A Sobering Reminder to Be Thankful for What We Have In America

[zoony]

It comes down to education. An uneducated society will never progress. That is something that Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and China have put effort into.

India has been one of the most educated societies for the last 50 years. However the majority of the country exists in extreme poverty. They are starting to come out of their shell a bit, like China... but it takes a lot more than an educated populace.

[Busch1724]

To continue what I mentioned in the post above, my cousin is a Marine. He did a couple Iraq tours along with the original Afganistan tour. He's been to other places around the world before these tours and said he never met a group of poeple more uneducated that the Iraqis. That's why we put forth the effort into building schools in Iraq, it'll eventually pay off if they see it through. The Phillipines never really had a government or support to see something like a quality school system get results. A less educated populace is a less motivated populace with no work skills to get them by.

[Busch1724]

India has been one of the most educated societies for the last 50 years. However the majority of the country exists in extreme poverty. They are starting to come out of their shell a bit, like China... but it takes a lot more than an educated populace.

A certain segment of their population is, but not nearly everyone. Education isn't the sole reason we've been successful, but it's a trait that leads to other things like motivation and finding ways to succeed. It's something that is slowly becoming a thing of the past in this country as we depend more and more on our goverment to help us out.

[BigMike619]

you and I are talking about this already but I will say it in public. You are really a great person to care enough to travel and help the way you are. Kudos to you keeastman and thanks for being a caring human being.

[DjTj]

To continue what I mentioned in the post above, my cousin is a Marine. He did a couple Iraq tours along with the original Afganistan tour. He's been to other places around the world before these tours and said he never met a group of poeple more uneducated that the Iraqis. That's why we put forth the effort into building schools in Iraq, it'll eventually pay off if they see it through. The Phillipines never really had a government or support to see something like a quality school system get results. A less educated populace is a less motivated populace with no work skills to get them by.

But we did all that for the Philippines before World War II when they were part of the United States, and even after they became independent we still had military bases there and gave them a lot of aid. We gave the Philippines about as much help as we've given any other country, but things just went sour politically, and they never made the leap that other Asian countries did.

And their education system isn't really so bad now.

I was talking with one of the Filipino physicians we are working with and she was saying one of the big problems is lack of drive by the people. Like, they are given free college education in Manila, but upon getting their degrees, they want to work at call centers or mail centers or whatever. That's not a bad thing, they need people to do that, but they also need to people go on further too.

Additionally, their health care system is SEVERLY hampered by the high number of physicians and nurses and other health care professionals leaving the country to work in the U.S. and other countries. So, they are experiencing a lot of "brain drain" in regards to health care due to lack of sufficient numbers of health care workers.

People are getting educated and many are going to the United States. More than 40% of the foreign nurses in the United States come from the Philippines.

A lot of good things are happening, and have been happening, in the Philippines ... they just haven't been able to take that next big step.

[NavyDave]

Visited P.I. and other places like it the first time back in the 80's when the Military was a major boost to its economy but the poverty was still bad.

[Busch1724]

BTW, Keestman thanks for doing such a great job and shedding some light on the Philipine's plight. It's very sobering indeed.

[Special K]

A certain segment of their population is, but not nearly everyone. Education isn't the sole reason we've been successful, but it's a trait that leads to other things like motivation and finding ways to succeed. It's something that is slowly becoming a thing of the past in this country as we depend more and more on our goverment to help us out.

Education helps, definitely. But that isn't really the overwhelming problem here. Like I said in a previous post, the Filipino physician we spent the weekend with told us that in Manila the college education is free but so many people don't want to do anything with it...it's more of a motivation problem, that's part of the reason you see these educated young people content to work in copy, mail, or call centers.

Furthermore, a lot of the educated people LEAVE developing countries. The become educated then go elsewhere to work. Ever seen an Indian physician on the east coast or a Filipino nurse on the west coast of the U.S.? I have. I've worked with LOTS of them. These are the educated people leaving their country in droves and working elsewhere. This has lead to "brain drain" in these developing nations and is one of the factors that makes it extremely difficult for the nation progress. This is the main problem with the health care over here.

Also, even at the local level, the people know what they need. For instance, my group had a project already set up that we were going to implement when we came here. However, we got here and the locals were already implementing it. In talking with the barangay midwife and chief, they were actually very knowledgeable about malnutrition treatment and diarrheal diseases. Basically, many of the locals are knowledgeable about treatments, etc., but there is not sufficient infrastructureby which to spread these treatments. I think it has a LOT to do with the most educated people leaving the country....:2cents:

[Special K]

you and I are talking about this already but I will say it in public. You are really a great person to care enough to travel and help the way you are. Kudos to you keeastman and thanks for being a caring human being.

BTW, Keestman thanks for doing such a great job and shedding some light on the Philipine's plight. It's very sobering indeed.

