Barack Obama's first action as President

[#98QBKiller]

"When it comes specifically to HIV/AIDS, the most important prevention is education, which should include -- which should include abstinence education and teaching the children -- teaching children, you know, that sex is not something casual. But it should also include -- it should also include other, you know, information about contraception because, look, I've got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD at the age of 16. You know, so it doesn't make sense to not give them information."

"I've got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. " - Barack Obama

Wow. He's starting to use the same language as MassSkinsFan. Babies being considered punishment for sleeping around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbZJYWjkAPo

About at the 36 second mark, he starts talking it.

And the problem with this quote is what? That he thinks it's important to teach kids about contraception in school so they don't end up with a baby or STD at the age of 16?

[zoony]

I believe there is a federal law banning partial birth abortions on the book.

I really don't know a whole lot about it, the circumstances where it is allowed, or even if it is legal in all states, etc.

All I know is that from what I've read about it I cannot believe that there is a medical procedure that exists for it. Unbelievable.

[Thiebear]

If Obama is elected I got club seats for one game probably in 2009 - its a lock.

My personal belief is Adoption not Abortion after the fetus is viable say 25weeks (EDIT)

Two words that are so close, yet so far apart. Only the infrastructure of both being broken is the same.

Are you a dop or a bor?

[Zguy28]

I really don't know a whole lot about it, the circumstances where it is allowed, or even if it is legal in all states, etc.

All I know is that from what I've read about it I cannot believe that there is a medical procedure that exists for it. Unbelievable.

I know Zoony. I share your disgust about it.

All one has to do is Google "DX abortion" and they can see for themselves.

[Zguy28]

If Obama is elected I got club seats for one game probably in 2009 - its a lock.

My personal belief is Adoption not Abortion after the fetus is viable say 53+ weeks

Two words that are so close, yet so far apart. Only the infrastructure of both being broken is the same.

Are you a dop or a bor?

53 weeks? Are you raising elephants?

[alexey]

Since you use the term "player hating", I'm assuming you're saying it will be a racial thing. (I could be misunderstanding).

If that's the case, it's a 100% copout. Being white didn't save Carter, Bush, or even Jefferson- who were some of the most "hated on" Presidents in history.

I did not see it as a racial thing... I am sure he'd qualify dislike for Bill Clinton as "player hating" as well

[skinsfan07]

Ahhh, The good old Freedom to Kill an innocent child act.

admirable of him

So if you had/have a daughter who was brutally raped and got pregnant as a result of the raping, you'd want her to keep the child and cherish it as her own?

Get real.

[EersSkins05]

That is a creative stance to take on his words. I posted his entire quote. He is clearly talking about education AND the ability to have abortions. They are not mutually exclusive, and he clearly indicates that he doesn't want his daughters to be "punished" for making a "mistake" even though they have been educated.

Oh come on, man. Even in this runaway train thread, you are REALLY reaching. Even CBN reported that the "punished" line was with regard to sex education. (He's obviously and irrefutably saying that his kids should be taught abstinence, but in the event they make a mistake by having sex, they should have the education to lessen the consequences of that mistake.)

He addresses abortion later in that same speech and has the quote:

"This is a very difficult issue, and I understand sort of the passions on both sides of the issue. I have two precious daughters - they are miracles."

Argue one way or the other, but please leave the ridiculous leaps in logic at the door.

[#98QBKiller]

And PS:

The source for this entire thread is a political smear ad from the FRC (Family Research Council)

Which according to Wiklipedia is a: "Christian right non-profit think tank and lobbying organization."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Research_Council

The FRC's current President, Tony Perkins has ties to David Duke (former KKK Grand Wizard) and the founder James Dobson refers to Roe v Wade as "The biggest Holocaust in world history"

Click link for full article:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050509/blumenthal

Senate majority leader Bill Frist appeared through a telecast as a speaker at "Justice Sunday," at the invitation of the event's main sponsor, Family Research Council president Tony Perkins. "Justice Sunday" was promoted as a rally to portray Democrats as being "against people of faith." Many of the speakers compared the plight of conservative Christians to the civil rights movement. But in sharing the stage with Perkins, who introduced him to the rally, Frist was associating himself with someone who has longstanding ties to racist organizations.

Four years ago, Perkins addressed the Louisiana chapter of the Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC), America's premier white supremacist organization, the successor to the White Citizens Councils, which battled integration in the South. In 1996 Perkins paid former Ku Klux Klan Grand Wizard David Duke $82,500 for his mailing list. At the time, Perkins was the campaign manager for a right-wing Republican candidate for the US Senate in Louisiana. The Federal Election Commission fined the campaign Perkins ran $3,000 for attempting to hide the money paid to Duke.

[TMK9973]

I read the quote- Seems to me he's saying we should educate teens about sex and contraceptives. that even if they make a mistake (Mistake being having Sex at a early age) he wants to make sure they use contraceptives so they don't get pregnant or get a STD....

How someone gets anything about Abortion out of that, I don't know. Obama IS pro-choice, so I don't think it matters, but on THIS quote he is clearly talking about sex ed.

[#98QBKiller]

A little more background info on the FRC:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=871#8

Family Research Council

WASHINGTON, D.C.

www.frc.org

In 1988, James Dobson's Focus on the Family mega-ministry merged with the Family Research Council (FRC), a tiny Washington think tank headed by Gary Bauer, a former Department of Education official. With Focus' millions behind it, FRC's profile shot up as Bauer brought Dobson's anti-gay, anti-abortion and anti-sex education messages to leaders on Capitol Hill.

When FRC's lobbying threatened Focus' tax-exempt status in 1992, the groups severed their legal ties. But by then, FRC had become a powerful group in its own right.

During the gays-in-the-military debate of 1993, Bauer wrote an influential op-ed alleging that gay people's "notion of 'civil rights' would mean a jackboot on the back of the 99 percent of society that still follows the norms of nature."

Robert Knight, FRC's chief anti-gay researcher during the 1990s (see also Concerned Women for America), claimed that the gay rights movement's main goal was "going after the kids."

Drawing liberally on the discredited research of Paul Cameron (see Family Research Institute), Knight published papers claiming, among other things, that gay people view "pedophiles as the 'prophets' of a new sexual order." FRC also cited Cameron's bogus claim that children in gay households are at greater risk of sexual involvement with a parent. In a legal brief, it even warned that schools offering diversity education could be sued for contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

The FRC led boycotts and protests when major corporations began to give domestic-partner benefits; in 1997, Knight lambasted American Airlines for its "immoral" benefits program, asking, "What are you going to develop next? A pedophilia market?"

Former Louisiana legislator Tony Perkins, a "family values" crusader who had given a speech to the white-supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens on May 19, 2001, took over the FRC's leadership in 2003. By then, the FRC was well established in Washington, with board members like Sen. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma, an OB/GYN who in his 2004 campaign falsely claimed that guards had to be posted inside some public school restrooms to protect girls from lesbian sex attacks.

The FRC's current senior fellow for cultural studies, Timothy Dailey, has taken over Knight's role as FRC's main anti-gay propagandist, comparing gays to "abnormal cells," co-authoring Getting It Straight, a "statistical" compendium of the "evils" of homosexuality, and penning Dark Obsession: The Tragedy and Threat of the Homosexual Lifestyle, yet another lurid FRC publication.

[Zguy28]

Oh come on, man. Even in this runaway train thread, you are REALLY reaching. Even CBN reported that the "punished" line was with regard to sex education. (He's obviously and irrefutably saying that his kids should be taught abstinence, but in the event they make a mistake by having sex, they should have the education to lessen the consequences of that mistake.)

He addresses abortion later in that same speech and has the quote:

"This is a very difficult issue, and I understand sort of the passions on both sides of the issue. I have two precious daughters - they are miracles."

Argue one way or the other, but please leave the ridiculous leaps in logic at the door.

Even if you throw out that quote, it doesn't change the original one I posted.

FOCA makes no distinction between physical and mental health when it comes to its non-interference clause regarding late-term abortions.

Now Alexey says Obama doesn't believe mental health is a legitimate reason for partial-birth abortion. But if I remember correctly isn't this a big issue for most pro-abortion folks and some of Obama's most ardent supporters?

[zoony]

Now Alexey says Obama doesn't believe mental health is a legitimate reason for partial-birth abortion. But if I remember correctly isn't this a big issue for most pro-abortion folks and some of Obama's most ardent supporters?

So what you're saying is, that if this is passed, mothers who are deemed to be mentally unhealthy would qualify to receive a partial birth abortion?

[BigMike619]

just the thought of it all turns my stomach and thank God my son was born healthy. I am so glad I have never been put in that situation.

[Zguy28]

A little more background info on the FRC:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=871#8

The SPLC, a very unbiased group.

Sorry, it doesn't change the words that came out of Obama's mouth.

[Zguy28]

So what you're saying is, that if this is passed, mothers who are deemed to be mentally unhealthy would qualify to receive a partial birth abortion?

I'm not saying they absolutely would everytime.

What I'm saying is there is nothing to stop a doctor from making a personal judgment call to abort late-term for this nebulous thing called "mental health."

EDIT:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.2020:

From the Freedom of Choice Act introduced in the senate in 2004:

( PROHIBITION OF INTERFERENCE- A government may not--

(1) deny or interfere with a woman's right to choose--

(A) to bear a child;

( to terminate a pregnancy prior to viability; or

© to terminate a pregnancy after viability where termination is necessary to protect the life or health of the woman

What does life or health mean here?

[zoony]

I'm not saying they absolutely would everytime.

