Is Obama a Muslim?

[IHOPSkins]

....I hereby recognize a second vote that systematically, deliberately, lying.....

This defines SPEW

[IHOPSkins]

Obama attended this school because his family didn't initially have the money to send him to the international school that most foreign children attended.

Its in his second book, The Audacity of Book, page 274.

Thanks Brave

I appreciate you in this discussion

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Thanks Brave

I appreciate you in this discussion

[Larry]

What CHRISTIAN mother sends her kid to a MUSLIM DOMINATE school?

One who doesn't think "Christian" = "Ignorant"?

I never said Obama "is" a Muslim

Get real

Talk about SMEAR

:secret:The subject of this thread is "Is Obama a Muslim".

You gonna try and claim that you've spent the last 4 pages saying "No"?

[Larry]

The Mindset that equates All Religions as equal might be diplomatic

Might be good in conversation

Might even find Favor with the Godless

But

A true Believer (whatever the Religion) does not think that their religion is equal to others....they believe that their religion is SUPERIOR to others....thats what makes them true believers!

Atheists think that all religions are equal.....the Pope doesn't

What might the mindset that a person's religion is defined by which books he isn't ignorant of be?

[IHOPSkins]

.....The subject of this thread is "Is Obama a Muslim"......

You shouldn't assume that everybody that disagrees with you on one point, agrees with the Subject .....BUT

Since you are so interested in what I think about Obamas religion NOW....I will tell you

Obama is a Christian.....and one reason his faith is weak is he puts more faith in POLITICS

EDIT...this can be modified by open real discussion....and less SPEWING

[Larry]

If you are so DENSE that you cannot SEE there is some BASIS for questioning if he is a muslim then you cannot have a reasonable discussion with you.

You SEE there is no BASIS for calling Obama gay because there is nothing in his past that might indicate such.

There is something in his past which COULD mean Obama is a muslim. But you keep DEAD HORSE BEATING on a concept that is not even logical with the muslim accusation. Your lack of logic keeps you from participating in a discussion about the OP question.

Then name one.

So far, this smear's been going on for three months.

And the damning, galling, evidence, the momentous case that screams that the man's a Muslim consists of:

"Well, he attended a Muslim school (one that was, and still is, open to children of all religions) for a while, before he attended a Catholic one."

"Well, his Mother encouraged him to learn about different religions but not to join any"

"His mother liked to think about different religions, and discuss them."

"He had The Koran in his home. Right next to Norse mythology." (Guess that means he was "raised in a Thor-worshiping environment", huh?)

There isn't one single thing, in this entire thread, that even suggests that he's ever been a Muslim. Or that the people who raised him ever were. Not one. Not even an attempt.

So far, this profound, compelling, case against him you claim exists, is a lot closer to "Well, there's no proof that his house had a single picture of Jesus riding a dinosaur".

There's no "case" here that Obama is, or has ever been a Muslim. Closest anybody's even attempting to show is to claim that his relatives weren't exclusively Christian enough.

There's a bit of a difference between "Here's proof that Obama is a Muslim" and "Obama hasn't proven that he's never been in the same room as the Koran conclusively enough to satisfy me".

You want to claim there's evidence that he's Muslim? Show some.

[IHOPSkins]

What might the mindset that a person's religion is defined by which books he isn't ignorant of be?

The question you might want to answer is....

When did Obama take that Bible off the shelf and treat it differently than Bulfinch's Mythology?

You might try posting when Obama was Baptized?

Less Spewing....More work I say

[chipwhich]

You want to claim there's evidence that he's Muslim? Show some.

You can beat the dead horse all you want. All you have to do is open your eyes and see there is evidence he COULD have been a muslim. I don't need or have the time to put the same links which you have seen before.

I am not claiming he IS a muslim.

All I was saying is there are questions about him being a muslim because of circumstances involving his fathers religion, the school he went to, etc. Those questions are fair. There is NOT any circumstances that might implicate him as a child molestor or a gay. Those accusations would be flat out LIES.

You cannot tell me without a reasonable doubt that he is or is not a muslim. You cannot be sure.

So to defend the concept as a flat out LIE is just....well...dumb.

