Campbell vs. E.Manning Statistical Comparison

[pilsburypgh]

For the record, I wasn't making the argument that Campbell is a better QB. My point was the difference in the age of offensive lines. You can twist my words or numbers, the fact remains that the Giants have maintained a younger, healthier offensive line. Like it or not, instinct or no, that has a substantial effect on the all-around level of play.

Comparing TDs is a worthwhile stat, but like everything else, that has flaws as well. How much of the first 2 playoff runs were on Tiki's shoulders, not Eli's? How many plays of 25+ yards? The reason the Giants could make the deep throws that got Eli all those TDs (and Ints) is the set of younger, stronger lineman giving him (and his receivers) the time.

Im sick of hearing how bad the OLINE played, our Oline is not that bad, cmon dude we played against big time defenses Pittsburgh and the ravens get after the QB no matter who they are playing. You are gonna get pressure. In cases like that you need good QBs. Just look at how the steelers lost. They pressured Eli and Peyton but if you would watch other games you would have seen that both these QBs made big time throws down the stretch. They hung in there like franchise QBs do. Its funny cause our oline held up well against the weaker defenses like the bungles and what happend? huh? we got the same results! That tells me it aint the Oline its the players around it like the QB who aint gettin it done.

[Mad Mike]

I don't think I'll ever understand how people ignore stats, since numbers don't lie. Opinions are like *******s, everyone has one and most of em stink, so stats/numbers are the best way to gauge a player.

It's not always definite, but if you follow the numbers, JC may very well lead us to the SB with some help from the FO.

The idea that stats can predict the future is just idiotic. They can point to one possible outcome they cannot predict every one.

Is it possible that Campbell will become the next Eli Manning? Sure. It's also possible that monkeys will fly out of my ass. Chances are though that Campbell has reached his peak. The tape does not lie. He is slow to make decisions. He is slow in the pocket, and slow to deliver the ball. THe man is a deer in headlights out there. Anyone remember a few weeks ago when Campbell was chased out of the pocket and running for the sidelines? I thought "good, now throw the ball away" Did he? NO. Instead of an easy dump out of bounds he held on to the ball for a sack and a big loss of yards. DUMB!

There is a reason Eli was a the first pick in his draft and Campbell was the 25th. Eli comes from THE QB family with more football knowledge at his beck and call than most coaching staffs combined. Eli was considered THE closest thing to a sure thing to maybe EVER come into the NFL.

The only reason Jason is still the QB is because we gave up a 1st, 3rd, and 4th round pick to get him. That's it. That's why we have given him so many chances and why Zorn feels pressured to make him work out. God love him though, it looks like Gibbs made a mistake. The potential seemed to be there but Jason looks like he will never play at NFL speed.

Statistics? Statistics are for losers. The only statistic that matters is wins and loses. Tell me, how is Jason doing in that one?

[fire3fighter4]

A LOT of QB's are mediocre at this point and can compare to Eli's completion percentage and rating his first few years in the league but that does NOT mean they will be the next Eli!!!

THANK YOU!!!

I'm so tired of people comparing him to other QB's.

They say that X QB was good in their Y year so Campbell will be good too!!

Campbell is NOT these other QB's. Just because they improved DOES NOT mean Campbell will.

[KokoMike]

I understand the frustration of each and every Sunday. As a Redskins fan (and Orioles too), the fickle ownership and shortsightedness that come with are a known commodity. I groan with every dropped pass, fumbled ball, weakly hit kickoff, and mind-boggling roster move, but unlike many of you, I don't feel the need to string someone up for every mistake. At the beginning of the season, and for the rational among you, throughout this year, we agreed it would take time. Time for the players to adjust to Zorn, time for Campbell to adjust to the system, time for the fans to adjust to everything new. For those of you bemoaning the current state, yes, it is excruciating to watch, but we can't forsake the forest for the proverbial trees.

So...I decided to use our hated rival up the road as an example. We all remember the calls for Coughlin's head, the outcries of blood vendettas against the Manning family, and the drama that accompanied a premier runningback's public feud with his coach. Well, here are some numbers comparing Manning to our much-discussed QB. As a statistical sidenote, the rush yds/gm and average age of OL are compiled using the top 2-3 RBs and the averaged age of all OLs on the roster. This was an attempt to account for use of different formations, development of younger talent, etc. It is by no means perfect, but here goes...