Well thanks guys, I appreciate it, although this wasn't meant to be a "kudos to keeastman" thread...more of a reminder of all we have to be grateful for in life living in the U.S.

It is interesting to get people's perspectives though to the political, educational, and other factors that hinder developing nations. This is one of my passions and I appreciate everyone's input and discussion!

[DjTj]

Education helps, definitely. But that isn't really the overwhelming problem here. Like I said in a previous post, the Filipino physician we spent the weekend with told us that in Manila the college education is free but so many people don't want to do anything with it...it's more of a motivation problem, that's part of the reason you see these educated young people content to work in copy, mail, or call centers.

Well, part of it is motivation and part of it is just that there aren't that many jobs available. It's not like Manila is teeming with jobs in engineering or investment banking. Call centers are hiring, so that's what they do.

Furthermore, a lot of the educated people LEAVE developing countries. The become educated then go elsewhere to work. Ever seen an Indian physician on the east coast or a Filipino nurse on the west coast of the U.S.? I have. I've worked with LOTS of them. These are the educated people leaving their country in droves and working elsewhere. This has lead to "brain drain" in these developing nations and is one of the factors that makes it extremely difficult for the nation progress. This is the main problem with the health care over here.

Also, even at the local level, the people know what they need. For instance, my group had a project already set up that we were going to implement when we came here. However, we got here and the locals were already implementing it. In talking with the barangay midwife and chief, they were actually very knowledgeable about malnutrition treatment and diarrheal diseases. Basically, many of the locals are knowledgeable about treatments, etc., but there is not sufficient infrastructureby which to spread these treatments. I think it has a LOT to do with the most educated people leaving the country....:2cents:

I've never really believed in the "brain drain" hurting developing countries that much. Hundreds of thousands of educated Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese, Chinese, and Indian immigrants have come to the United States, but that hasn't stopped those countries from doing very well. Immigrants send money back home, and when they get established, they can send business back home as well.

If anything, the "brain drain" from China and India right now is accelerating their progress, as they get more and more access to U.S. markets. The Philippines should be able to take advantage of the same benefits.

[Special K]

I've never really believed in the "brain drain" hurting developing countries that much. Hundreds of thousands of educated Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese, Chinese, and Indian immigrants have come to the United States, but that hasn't stopped those countries from doing very well. Immigrants send money back home, and when they get established, they can send business back home as well.

If anything, the "brain drain" from China and India right now is accelerating their progress, as they get more and more access to U.S. markets. The Philippines should be able to take advantage of the same benefits.

Hmmm...definitely disagree with you on the "brain drain" NOT hurting the developing countries...especially when WHO, DOH, and Provincial legislators we've met with over here bring that up as the number one issue they are having to deal with in terms of health care.

[HogTastic]

Brain Drain are you guys serious?? We have a free market economy so of course the smartest are gunna go where they pay the most. To put a stop to such a thing would essentialy mean putting a stop to capitalism. I don't know what effect it has on developing nations but it is surely a necessary evil.

Brain Drain...that had me cracking up. In much the same way that this hilarious spoof of PTI did.

http://www.digitalfuntown.com/showchannel.php?page=22&title=Short%20Shorts&swf=shorts&fcontent_id=106

[Oldskool]

Keeastman you officially are one of my ****ing heroes! God bless you for doing what you are doing right now.

I was actually listening to my mom tell me a story last night about a time my grandfather was picked up by the Cuban secret police last and held for 72 hours for having more than $500 in cash.

Some people just don't get it.

[DjTj]

Hmmm...definitely disagree with you on the "brain drain" NOT hurting the developing countries...especially when WHO, DOH, and Provincial legislators we've met with over here bring that up as the number one issue they are having to deal with in terms of health care.

I don't doubt that it has specific negative effects on certain areas of the economy, but I think that overall, "brain drains" should help developing countries if they are managed well. As I've said, Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, China, and India have all prospered in the midst of very large "brain drains." I think at the very least, it forces the "drained" countries to become more like developed countries in order to keep the educated class around. It's a way of fostering competition that is pushes developing nations in a positive direction. Of course, that requires government to act in the right way...

I admit that it is complicated, but I definitely believe the good outweighs the bad. So many other nations have benefited from it. Here's a good article discussing both sides:

Nine million Filipinos, more than one out of every 10, are working abroad. Every day, more than 3,100 leave the country.

Philippine workers sent home more than $10.7 billion last year, equal to about 12% of the gross domestic product.

The current president, Gloria Macapagal Arroyo, calls them "the backbone of the new global workforce" and "our greatest export."

Worldwide, these workers have earned a reputation for enterprise and hard work. They include some of the Philippines' most talented people, well educated and multilingual.