[Larry]

Now, before we get going, how many here have been to Indonesia? Saudi Arabia? Egypt? Iraq? Kuwait? Afghanistan? Pakistan? Maldives? A couple of other muslim countries I can't mention. OR any other place where the call to prayer goes off over a fire siren five times a day (Except Detroit)

Wow, Sarge. I had no idea that you were Muslim.

See, what you've done, by waving your resume as an authority on Muslim-hood around, is to prove that there's vastly more "evidence" that you're a Muslim, than there is that Obama is, or ever was.

So which is it, folks? Based strictly on their degree of Muslim-hood:

Is Sarge unfit for public office?

Or is Obama fit?

[codeorama]

Why do you care if people know you're a child molester?

So being a muslim is a crime??

[corrupt3d]

So yes, he still has some musilm in him. There are just too many little slips to conclude otherwise.

And again, I don't want a POTUS with that kind of influence in his head leading this country at this particular time

In Islam, you're either Muslim or you're not. There is no gray area. I'm sure this is the same as Christianity, etc. You can't be "half-"

That said, why shouldnt the POTUS have Muslim influence. Frankly thats EXACTLY what we need right now - not saying Obama does have some, but, with Muslim extremists out to try and get us, wouldn't a Muslim in office make them think differently about the US?

[Dan T.]

It amazes me that people consider it a negative that a Presidential candidate grew up exposed to other cultures and has an understanding of different religions - including a religion of which the most extremist faction is a sworn enemy of the US - and has been a practicing Christian his adult life. To me, that is a valuable asset for a person who must deal with other Nations and other cultures as President of the United States. Since when is knowledge and understanding a negative?

It is close-mindedness verging on paranoia to disqualify a candidate because that person went to a secular/Muslim school in the fourth grade.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

So being a muslim is a crime??

After reading some of the posts on this board you would think so.

[chipwhich]

Wow, Sarge. I had no idea that you were Muslim.

See, what you've done, by waving your resume as an authority on Muslim-hood around, is to prove that there's vastly more "evidence" that you're a Muslim, than there is that Obama is, or ever was.

So which is it, folks? Based strictly on their degree of Muslim-hood:

Is Sarge unfit for public office?

Or is Obama fit?

No that would be called "being in the military". Obama wasn't in the military.

Your distortion of the obvious is really sad.

[corrupt3d]

After reading some of the posts on this board you would think so.

Well, thank God people don't know I'm Muslim...

...ah crap

[Dan T.]

So being a muslim is a crime??

No, but apparently in some people's minds it disqualifies a person from holding public office.

[IHOPSkins]

....

Is Sarge unfit for public office?

Or is Obama fit?

1) Sarge is fit (yeah Sarge :applause:)

2) That depends on Obamas Muslim Credentials (just kidding Larry )

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Well, thank God people don't know I'm Muslim...

...ah crap

:)

[codeorama]

Gee, what's wrong with these lefties? You lie about them for months on end, and they get all touchy and try to argue with you. What's their problem?

Every time the Right spreads the lie, again, the liberals argue with it. Why don't the people being lied about just stop objecting to being lied about?

Movie reference: If this guy would just pay me what he's spending to make me stop robbing him, I'd stop robbing him.

Here's my point... the left shouldn't care if Obama is a muslim or not. The left is all about separation of church and state, the left is supposed to be much more inclusive regarding religion, the left is against the right wing christian monopoly.

While I am not voting for Obama, it has nothing to do with his religion. I don't care if he is or isn't muslim. What bothers me is that the left is so offended that some "MIGHT" think he's muslim. This is hypocracy in my opinion.

If the "reason" for outrage is because the left is concerned that some christian voters won't vote for him because he "might" be muslim, ask yourself, do you really and honestly think any of them will be voting for him anyway?

Its just an excuse. I think this whole issue is more telling about the left than the right.

[Larry]

You can beat the dead horse all you want. All you have to do is open your eyes and see there is evidence he COULD have been a muslim.

Oh, so now the standard is "there's evidence that he COULD HAVE BEEN Muslim."