What I'm saying is there is nothing to stop a doctor from making a personal judgment call to abort late-term for this nebulous thing called "mental health."

Well if the problem is mental, it seems like the child should be just put up for adoption. That is, if there is no physical threat to the mother.

[Zguy28]

Well if the problem is mental, it seems like the child should be just put up for adoption. That is, if there is no physical threat to the mother.

I agree.

[#98QBKiller]

The SPLC, a very unbiased group.

There's a big difference between accused political bias and having actual ties to hate groups such as the KKK. Good try though.

Sorry, it doesn't change the words that came out of Obama's mouth.

While speaking in front of Planned Parenthood. Has McCain never pandered to a specific group while speaking to them?

[EersSkins05]

Even if you throw out that quote, it doesn't change the original one I posted.

FOCA makes no distinction between physical and mental health when it comes to its non-interference clause regarding late-term abortions.

Now Alexey says Obama doesn't believe mental health is a legitimate reason for partial-birth abortion. But if I remember correctly isn't this a big issue for most pro-abortion folks and some of Obama's most ardent supporters?

A. I don't know a single person that is pro-abortion. Never met one. Never even heard of one. I know people that are pro-CHOICE, meaning that no matter your individual viewpoint on the morality of abortion (at any term), you don't think you have the right to tell another human what their decision should be.

(Sorry, but I had to point this out. I'm so sick of people on the right using the term "pro-abortion" as if anyone that supports a woman's right to choose also supports unmitigated slaughter of as many fetuses as possible.)

B. With regard to the issue of the mother's "health", legislative intent and meaning is a matter for the courts to interpret. If it seems like a stretch of the imagination to believe that partial birth abortions would be performed in the mother's mental health were in danger, that's probably because it is. As has been previously stated, to the degree that mental health issues would exist rendering the birth of a child as threatening to the mother in some way, that decision could, should, and would be made before so late in the term.

C. I don't have a problem with my President ending the ban on late-term abortions when that ban does not include a provision excluding instances where the mother's life is in danger if she delivers the child.

I don't know what I'd do in that situation, to be honest. But if I was told that I had no option and that my wife would die because of a decision that someone made in Washington DC, I might start making some dangerous decisions of my own at that time. :2cents:

[Art Monk Fan]

So what you're saying is, that if this is passed, mothers who are deemed to be mentally unhealthy would qualify to receive a partial birth abortion?

The "health of the mother" clause is basically a back-door nullification of all abortion bans. As currently interpreted, it qualifies the mental stress of being pregnant as an adverse health condition, meaning that being pregnant alone is enough of a health condition to allow for abortion at any stage. That's why the far left fights so hard for the clause. It sounds reasonable, but in practice is anything but.

[EersSkins05]

The "health of the mother" clause is basically a back-door nullification of all abortion bans. As currently interpreted, it qualifies the mental stress of being pregnant as an adverse health condition, meaning that being pregnant alone is enough of a health condition to allow for abortion at any stage. That's why the far left fights so hard for the clause. It sounds reasonable, but in practice is anything but.

How can anyone speak with any authority as to what this bill would accomplish "in practice" when it hasn't been enacted? Whether you think it's a catch-all to allow abortion across the board or, as I stated in my previous post, an exception to the all-inclusive ban of partial birth abortion presently on the books, I don't think either of us can give an educated opinion on how it would operate "in practice."

[D'Pablo]

I'm not saying they absolutely would everytime.

What I'm saying is there is nothing to stop a doctor from making a personal judgment call to abort late-term for this nebulous thing called "mental health."

EDIT:

What does life or health mean here?

Actually, this question would likely be determined by state courts, unless the supreme court were to decide this issue. Doctors would not have the authority to make discretionary abortions after a case were brought forth establishing a precedent. Essentially, partial birth abortion would become a 'state's rights' issue because most state judges are elected and not appointed.

[Prosperity]

The "health of the mother" clause is basically a back-door nullification of all abortion bans. As currently interpreted, it qualifies the mental stress of being pregnant as an adverse health condition, meaning that being pregnant alone is enough of a health condition to allow for abortion at any stage. That's why the far left fights so hard for the clause. It sounds reasonable, but in practice is anything but.

I think your objection then is not to the clause but what criteria are used for the "health condition"

surely you agree that if the health of the mother is significantly threatened than an abortion is the ethical thing

there ought to be some middle ground, it seems to me ruling out the health clause rules out too many legit reasons.

[Zguy28]

Actually' date=' this question would likely be determined by state courts, unless the supreme court were to decide this issue. Doctors would not have the authority to make discretionary abortions after a case were brought forth establishing a precedent. Essentially, partial birth abortion would become a 'state's rights' issue because most state judges are elected and not appointed.[/quote']Indeed.

Too bad for those unborn babies that have succumbed to the abortionists scissors in the mean time.