Year1 Comp% Yds/gm Rtg OLage Rushyds/gm

JC 53.14% 185.9 76.5 28.6 104.81

EM 44.22% 149 55.4 26 106.06

Year2

JC 59.95% 207.7 77.6 30.3 99.81

EM 52.78% 235.1 75.9 27.8 130.1

Year3

JC 62.98% 210.4 85.7 29.3 108.1

EM 57.66% 202.8 77.0 27.0 130.3

08EM 60.28% 209.9 86.4 28.0 123.9

The last (08EM) are this year's numbers.

It's been said that numbers don't lie. What is, perhaps, more appropriate is that numbers don't tell the whole truth. Leadership, for example, is absent from statistics. I am aware of this and am not offering this comparison to say "Yes, if we give JC more time, he will win a Super Bowl in his Xth season." What I am saying is that JC's numbers have consistently been equal to or better than EM's with a universally older line and a weaker running attack.

My conclusions:

As QBs, JC and EM have had similar developmental patterns statistically. The NYG have made a concerted effort to maintain youth at the OL positions, while the Skins have maintained the same core, effectively aging the same group. This not only has a direct effect on the time for pass protection, but also matters a great deal with regard to the running game. As our OL ages, injuries and subs force plays overwhelmingly in one direction. Predictability has been a constantly invoked complaint and it seems obvious why. Maintaining the younger offensive line, the NYG not only give EM more time in the pocket to improve as a passer, but adapt and create different directions of play. Similarly, the success of the varied running attack creates more options for QB. I know I'm preaching basic football to the choir, but the NYG FO stood strong in the face of its ugly, menacing fans and kept both Coughlin and Manning on board and gave the support. Were we to follow a similar strategy of reducing the average age of our OL and vary our running attack more than just playing LB when CP is hurt/tired/feuding, we might see the leadership qualities and improved play that didn't come out until the 2nd half of the NYG season last year.

The type of leadership qualities you are referring to, in my opinion, are deep, psychological characteristics. JC either has them, or he doesn't.

Regarding your fandom for both the Skins and Orioles, I am going to ask you and others of that ilk to refrain from cheering the "O" during the national anthem at Fedex Field. It had some positive trait many years ago when the Orioles organization was a class act. These days, when I hear it, I say what the **** are these people doing (unless you are sharing your own baseball misery with suffering fans).

It could be a reason why the Skins start so slow.

[pilsburypgh]

The idea that stats can predict the future is just idiotic. They can point to one possible outcome they cannot predict every one.

Is it possible that Campbell will become the next Eli Manning? Sure. It's also possible that monkeys will fly out of my ass. Chances are though that Campbell has reached his peak. The tape does not lie. He is slow to make decisions. He is slow in the pocket, and slow to deliver the ball. THe man is a deer in headlights out there. Anyone remember a few weeks ago when Campbell was chased out of the pocket and running for the sidelines? I thought "good, now throw the ball away" Did he? NO. Instead of an easy dump out of bounds he held on to the ball for a sack and a big loss of yards. DUMB!

There is a reason Eli was a the first pick in his draft and Campbell was the 25th. Eli comes from THE QB family with more football knowledge at his beck and call than most coaching staffs combined. Eli was considered THE closest thing to a sure thing to maybe EVER come into the NFL.

The only reason Jason is still the QB is because we gave up a 1st, 3rd, and 4th round pick to get him. That's it. That's why we have given him so many chances and why Zorn feels pressured to make him work out. God love him though, it looks like Gibbs made a mistake. The potential seemed to be there but Jason looks like he will never play at NFL speed.

Statistics? Statistics are for losers. The only statistic that matters is wins and loses. Tell me, how is Jason doing in that one?

I cant believe we gave up so much to get JC man, This had to be one of the dumbest moves by gibbs. JC only threw 20tds with 7 pics his final season at auburn. Thats with one of the best backfields in college history. I dont even think they were even playing the pass. Thats awful. Campbell is way too slow to react, hes so slow that when he gets pressured, he doesent react to it till its too late then he gets sacked. Hes so mentally slow that he doesent even get to scramble and use his legs too much cause he reacts too late, his drop back is super awful, while hes taking his 8 step drop the wrs arent really open which means he doesnt get to see the whole field even if he wanted too. man theres so many other things about this guy i just dont feel like typing a whole page right now. LOL

[KokoMike]

It wasn't Gibbs, as I remember. Jason Campbell is a Snyder discovery.