Well you know, there's evidence that you COULD HAVE BEEN gay. See, you're on the Internet, and them gays use the internet, too. (Guess if I don't want a gay President, I'd better vote for McCain. )

After all, that's what's need for a smear, isn't it? The possibility that the smear MIGHT NOT BE PROVABLY FALSE.

You cannot tell me without a reasonable doubt that he is or is not a muslim. You cannot be sure.

1) He said so.

2) He's attended the same, Christian, church, for over half his life. Was married in it. Had his children baptized in it.

And on the other side of the scales we use for weighing evidence, we have?

"Well, maybe he could have, once, been exposed to . . . "

"Well, the Father he never met believed . . . "

"Well, he admits that once, when they tried to teach him about the Koran, he got in trouble for making faces."

You want to come up with something to argue against the undisputed fact that he's been a member of a Christian Church for half his life? Show me a picture of him on a prayer rug, facing Mecca. Then I'll agree that the evidence on both sides are remotely comparable.

Until that point, what you've got is a smear, supported by "well, the evidence that the smear's false isn't enough to satisfy the people who are doing the smearing".

[Sarge]

Then name one.

There isn't one single thing, in this entire thread, that even suggests that he's ever been a Muslim. Or that the people who raised him ever were. Not one. Not even an attempt.

There's no "case" here that Obama is, or has ever been a Muslim. Closest anybody's even attempting to show is to claim that his relatives weren't exclusively Christian enough.

There's a bit of a difference between "Here's proof that Obama is a Muslim" and "Obama hasn't proven that he's never been in the same room as the Koran conclusively enough to satisfy me".

You want to claim there's evidence that he's Muslim? Show some.

From the LA Times article

Read Larry. Read

As a boy in Indonesia, Barack Obama crisscrossed the religious divide. At the local primary school, he prayed in thanks to a Catholic saint. In the neighborhood mosque, he bowed to Allah.

Having a personal background in both Christianity and Islam might seem useful for an aspiring U.S. president in an age when Islamic nations and radical groups are key national security and foreign policy issues. But a connection with Islam is untrod territory for presidential politics.

Obama’s four years as a child in Indonesia underscore how dramatically his background differs from that of past presidential hopefuls, most of whom spent little, if any, time in other countries. No one knows how voters will react to a candidate with an early exposure to Islam, a religion that remains foreign to many Americans.

Obama’s campaign aides have emphasized his strong Christian beliefs and downplayed any Islamic connection. The candidate was raised “in a secular household in Indonesia by his stepfather and mother,” his chief spokesman, Robert Gibbs, said in a statement in January after false reports began circulating that Obama had attended a radical madrasa, or Koranic school, as a child.

“To be clear, Senator Obama has never been a Muslim, was not raised a Muslim, and is a committed Christian who attends the United Church of Christ in Chicago,” Gibbs’ Jan. 24 statement said.

In a statement to The Times on Wednesday, the campaign offered slightly different wording, saying: “Obama has never been a practicing Muslim.” The statement added that as a child, Obama had spent time in the neighborhood’s Islamic center.

His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama’s grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both of the schools he attended.

That registration meant that during the third and fourth grades, Obama learned about Islam for two hours each week in religion class.

The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. “We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque. But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played,” said Zulfin Adi, who describes himself as among Obama’s closest childhood friends.

The campaign’s national press secretary, Bill Burton, said Wednesday that the friends were recalling events “that are 40 years old and subject to four decades of other information.” Obama’s younger sister, Maya Soetoro, said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only “for big communal events,” not every Friday.

The sensitivity of Islam as a political issue was on display earlier this year with the false report that Obama had attended a radical madrasa here. The report, which appeared initially on a conservative-oriented online magazine and then on a Fox News program, attributed the news to opposition researchers for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.). Both campaigns denied the story and accused conservative media outlets of trying to use the rumor to smear two Democratic hopefuls simultaneously.

Indonesia, the world’s most populous Islamic-majority country, has seen an upsurge of Islamic radicalism in the last few years. But during the 1960s, when Obama lived here, the country was known for a brand of Islam more open to the nonIslamic world than the austere versions preached in much of the Middle East. Even in the Mideast, political Islam was far less influential in the 1960s than it is today.