But as a third generation leaves to work abroad, it is clear the system has not led to prosperity. Policymakers have focused on easing the flow of workers rather than harnessing their earnings for economic development.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/yourmoney/la-fg-remit20apr20,0,4467079.story?page=1

[Special K]

Brain Drain are you guys serious?? We have a free market economy so of course the smartest are gunna go where they pay the most. To put a stop to such a thing would essentialy mean putting a stop to capitalism. I don't know what effect it has on developing nations but it is surely a necessary evil.

Are you serious? Apparently not since you admit you have no idea what it's effect is on developing countries.

And nowhere am I advocating "putting a stop" to it...:doh: I'm saying developing countries need to figure out how to keep their educated professionals in their countries to help them progress. Kinda hard to progress when all the smarties are taking off.

[Special K]

I don't doubt that it has specific negative effects on certain areas of the economy, but I think that overall, "brain drains" should help developing countries if they are managed well. As I've said, Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, China, and India have all prospered in the midst of very large "brain drains."

Say whhhaaaaatttt?? China and India are prosperous countries now??? Huh?

The very article you quoted said the "overseas class" isn't helping their countries "prosper," but get by.

Can you admit that maybe it would be easier for the developing nations to progress more quickly if trained professionals stayed in their countries and helped build infrastructure from within instead of leaving and just sending a little bit of money back home?

I'm not saying that I blame these people for going overseas or we should force them to stay in their countries and work, but to disregard "brain drain" and say it doesn't hinder a developing nation is a little absurd IMO.

[Zguy28]

K, its nice, but sad to see some of those pictures. The Western world needs to see more of it though. I've seen similar (not Typhoons though!) squalor in Mexico where I do missionary work.

Keep it up!

[Destino]

Thank you for going over there and helping people out that obviously could use a hand. You've done a good thing and by spreading the word you will no doubt encourage more to do the same. God bless you.

[DjTj]

Say whhhaaaaatttt?? China and India are prosperous countries now??? Huh?

They are prospering ... 8-12% growth rates are certainly indications that their brain drain isn't slowing them down ... and given their strong trade relations with the United States, I would even venture to say it is helping.

The very article you quoted said the "overseas class" isn't helping their countries "prosper," but get by.

Well, I said that it shows both sides of the issue in the Philippines. While other Asian countries have been very successful despite high emigration rates, the Philippines has definitely lagged behind.

Can you admit that maybe it would be easier for the developing nations to progress more quickly if trained professionals stayed in their countries and helped build infrastructure from within instead of leaving and just sending a little bit of money back home?

I don't think it's that simple. What would all these professionals do in the Philippines? Sure, they need more nurses and doctors, but they don't need that many more nurses and doctors. And there really aren't a lot of jobs for engineers or entertainers or other jobs with higher salaries. And it's not just a little bit of money they're sending back. It's 10.7 billion dollars, which is about 12% of the Philippines' GDP. It's less than 10% of the population sending back more than their share of the GDP simply in remittances.

I'm not saying that I blame these people for going overseas or we should force them to stay in their countries and work, but to disregard "brain drain" and say it doesn't hinder a developing nation is a little absurd IMO.

I guess this has been a little more combative a discussion than I wanted, but my point isn't to disregard the "brain drain," but not to blame the "brain drain" as a source of the country's problems. I think the "brain drain" is a symptom, rather than the cause of the Philippines' problems.

Other countries have had very significant "brain drains" but have made the transition to high-tech economies: Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan. Other countries, like India and China, are undergoing significant "brain drains" right now, but their economies are growing at ten times the rate of the Philippines.

I don't think it's the "brain drain" itself, but it's how the country reacts to the "brain drain." Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan responded to the brain drain by improving their own higher education systems and investing in high technology. Hong Kong built a huge financial sector built on international trade. The brains that were drained from India have set up very large outsourcing companies that bring business from western countries into India; Chinese emigrants have brought millions of imported products along with their brains. Emigration can be a great way for countries to plug into the global economy if they can take advantage of it.

And the experience of Japan is especially telling because after Japan's economy boomed, people could find great jobs at home, so they stopped going abroad, and we get relatively few Japanese immigrants in the United States today (similar to the numbers we might see from Western European countries). Japan didn't achieve economic success by stopping the brain drain; they stopped the brain drain by achieving economic success.

[Mark The Homer]

I was there in the 70s. Angeles City mostly. Poorest people I've ever seen. Roads were dirt, open ditches for sewers. Lots of beggars. A nice hotel room was seven bucks.

Thanks for sharing, Katie. Keep up the good fight.

[Sarge]

Thanks for posting that. I wish everyone here could take a tour of the Turd World for a week or so.

THen we wouldn't have to hear about how the "poor" are mistreated/ignored here

[Special K]

I guess this has been a little more combative a discussion than I wanted, but my point isn't to disregard the "brain drain," but not to blame the "brain drain" as a source of the country's problems. I think the "brain drain" is a symptom, rather than the cause of the Philippines' problems.

