What is wrong with Al Saunders offense?

[iMeast]

If they were smart they would bench Bulge and have Trent Green start so they can see how it works. Green ran it for years in Kansas City and looked great while doing it. I hope they don't do this until after the Redskins game though. :dallasuck

HTTR

[JoeGibbsRypenGClark91]

No, Gibbs was stubborn, not clueless. He should have let Saunders operate his offense with the QB that he knew could run it from the get go.

Think about it, if we had started Collins 2 years ago where would that offense be right now? JC would have 2 years of learning and possibly playing in that same system.

Saunders offense works and it will show by mid season. Edwards is lucky to have him and in the end, will make him look like a genius.

Edwards who? Herm Edwards coaches the Cheifs. Saunders is on the Rams man.

[#98QBKiller]

Its just amazing to me how Campbell looks like a pro bowler now in 1 offseason. And with Saunders it looked like he could not run a NFL offense.

And now the Bulger looks like a fool.

Yep, Saunders is a disease. Glad we cured our team of him

[kuraitengai]

Edwards who? Herm Edwards coaches the Cheifs. Saunders is on the Rams man.

thats what im wanting to know. thats the second time someone has referenced saunders working with edwards.

do they not know that herm edwards is in KC and linehan is in StL with saunders?

[sjinhan]

If they were smart they would bench Bulge and have Trent Green start so they can see how it works. Green ran it for years in Kansas City and looked great while doing it. I hope they don't do this until after the Redskins game though. :dallasuck

HTTR

yeah that is actually pretty good reasonable conclusion... not sure if it will ever happen or how it will play in the Rams locker room.

[DCSaints_fan]

OTOH the Rams weren't that much better last year.

[DaveMason]

I can't believe people are still defending Saunders. Mike Martz is the one who made the Rams offense what it was. Yes, KC put up some pretty good numbers but they never scored enough to win. If there's two minutes left and you need a touchdown to win, Saunders is not the guy you want calling your plays...

If Joe Gibbs "handcuffing" him is what caused us to make the playoffs last year, then maybe Linehan needs to start handcuffing Saunders too.

[Mania]

The Rams were probably too cheap to pay for the moving trucks to move all of the 700 page playbooks. Al Saunders probably only remembers page 1 and 2 which is filled with 3 and outs.

Just my 2 cents.

[redman]

Its just amazing to me how Campbell looks like a pro bowler now in 1 offseason. And with Saunders it looked like he could not run a NFL offense.

And now the Bulger looks like a fool.

I think what's amazing you is a combination of Campbell's continued development as a starting QB, and Gibbs' conservatism in not allowing Saunders to run his offense as aggressively as he wanted to.

Yes, Saunders has an ultra-complex offense, but it's proven that it works very well and is explosive and high scoring when it's allowed the time and freedom to work. Snyder and Gibbs allowed him neither the time nor the freedom. It ended up being a wasted hire, and not because of anything Saunders did or failed to do.

Another offensive coordinator who historically has shared this criticism is Kevin Gilbride, but everywhere he's gone where he's been allowed the time to "coach up" his offensive players - as he's done for example in New York with Eli - he's done very well.

[pjfootballer]

Well, the Rams were'nt exactly picked to contend anyway so the point is moot. But I'm glad Saunders is gone. He just never worked well here. He would do better on a more veteran team. He was usually successful when he had Vermeil running the team.

[ouvan59]

Who cares if the Rams start operating by the 9th game when they are 2-7.

The season is over. And Bulger and Stephen Jackson are a year older.

Any system that that takes years to learn is a dumb system for a veteran team. Espically with player turnover in the NFL.

You have Bulger, Holt and Jackson. A top 4 WR, top 4 running back and a top 8 QB and you are averaging 10 ppg and players complaining about not understanding the system and you think this is fine?

You don't stay young forever. Thats 1 year of their career wasted.

How come Martz system works faster than Saunders?

Were you aware that Mike Martz' system has never been ranked higher than Al Saunder's system in either yards or points in the last 6 seasons?

And it's this kind of must-win-now attitude that has gotten the Skins in trouble. How long did it take for Joe Gibbs to install his offense when he first got here? Are you telling me he should have been fired because it took some time and his first season was a lost cause? Take a breath people and realize that sometimes it takes time to get things going after a big change.

[Oldskool]

Nothing is wrong with his offense. To run it, you need a talented and above average pass blocking O-line, talented WR's and a versatile RB.

So far their O line looks like crap, they have Holt at WR and that's it, and Jackson looks decent after missing all of preseason due to stupidity.

[nightbird]

yeah that is actually pretty good reasonable conclusion... not sure if it will ever happen or how it will play in the Rams locker room.

It just happened. Bulger's taking a seat, Trent Green is in.

Now, about their putrid "defense" . . . .

[Fred Jones]

Nothing is wrong with his offense. To run it, you need a talented and above average pass blocking O-line, talented WR's and a versatile RB.

So far their O line looks like crap, they have Holt at WR and that's it, and Jackson looks decent after missing all of preseason due to stupidity.

I agree, simply bashing Saunders is not the whole answer. I like Saunders for creating a game plan and executing that game plan on game days. However, it is apparent that he is not a good teacher of his offense. Zorn has proven he can teach and explain his offense much better than Saunders ever did.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

saunders success in KC is pretty simple to figure out. he had one of the best olines in the history of the game. that makes your running game flawless (see priest holmes and larry johnson) which opens up your pass game, and for a vet QB like green, it makes life easy.

so in conclusion, his offense works, if you have an incredible oline. take a gander at the rams oline and see how long trent green will be alive taking snaps behind those olinemen.