In his autobiography, “Dreams From My Father,” Obama briefly mentions Koranic study and describes his public school, which accepted students of all religions, as “a Muslim school.”

“In the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell my mother that I made faces during Koranic studies,” Obama wrote. “My mother wasn’t overly concerned. ‘Be respectful,’ she’d say. In the Catholic school, when it came time to pray, I would close my eyes, then peek around the room. Nothing happened. No angels descended. Just a parched old nun and 30 brown children, muttering words.”

Obama was born in Honolulu. When he was 2, his father, Barack Hussein Obama Sr., a Kenyan, and his Kansas-born mother, Ann Dunham, separated and later divorced. Dunham later married Lolo Soetoro, who was a Muslim. In 1967, the family moved to Jakarta, where Obama lived from ages 6 to 10. People there knew him as Barry Soetoro.

Adi said he often visited the Soetoro family at their home, a small flat-roofed bungalow at 16 Haji Ramli St. Today, he runs an Internet cafe and purified water business from the same small Jakarta house where he grew up near Obama.

Theirs was a middle-class neighborhood, but Haji Ramli Street was a dirt lane where Obama used to wile away the hours kicking a soccer ball. In the long rainy season, it turned to thick, mucky soup; Obama and his friends wore plastic bags over their shoes to walk though it, said Adi, who at 46 is the same age as Obama.

Neighborhood Muslims worshiped in a nearby house, which has since been replaced by a larger mosque. Sometimes, when the muezzin sounded the call to prayer, Lolo and Barry would walk to the makeshift mosque together, Adi said.

“His mother often went to the church, but Barry was Muslim. He went to the mosque,” Adi said. “I remember him wearing a sarong.”

In her statement, Obama’s sister, who was born after the family moved to Indonesia, said: “My father saw Islam as a way to connect with the community. He never went to prayer services except for big communal events. I am absolutely certain that my father did not go to services every Friday. He was not religious.”

In 1968, Obama began first grade at St. Francis Assisi Foundation School, just around the corner from his home.

The Catholic elementary school had only opened the previous year and wanted to enroll as many students as possible, so it welcomed children of any religion, said Israella Dharmawan, 63, his first-grade teacher.

“At that time, Barry was also praying in a Catholic way, but Barry was Muslim,” Dharmawan said in Obama’s old classroom, where she still teaches 39 years later. “He was registered as a Muslim because his father, Lolo Soetoro, was Muslim.”

Like all pupils, Obama had to pray before and after each class, and cross himself in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, Dharmawan said.

After St. Francis, Obama completed third and fourth grades in what is now called Model Primary School Menteng 1 in central Jakarta. Opened by Indonesia’s former Dutch colonial rulers, the public school screens for the best students with writing tests and interviews. Several of its students have gone on to join Indonesia’s elite.

Bugs have eaten Obama’s file in the school’s archive, said Vice Principal Hardi Priyono. But two of his teachers, former Vice Principal Tine Hahiyari and third-grade teacher Effendi, said they remember clearly that at this school too, he was registered as a Muslim, which determined what class he attended during weekly religion lessons.

“Muslim students were taught by a Muslim teacher, and Christian students were taught by a Christian teacher,” said Effendi, who, like many Indonesians, uses only one name.

Obama took few kids to his home, just members of an inner circle who were trusted to see his secret pets: crocodiles that lived in a concrete tub, about a foot-and-a-half deep and a yard long, surrounded by chicken wire. The biggest croc was almost as long as its home, recalled Adi.

Obama’s stepfather “was breeding crocodiles in his house,” he added. “Not many people knew about it. He only had one big crocodile, but they had many smaller ones.”

The family’s pets included a turtle as big as a cookie tin and an ape named Tata, which Obama’s stepfather brought from New Guinea. Soetoro worked for Mobil Oil and was a “chubby, and relaxed kind of guy,” Adi said.

Obama spent most his spare time hanging out with Adi and other friends at the home of Yunaldi Askiar, a classmate. They used to play a kind of fencing game using sticks, kick a ball up and down the narrow dirt lanes or go swimming in the river behind the school, said Askiar, 42, a car mechanic.