[RAAZ227]

When a team looses they blame their coach and QB. I think 'skins fans need to go higher up!

[NawtyMagazine]

i like comparing apples to oranges

[jivelikenice]

It wasn't Gibbs, as I remember. Jason Campbell is a Snyder discovery.

Look...There's a lot to blame Snyder for but this isn't one of them. Jason was a Gibbs pick. There is no arguing that. What should be telling to all is that although Campbell was Gibbs' guy, he was not ready to hand the job back to JC this season.

[Arlington Supper Club]

People are missing a very, very important aspect. Manning has been in the same offensive system ever since he has been with the Giants. JC has be unfortunate to go through so many different systems. WE HAVE TO GIVE HE and ZORN A CHANCE!!! We can't keep exploring offenses with Campbell! The Redskins will never go ANYWHERE if we keep doing this! There needs to be some consistency with him. Colt it NOT the answer (I am not saying you are proposing that but many are).

How do you think the numbers would look if JC stayed in the same offense ever sine he was drafted?? We can't look at Campbell, this all goes back to Danny boy and Vinny!

Didn't mean to get OT

HTTR!

so having different systems makes you think that a 3 yard pass on 3rd and 10 is a good thing.

ALL systems are based on the fact that a first down IS TEN YARDS DOWN THE FIELD!

[jivelikenice]

Just curious? What was the excuse for JC's decline in play in '07 prior to the injury? That was the second full season in the system and instead of making straides and improving as the season went on, his play regressed much like it has this season? Any answers from the JC defenders?

Week 12-rating of 68 v. Tampa with 1 TD/ 2 picks and a fumble lost (13 total pts)

Week 13- rating of 62 v. Bills with 0 TD's/ 1 pick and a fumble lost (16 total pts)

Week 14- rating of 80 v. Chicago (No points prior to injury in mid 2nd quarter)

Yet somehow we put up 24 pts in a little more than 2 quarters with a backup qb? Can anyone explain this?

[Enzo]

Match Cambell's career against the appropriate stage in Eli's career and see who has more TD's (thus points) per game. Meaning who contributes more heavily to his offense's production, to the scores his offense puts up.

Eli is a TD machine. He's been one since his second year. Peyton Manning was a TD machine since year one and never looked back, he simply started throwing EVEN MORE TDs and fewer interceptions.

The pulse of an offense is its point production. Having Jason Campbell lead your offense is the equivalent to putting a shotgun to the offense's heart and pulling the trigger BABY.

Any other masochists want to defend Campbell?

Anyone else want the heartbeat of our offense to remain in an endless flatline?

If so, vote Campbell. :point2sky

Wrong, Wrong, & Wrong Again. The heart beat of any offense is the O-Line. If the O-Line stinks then everything else on offense suffers. The Giants & Eli have had better success than the Redskins & Campbell because the Giants offensive line is so much better. From years of watching football I can say with certainty that if Campbell played for the Giants his numbers would be far greater than Eli's are. If Eli played on this current Redskins team he would be considered a below average QB. Eli gets alot of credit for what he is not just because of his last name. If I was starting a team & my first player to choice was my QB. I would take Jason Campbell over Eli Manning everytime. Don't forget that Campbell has had to learn a different offense every year he has played for the Redskins.

Another thing, someone who is as queer for Eli as you are shouldn't be calling anybody masochist.

[krsone]

Wrong, Wrong, & Wrong Again. The heart beat of any offense is the O-Line. If the O-Line stinks then everything else on offense suffers. The Giants & Eli have had better success than the Redskins & Campbell because the Giants offensive line is so much better. From years of watching football I can say with certainty that if Campbell played for the Giants his numbers would be far greater than Eli's are. If Eli played on this current Redskins team he would be considered a below average QB. Eli gets alot of credit for what he is not just because of his last name. If I was starting a team & my first player to choice was my QB. I would take Jason Campbell over Eli Manning everytime. Don't forget that Campbell has had to learn a different offense every year he has played for the Redskins.

Another thing, someone who is as queer for Eli as you are shouldn't be calling anybody masochist.

LOL. funniest post ever.

[taylorcoreskin]

Wrong, Wrong, & Wrong Again. The heart beat of any offense is the O-Line. If the O-Line stinks then everything else on offense suffers. The Giants & Eli have had better success than the Redskins & Campbell because the Giants offensive line is so much better. From years of watching football I can say with certainty that if Campbell played for the Giants his numbers would be far greater than Eli's are. If Eli played on this current Redskins team he would be considered a below average QB. Eli gets alot of credit for what he is not just because of his last name. If I was starting a team & my first player to choice was my QB. I would take Jason Campbell over Eli Manning everytime. Don't forget that Campbell has had to learn a different offense every year he has played for the Redskins.

Another thing, someone who is as queer for Eli as you are shouldn't be calling anybody masochist.

LOL. funniest post ever.

I agree with krsone, likely for a different reason though. The post is funny because Enzo has unknowingly made a complete fool of himself. Well done sir.

[jivelikenice]

Wrong, Wrong, & Wrong Again. The heart beat of any offense is the O-Line. If the O-Line stinks then everything else on offense suffers. The Giants & Eli have had better success than the Redskins & Campbell because the Giants offensive line is so much better. From years of watching football I can say with certainty that if Campbell played for the Giants his numbers would be far greater than Eli's are. If Eli played on this current Redskins team he would be considered a below average QB. Eli gets alot of credit for what he is not just because of his last name. If I was starting a team & my first player to choice was my QB. I would take Jason Campbell over Eli Manning everytime. Don't forget that Campbell has had to learn a different offense every year he has played for the Redskins.

Another thing, someone who is as queer for Eli as you are shouldn't be calling anybody masochist.

Wait, so when the Vikes had a great o-line and running game in '06 & '07, what was the problem? Why couldn't they put up points? The O-line is a important and must be improved upon but the QB is the KEY. Look at the Cowboys. They have a solid O-line but were WORTHLESS without Romo sits to pee.

Going back to the Bengals game, Campbell did not get sacked ONCE!! What was the problem this week? Is it always something or someone else's fault with JC??

Btw, still looking for an explanation of this:

Just curious? What was the excuse for JC's decline in play in '07 prior to the injury? That was the second full season in the system and instead of making straides and improving as the season went on, his play regressed much like it has this season? Any answers from the JC defenders?

Week 12-rating of 68 v. Tampa with 1 TD/ 2 picks and a fumble lost (13 total pts)

Week 13- rating of 62 v. Bills with 0 TD's/ 1 pick and a fumble lost (16 total pts)

Week 14- rating of 80 v. Chicago (No points prior to injury in mid 2nd quarter)

Yet somehow we put up 24 pts in a little more than 2 quarters with a backup qb? Can anyone explain this?

[taylorcoreskin]

Wait, so when the Vikes had a great o-line and running game in '06 & '07, what was the problem? Why couldn't they put up points? The O-line is a important and must be improved upon but the QB is the KEY. Look at the Cowboys. They have a solid O-line but were WORTHLESS without Romo sits to pee.

Going back to the Bengals game, Campbell did not get sacked ONCE!! What was the problem this week? Is it always something or someone else's fault with JC??

Btw, still looking for an explanation of this:

Just curious? What was the excuse for JC's decline in play in '07 prior to the injury? That was the second full season in the system and instead of making straides and improving as the season went on, his play regressed much like it has this season? Any answers from the JC defenders?

Week 12-rating of 68 v. Tampa with 1 TD/ 2 picks and a fumble lost (13 total pts)

Week 13- rating of 62 v. Bills with 0 TD's/ 1 pick and a fumble lost (16 total pts)

Week 14- rating of 80 v. Chicago (No points prior to injury in mid 2nd quarter)

Yet somehow we put up 24 pts in a little more than 2 quarters with a backup qb? Can anyone explain this?

I wonder if someone like Enzo is even worth enlightening. I applaud you for your benevolence in making an attempt to enlighten someone whose merit for insight is far from obvious.

[jivelikenice]

I agree we need a youth movement on the O-line but where was this coaching staff, never mind the front office going to make changes? We have a young interior lineman in Reinhart that we drafted sitting on the bench but this coaching staff wouldn't dare bench a vet. We have needs at receiver, o-line, and d-line yet we see Thrash play ahead of Thomas and Kelly, Jansen of Heyer, and no signs of Chris Wilson or Rob Jackson...WHY???? This isn't the front office, this is the coaching staff!!!! Our staff is so damn afraid to play a rookie that they have stunted the growth of the young players on this team.

(Regarding Reinhart, to be fair, I can't really blame the coaches for not playing him because because Kendall has actually played well in his position.)

And as for us fans, God forbid a rookie makes a mistake cause we're all over them then calling screaming at them that they're a bust.

[GoDeep81]

To all the guys that love Campbell so much, has he really shown you something that makes you think he could be one of the greats?? Honestly? I like the guy too.. I liked him early last year and again early this year.. But he just doesnt get any better.. He actually seems to be getting worse!! Do you guys really think he has what it takes, or are you just fed up with the rebuilding process and think he's "good enough" so lets not mess with it?? Cause I dont see it.. Even with the opposing defense chasing him about the field, he never shows the signs of "oh man, if this guy had some blocking he'd be one of the greats" that you can see in other QB's who are in a similar situation as him.. His mechanics, his "INSTINCT", his accuracy, his leadership, his ABILITY TO WIN GAMES just isn't there.. Were hurting right now.. We need to get better, obviously, why not start with a new QB, who perhaps MAY exhibit some of the great traits that you see out of NATURAL quarterbacks?? There just might be one sitting on our bench. But if we never give him the chance we'll never know.. I think JC has had plenty of time to show us he's the man for the job, and for whatever the reason, he just never quite gets it done.. And I dont think the team looks to him as a leader.. A team needs a QB who they feel can win the game for them (even if he can't, he needs to be able to make them think he can) And JC just doenst seem to posess those qualities..

[Skins_Throwback]

Here's some STATS for you...

Campbell's career numbers at Auburn:

45 td's

24 int's

67 sacks

Now I ask, are these NFL star quarterback stats coming from college? Do you guys not see a pattern that has carried over from college to his Pro career?

67 sacks? Are you kidding me? Only 45 td's during his whole college career? Divide all those numbers above by 4. Looks very similar to what he's done at Washington each year.

on average, 11 td's, 6 int's, 17 sacks a year in college. Hmmmmmmm

Campbell threw for 12td's thur 13 games last season under Gibbs. 11td's thur 13 games under Zorn.

Where's the improvement? There is none, he's capped out.

[ExoDus84]

Did you just not one to post the TD/INT comparison for giggles or because it doesn't support your point?

Year 1

E M 6 tds 9 int

J C 10 tds 6 int

Year 2

E M 24 tds 17 int

J C 12 tds 11 int

Year 3

E M 24 tds 18 int

J C 12 tds 6 int (given that this is partial for JC we can extrapolate this out for the remaining two games)

14 tds 7 int

In their first 3 years Manning had thrown 54 tds and 44 ints. Campbell has thrown, including projection 36 tds and 24 ints.

Going a step further we can look at when their multi touchdown games have come, did they put their team on their back to win it without any other help?

Campbell has 8 games out of 34 where he has thrown for more than one touchdown. Of those 8 he had 2 games where the net rushing of the team was below 100 yards, lost both of those games.

In comparison Manning has 15 games out of 41 where he has thrown for more than one touchdown. Of those 15 he had 6 games where the net rushing of the team was below 100 yards he's 3 and 3 in those games.

Eli also attempted 1,276 passes in his first three years JC 1,067. Eli dropped back 209 more times than JC. He was also sacked 75 times as opposed to 62 by JC.

Eli has had more on his plate than JC and had less help from the D. In his first 3 years the Giants defense ranked 13, 24 and 25. JC's defense 31, 8 and 5.

JC has produced less with more than Eli. I hate bagging on JC and lift Eli up but its the truth, right? Stats don't lie?

Bravo. Great post! :applause::applause:

Fact is, Campbell has never put up good TD numbers, all the way back to college.

Per ESPN, Jason Campbell:

Auburn 2001: 4 TD, 4 INT, 9 games, Record: 6-3, 124 yds/game

Auburn 2002: 11 TD, 5 INT, 10 games, Record: 7-3, 121 yds/game

Auburn 2003: 10 TD, 8 INT, 12 games, Record: 7-5, 188 yds/game

Auburn 2004: 20 TD, 7 INT (only 20, with the best rushing attack in the nation), 12 games, Record: 12-0, 225 yds/game

Washington 2006: 10 TD, 6 INT, 7 games, Record: 2-5, 185 yds/game

Washington 2007: 12 TD, 11 INT, 13 games, Record: 5-7, 207 yds/game

Washington 2008: 12 TD, 6 INT, 14 games, Record: 7-7, 210 yds/game

His yards/game average isnt horrendous, but he's only averaging 1.1 TDs/game, and his record as a pro starter is atrocious, 14-19. He's also regressing since his first year in terms of TD's. He put up 10 TD's in 7 games his first season, but only 2 more TD's this season, with twice as many games. Thats ridiculous.

