot money....there are no excuses for not being able to execute plays as designed.

Nah. If somebody was dumb enough to pay big bucks for a college beast with a 56 IQ, it's not going to make the beast any smarter.

Coaches get paid too.

[abdcskins]

We have to hold onto Zorn simply for stability's sake. Could you imagine the players having to learn another system? We've had so much turnover the past decade that it is necessary to give him at least 2 years imo, even if he may seem to not be the guy. That may sound weird but it's true.

[DieselPwr44]

Could you imagine the players having to learn another system? We've had so much turnover the past decade that it is necessary to give him at least 2 years imo, even if he may seem to not be the guy. That may sound weird but it's true.

This is such mularkey. Year in and year out players change teams and systems in the NFL.

Only when players come to the Washington Redskins, do we get the worn out excuse that they need 2-3 years to learn the system BS.....especially when it comes to offense.

Once again, Gregg Williams' defense was regarded around the league as being complicated,with various packages and exotic blitzes,yet performed as a top three unit in 2004 in it's first season of implementation.

The whole "learn the system BS" is just another excuse for ineptitude. And that goes for both players and coaches.:2cents: