Breaking Down The Defensive Backs

[Thinking Skins]

http://www.thehogs.net/content/index.php?id=1128

Breaking Down The Defensive Backs

The defensive philosophy of Gregg Williams, the Washington Redskins' assistant head coach-defense from 2004 to 2007, relied mainly on aspects of the cover-2 and Tampa-2 defenses until last year when he shifted to more cover-1 to take advantage of free safety Sean Taylor’s coverage abilities, especially the amount of ground he could cover. Regardless of how Williams lined up his safeties, his cornerbacks were forced into man to man coverage on most passing plays and the defensive backs were heavily relied on for run support. Williams was fired during the protracted Head Coaching search and has resurfaced in Jacksonville for the 2008 season. Defensive line coach Greg Blache was named defensive coordinator shortly after that. Blache was a successful defensive coordinator for five seasons with the Chicago Bears before joining the Redskins, and had significant input in devising and implementing game plans over the past four years. Blache has said that not much will change as far as schemes go. At his first press conference Blache said, "We will have fewer packages, we are trying to be a hard, physical defense that's intimidating with our speed and hitting ability. You can't do that when you're thinking about 20,000 different things. You can do that when you're comfortable knowing what you have to do. And that's what we are going to focus on."

[Thinking Skins]

This was an interesting read (although I question some of the accuracy). I know that Blache has said that he's keeping things the same, just simpler, but I am wondering if we'll be doing a cover-2 scheme again or a cover-1 scheme or something different that takes advantage of other abilities that we have? Which one really takes advantage of out players skills? And if, god forbid, Landry were to get hurt, would our backups be able to handle these systems?

[Morneblade]

Not much of an actual breakdown of the defensive backs. More about how things might be different going from one DC to another.

[brianforster]

I see our starting duo being landry at FS and doughty at SS, it does not make sense to change it, landry had 2 amazing picks vs seattle in the playoffs that made us all think of our boy ST.

I know the kid can hit, but almost all of our defensive backs can hit and tackle well, and IMO id rather see him racking up the interceptions at FS. Plus he is young, and we saw how sometimes even the great #21 wiffed on some big hits.

It just makes more sense at this stage to keep him at FS with Doughty at SS, our defensive backfield ended last season playing stellar, springs had 2 ints in the bears game, didnt smoot get one during that streak too? And of course Landry's 2 in the playoff game.

Right now the only question for our DB's are Carlos Rogers and Justin Tryon.

[Thinking Skins]

I see our starting duo being landry at FS and doughty at SS, it does not make sense to change it, landry had 2 amazing picks vs seattle in the playoffs that made us all think of our boy ST.

I don't think I'd base next season on last season that much. I think Doughty has done enough to compete for a starting spot in training camp, but just like Ramsey looked HORRIBLE in training camp in 2005, what if Doughty looks bad this year? Or What is Stu (or one of the rookies) simply looks better? We shouldn't rule out that we want to put our best 11 men on the field.

And its not like the loser between Stu and Doughty is getting cut, just relegated to the bench. And its not like Landry and Doughty have the chemistry that Taylor and Ryan Clark had back in 2005.

I'm all for a competition.

[Spitfire71]

I think we should have maybe tried to draft one more corner than we did. I think we'll be fine at safety, whatever happens. Landry will stay at FS because there's nobody else on the team that could play FS better than Landry could. As for SS...I think that as the incumbent, the job is Doughty's to lose. To be relegated to a backup role again, he would either have to struggle mightily, or Schweigert or one of the rookies would have to do extremely well. Doughty finished with 53 tackles last year - that's quite a bit for a guy who only started 6 games for us. And don't forget - 2008 will only be Reed's third year in the NFL, so we might still be able to extract even a little more of his potential out of him, and if that happens, he'll be solid if not very good.

Corner has been a position that has made me nervous ever since Bailey left. We need a system that's going to play to our corners' strengths. Our corners, mostly due to age or lack of experience, can't play man-to-man for extended periods of time. Rogers was a corner from a defensive scheme that had him playing much more zone than man. That's part of the reason why he gets exposed so much one-on-one.