[JoeGibbsRypenGClark91]

saunders success in KC is pretty simple to figure out. he had one of the best olines in the history of the game. that makes your running game flawless (see priest holmes and larry johnson) which opens up your pass game, and for a vet QB like green, it makes life easy.

so in conclusion, his offense works, if you have an incredible oline. take a gander at the rams oline and see how long trent green will be alive taking snaps behind those olinemen.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3604491

Trent Green may look better since he takes years to know his system.

[JoeGibbsRypenGClark91]

I think what's amazing you is a combination of Campbell's continued development as a starting QB, and Gibbs' conservatism in not allowing Saunders to run his offense as aggressively as he wanted to.

Yes, Saunders has an ultra-complex offense, but it's proven that it works very well and is explosive and high scoring when it's allowed the time and freedom to work. Snyder and Gibbs allowed him neither the time nor the freedom. It ended up being a wasted hire, and not because of anything Saunders did or failed to do.

Another offensive coordinator who historically has shared this criticism is Kevin Gilbride, but everywhere he's gone where he's been allowed the time to "coach up" his offensive players - as he's done for example in New York with Eli - he's done very well.

I think Gibbs is holding Bulger back to.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3604491

That weak its anybody but Saunders crap debate is over. Gibbs lives no here near St Louis.

[Ray Brown]

yeah that is actually pretty good reasonable conclusion... not sure if it will ever happen or how it will play in the Rams locker room.

it already did happen. the Bulge got benched and trent green has become the starter.

[JoeGibbsRypenGClark91]

it already did happen. the Bulge got benched and trent green has become the starter.

A QB got benched who is a former pro bowler withall the physical tools in favor of a guy who knows his system and people think this clown is a good OC.

There is a reason he has never won a playoff game as OC. Yes your offense make work with smart guys with limited physial tools but in the playoffs the gets faster and you need a QB with a big arm that can throw a 30 yard out on a rope.

Trent Green at this point of his career has 1 percent of Bulgers arm strength.

This thing has become like the Collins vs Campbell. How hard is it for Saunders to understand? Dumb down your system so your best athletes can do well in it.

[SkinsOrlando]

Tony Gonzalez

[AzSkinsFan63]

It takes 3 years to learn and he only ever gets 1 or 2..Oh well shorten it.

[ncr2h]

The problem with Saunders' system in St. Louis is the O-line: St. Louis doesn't have one. They can't get into a rhythm offensively because the QB is either under pressure or the O-line is committing false start and holding penalties. I don't think changing QBs will do anything (especially since the QB in Saunders' system isn't in charge of adjusting protections and cannot audible). I think what you'll see is a QB who is not on the same page as the rest of the offense. Collins looked horrendous during his first preseason with us. The next season, during pre-season he was nearly flawless. It's not enough that the QB knows the system - the players have to know it too.

[ouvan59]

saunders success in KC is pretty simple to figure out. he had one of the best olines in the history of the game. that makes your running game flawless (see priest holmes and larry johnson) which opens up your pass game, and for a vet QB like green, it makes life easy.

so in conclusion, his offense works, if you have an incredible oline. take a gander at the rams oline and see how long trent green will be alive taking snaps behind those olinemen.

It's funny how that offensive line didn't become great until Saunders got there and self-destructed immediately after he left. Sorry but Al Saunders was not the problem with our offense. If he had been left alone we would have been in much better shape last year. If you guys can't tell the difference in the playcalling from Kansas City the last year with Saunders and the Skins last year I feel badly for you. The sad part is that the playcalling from Zorn the last couple of weeks seems like such a revelation only because Gibbs' calls when he was here were so unbelievable conservative and scared that Zorn seems like a daredevil when, in fact, he is just like every other competent OC in football. He lets his players make plays and they respond with confident play.

I should add that I consider Joe Gibbs a near-deity and that I think we are in much, much better shape because he came back on board. I just wish he had brought his balls.

[Zen-like Todd]

It's funny how that offensive line didn't become great until Saunders got there and self-destructed immediately after he left

Funny how Saunders was there during their prime years, and the offensive line aged and came apart/retired/left right when he left.

To deny the impact of that offensive line on Saunders' success is crazy.

[DaveMason]

So are some of you arguing that the KC offensive line was average, and only looked good because of Saunders' system?

...then why hasn't his system improved the Rams' line? It certainly didn't do anything for the Redskins' line.

Here's my explanation: KC was a solid team because they had a future HOFer head coach in Dick Vermeil. Dick retires and is replaced by a total joke of a head coach, Herm Edwards. This contributes to the team's current ineffectiveness as much as anything.

Saunders is a "football nerd". He is smart, and he knows a lot about football...and he has a good system in theory. But he has no idea how to teach his system to players. He is too arrogant to change anything, even after it's proven to not work. (Remember the 2006 preseason. We looked TERRIBLE, and all Saunders had to say was "just trust me. We're progressing exactly as I had planned". Then we start the season, and as expected, our offense IS terrible. Then he starts in with the "oh, well maybe the players aren't good enough for my system..." garbage.)

You can mention KC's stats all you want, but until he shows that he can be successful for another group of players, I can't help but think that he is an overrated tool. That's just my take on things...I will gladly admit that I'm wrong if he can turn things around in St Louis.