Hmm, well I'm sorry to have been a bit more combative than you wanted. Really I apologize. It's simply that what you are saying goes completely opposite of all public health literature and academic discussion regarding developing nations.

Having a professional working class up and leave a country is not good for a country, not matter how much money they send home. Fact remains that the smart, innovative people are not IN their country helping build from within...which has been proven to stiffle progression. Sure, developing nations ARE growing and progressing, but not at as fast of a rate as they should be...a rate that would increase should the professionals stay in their country.

[DjTj]

Hmm, well I'm sorry to have been a bit more combative than you wanted. Really I apologize. It's simply that what you are saying goes completely opposite of all public health literature and academic discussion regarding developing nations.

Although not the typical role I play here, I guess I think that a lot of those studies are the result of liberal academia, and are out of touch with the real world.

Having a professional working class up and leave a country is not good for a country, not matter how much money they send home. Fact remains that the smart, innovative people are not IN their country helping build from within...which has been proven to stiffle progression. Sure, developing nations ARE growing and progressing, but not at as fast of a rate as they should be...a rate that would increase should the professionals stay in their country.

Maybe if you consider things in a vacuum, it would be better if the cream of the crop were staying in the Philippines, but the reality is that the country can't provide all those people the education they need, or the jobs that they are qualified for ... they're either going to find a way to leave or end up frustrated.

I guess I also speak from a personal bias though, because my parents were part of a "brain drain" from Taiwan that did not really hurt their native country at all economically. They both went to the best engineering school in Taiwan, where a majority of their class would go to the United States.

Still, the people who were left behind were able to build a lot of successful companies, and Taiwan's "brain drain" story was a remarkable success: http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?id=155

My mom also has said that when she was growing up, they always thought the Philippines was richer than Taiwan was ... and they definitely were in the 60's. The difference is just that the Taiwanese and Korean governments managed their economies better. In 80's, Taiwan, Korea, and the Philippines all maxed out their immigration quotas each year, but as the economies improved in Taipei and Seoul, Taiwanese and Korean "brains" started staying in their native countries. The Philippines never made that transition.

Other countries stopped the brain drain not by restricting the movement of their professionals, but by simply improving their own economies. It's too simplistic to just think of the "brain drain" as "bad." It's just reality, and I think the Philippines needs to work on solving its underlying problems before the emigration will stop.

I found a lot of good links from this paper: http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?id=324

Including an interesting paper on the Philippines: http://www.ilo.org/public/english/protection/migrant/download/imp/imp51e.pdf

[Special K]

But that young boy looks scared for his life. Has been reading some of your Tailgate threads?

:laugh: Maybe my new slogan will be "Keeastman, instilling fear into hearts and minds of children worldwide."

I was actually listening to my mom tell me a story last night about a time my grandfather was picked up by the Cuban secret police last and held for 72 hours for having more than $500 in cash.

Some people just don't get it.

Wow. That doesn't surprise me though, unfortunately. My cousin went to Cuba on an "unofficial" visit to deliver medicine and medical supplies and his stories from his trip are incredibly scary, yet very eye opening to the challenges faced by that country.

And you're right, many people "just don't get it." I'm fortunate to have travelled all over and I enjoy showing my pictures and sharing my experiences to help people who haven't or aren't able to travel how fortunate we really are in the U.S.

K, its nice, but sad to see some of those pictures. The Western world needs to see more of it though. I've seen similar (not Typhoons though!) squalor in Mexico where I do missionary work.

Where in Mexico do you work? I've done a few trips to TJ and El Zorillo to help build homes...definitely similar living situations but without the typhoon flooding.

Thank you for going over there and helping people out that obviously could use a hand. You've done a good thing and by spreading the word you will no doubt encourage more to do the same. God bless you.

Why thanks Destino, I appreciate it.

I was there in the 70s. Angeles City mostly. Poorest people I've ever seen. Roads were dirt, open ditches for sewers. Lots of beggars. A nice hotel room was seven bucks.

Yep...not much has changed. Still open sewer systems, etc.....

Thanks for posting that. THen we wouldn't have to hear about how the "poor" are mistreated/ignored here

I definitely agree with you. The more I travel the more I am grateful for all the opportunities and cush life I have in America...and the less and less I am sympathetic to certain peoples' whining about how tough it is to "make it" in America, etc.

[Zguy28]

Where in Mexico do you work? I've done a few trips to TJ and El Zorillo to help build homes...definitely similar living situations but without the typhoon flooding.

A city called Apizaco and the surrounding area known as San Bartolo. Its near Puebla and in the state of Tlaxcala.

You can find it on Google Earth by searching for Apizaco, MX. I mainly work in the rural surroundings.