Obama was taller and better dressed than most kids in classes where shoes and socks were still luxuries, so he stood out from the start. As an African American, and the only foreigner, he suffered racial taunts and teasing but never turned to violence. “At first, everybody felt it was weird to have him here,” Dharmawan said. “But also they were curious about him, so wherever he went, the kids were following him.”

In “Dreams From My Father,” Obama describes coming home one day with an egg-sized lump on the side of his head because he had challenged an older boy.

The boy hit Obama with a rock, so his stepfather brought out two pairs of boxing gloves and sparred with him. “You want to keep moving, but always stay low – don’t give them a target,” he coached Obama.

Instead of using his fists, Obama gained respect – and friends – by using his imposing stature to protect weaker children against the strong, Dharmawan said.

Obama’s Indonesian teachers all said he was a leader at a young age. Fermina Katarina Sinaga, Obama’s third-grade teacher, didn’t have to quiet her pupils before class because Obama did it for her.

“When the kids lined up before entering the class, he would step forward and lead the whole class,” said Sinaga, 57. “He inspected the line, and he was acting like a teacher. I could see his sense of leadership back then.”

Sinaga asked her class to write an essay titled “My dream: What I want to be in the future.” Obama “wrote ‘I want to be a president,’ ” she said. During a later writing assignment on family, he wrote, “My father is my idol.”

[brandymac27]

I keep my Bible on the floor. Under my bed. After reading through this thread, I guess to some, that negates my Christian beliefs.

FOR SHAME!!!! You must be an atheist!

BrandyMac - Yes, you are eviiiiiiiiiiillll for reading through the Koran. Trying to understand different cultures and even possibly the roots of some elements of extremism displayed in varying cultures...well, that's just silly you would do something like that.

Tell me about it. So much for having a little compassion.

The Mindset that equates All Religions as equal might be diplomatic

Might be good in conversation

Might even find Favor with the Godless

But

A true Believer (whatever the Religion) does not think that their religion is equal to others....they believe that their religion is SUPERIOR to others....thats what makes them true believers!

Atheists think that all religions are equal.....the Pope doesn't

Look, I grew up Catholic. IMO, Catholicism is the worst example of superiority you can allude to. Unless of course you find that molesting little boys make one far superior to others.

So being a muslim is a crime??

Obviously around here it ts.

It amazes me that people consider it a negative that a Presidential candidate grew up exposed to other cultures and has an understanding of different religions - including a religion of which the most extremist faction is a sworn enemy of the US - and has been a practicing Christian his adult life. To me, that is a valuable asset for a person who must deal with other Nations and other cultures as President of the United States. Since when is knowledge and understanding a negative?

It is close-mindedness verging on paranoia to disqualify a candidate because that person went to a secular/Muslim school in the fourth grade.

All I can say:

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Sarge, maybe I'm slow but I don't get your point.

We all know that Obama went to a public school and took Koranic classes.

He also went to a Catholic school.

What's the problem?

[Sarge]

Oh, so now the standard is "there's evidence that he COULD HAVE BEEN Muslim."

Well you know, there's evidence that you COULD HAVE BEEN gay. See, you're on the Internet, and them gays use the internet, too. (Guess if I don't want a gay President, I'd better vote for McCain. )

After all, that's what's need for a smear, isn't it? The possibility that the smear MIGHT NOT BE PROVABLY FALSE.

1) He said so.

2) He's attended the same, Christian, church, for over half his life. Was married in it. Had his children baptized in it.

And on the other side of the scales we use for weighing evidence, we have?

"Well, maybe he could have, once, been exposed to . . . "

"Well, the Father he never met believed . . . "

"Well, he admits that once, when they tried to teach him about the Koran, he got in trouble for making faces."

You want to come up with something to argue against the undisputed fact that he's been a member of a Christian Church for half his life? Show me a picture of him on a prayer rug, facing Mecca. Then I'll agree that the evidence on both sides are remotely comparable.

Until that point, what you've got is a smear, supported by "well, the evidence that the smear's false isn't enough to satisfy the people who are doing the smearing".

And I wouldn't be so quick to call his "Christian" church Christian, either

Good ol' Uncle Wright wouldn't have lasted long in many churches I've gone to