He just isnt good enough to win games on his own. He cant carry the load by himself, or put the team on his shoulders. He has all the makings of a journeyman #2.

[CRAZYHORSE19682003]

Eli is also a leader, his team respects him, Eli will also throw the ball more than 10 yards down the field. In all fairness though Eli has a much better offensive line, a much better receiving core, equal running game, and even though Cooley is better than Shockey or Boss, Boss is pretty good, a better blocker than Cooley and a much bigger target.

Not to mention Eli has the benefit of having the Giant’s D. They get a lot of sacks and turnovers, Eli gets to work on a short field a lot more than Jason Campbell does.

Jason’s stats are a little misleading, because he consistently dumps it off it leads to an artificially inflated completion percentage. I would also like to see a comparison of their red zone numbers. I would be willing to bet Eli is much better than Campbell there.

[RedSunday]

Eli has led his team into the post season 4 straight years.

...............and to a Super bowl Championship and maybe the most exciting play in super bowl history.:cool:

[GoCommiesGo]

Bravo. Great post! :applause::applause:

Fact is, Campbell has never put up good TD numbers, all the way back to college.

Per ESPN, Jason Campbell:

Auburn 2001: 4 TD, 4 INT, 9 games, Record: 6-3, 124 yds/game

Auburn 2002: 11 TD, 5 INT, 10 games, Record: 7-3, 121 yds/game

Auburn 2003: 10 TD, 8 INT, 12 games, Record: 7-5, 188 yds/game

Auburn 2004: 20 TD, 7 INT (only 20, with the best rushing attack in the nation), 12 games, Record: 12-0, 225 yds/game

Washington 2006: 10 TD, 6 INT, 7 games, Record: 2-5, 185 yds/game

Washington 2007: 12 TD, 11 INT, 13 games, Record: 5-7, 207 yds/game

Washington 2008: 12 TD, 6 INT, 14 games, Record: 7-7, 210 yds/game

His yards/game average isnt horrendous, but he's only averaging 1.1 TDs/game, and his record as a pro starter is atrocious, 14-19. He's also regressing since his first year in terms of TD's. He put up 10 TD's in 7 games his first season, but only 2 more TD's this season, with twice as many games. Thats ridiculous.

He just isnt good enough to win games on his own. He cant carry the load by himself, or put the team on his shoulders. He has all the makings of a journeyman #2.

I broke down his senior season at Auburn and his numbers are absolutely horrendous.

I'd have to find the old post buy Brown and Williams combined for 20 tds and ran the ball something like 82% more than Campbell threw.

That supposed WCO his last year was not designed for JC he's always been a game manager, not someone who could lift his team and take them the distance. Sad but true.

[DCMONEY]

Manning's organiszation has been stable. The question I ask is would Manning be where Jason is if he'd been in his 4th offense in 5 years behind this line? Would any QB? A lot on this forum feel a QB should flourish behind an old line and playing in 4 offenses in 5 seasons. A lot feel this doesn't matter. I only ask that the same criteria applied to Jason be applied to all QB's.

[DCMONEY]

Here's some STATS for you...

Campbell's career numbers at Auburn:

45 td's

24 int's

67 sacks

Now I ask, are these NFL star quarterback stats coming from college? Do you guys not see a pattern that has carried over from college to his Pro career?

67 sacks? Are you kidding me? Only 45 td's during his whole college career? Divide all those numbers above by 4. Looks very similar to what he's done at Washington each year.

on average, 11 td's, 6 int's, 17 sacks a year in college. Hmmmmmmm

Campbell threw for 12td's thur 13 games last season under Gibbs. 11td's thur 13 games under Zorn.

Where's the improvement? There is none, he's capped out.

Look at Troy Aikman's career #'s. Average at best yet everyone calls him one of the most accurate QB's of all time. Troy managed his team with a good offensive line and strong running game. He never put up big td #'s. He only passed for 20td's once in his career and he's played with HOF type talent. Like Troy i've seen enough of jason to know that he can produce if given time. If Jason on a consistent basis has a running game and was given ample time to throw still f'd up I'd say everyone has a point but this team has too many holes to put everything on him.