Fact is, even with all of our DB woes, there were still 16 teams in the league that gave up more passing yards per game than we did. It just so happened that we tended to give up big plays at inopportune times. Teams are going to pass on us most of the time because they can't run on us. We were 4th in the league against the run last year and, seeing as we're returning most to all of our starters from the end of last year, that shouldn't really change much. If we could get a few more stops in the passing game, our defense (which ranked 8th in the NFL last season) would be nothing short of BEASTLY.

[Area51]

Reed Doughty does not get enough credit for his play at SS. His play at SS was as good as LL was at SS, except Doughty doesn't make the big hits like LL and I don't think any S in the league blitzes like Dirty 30.

I think a lot of fans are creating a starting S position battle when it has already been decided. Landry is the starting FS and Doughty is the starting SS. They ended the season that way, with LaRon playing great at FS and Doughty doing a pretty good job at SS. The only changes IMO will be on 3 safety packages, where we'd probably bring Schweigart(sp?) in to play more of a FS role so we have the option to blitz LaRon.

Landry played both SS and FS last year. At SS, he looked like a solid, big hitter but NOTHING like a guy who warranted being picked 6th overall. When he made the switch to FS, he showed why he was the 6th overall pick. Besides, having a great FS in today's pass happy league is much more valuable than a great SS, especially when your front seven is already pretty good against the run.

[vaballa]

Reed Doughty does not get enough credit for his play at SS. His play at SS was as good as LL was at SS, except Doughty doesn't make the big hits like LL and I don't think any S in the league blitzes like Dirty 30.

I think a lot of fans are creating a starting S position battle when it has already been decided. Landry is the starting FS and Doughty is the starting SS. They ended the season that way, with LaRon playing great at FS and Doughty doing a pretty good job at SS. The only changes IMO will be on 3 safety packages, where we'd probably bring Schweigart(sp?) in to play more of a FS role so we have the option to blitz LaRon.

Landry played both SS and FS last year. At SS, he looked like a solid, big hitter but NOTHING like a guy who warranted being picked 6th overall. When he made the switch to FS, he showed why he was the 6th overall pick. Besides, having a great FS in today's pass happy league is much more valuable than a great SS, especially when your front seven is already pretty good against the run.

You hit it right on the head. He's way more valuable at FS. They could sub Reed out on 3rd down passing plays and sub Stuart in.

[kuraitengai]

You hit it right on the head. He's way more valuable at FS. They could sub Reed out on 3rd down passing plays and sub Stuart in.

and that would make sense on a passing down. cuz then have the two stronger pass defenders in at the safety positions. then the offense has to guess if both are setting up for pass coverage or if SS is the cover guy and LL will be blitzing. having the three of them could give some good package looks and hopefully not tip anyone off.+

[ucfSKINS]

Not really an assesment or break down whatsoever.

However, like many others have posted, I would prefer to see Landry at FS this year. Let Stu and Reed battle it out in training camp, but either way, I hope they keep Landry at FS. Just seems to be a better fit, more natural than the SS position.

But I'm no coach, so just like any answer in the offseason, we can only speculate for now.

[Oldskool]

I hope we move away from using the Tampa 2 scheme this year. We simply do not have the LB's needed or the D-line needed for the scheme. It burned us more times than helped under Williams.

[GURU]

I hope we move away from using the Tampa 2 scheme this year. We simply do not have the LB's needed or the D-line needed for the scheme. It burned us more times than helped under Williams.

And I think, Oldskool, that we need to distinguish the Tampa-2 coverage from other types of Cover-2. One of the Skins' more effective coverages was when they played the safeties on the hashes in deep zone coverage and the corners played press man coverage underneath.

However, when they played Tampa-3, where the safeties are split wider and the MLB has to make a very fast deep drop into the middle, the defense tended to give up a few plays, mostly because Fletcher isn't adept at chasing receivers from behind in coverage. Fletcher is fierce in the short and intermediate zones when he can keep the receivers in front of him, however.

I really wouldn't venture to guess a base coverage, because it will change game-to-game. Blache did play more zone coverage in Chicago, but that was due largely to personnel. I think this group gives him more flexibility, and I think he'll continue to mix it up. Just because he won't run 10-12 packages every game, like Williams was prone to do, doesn't mean he'll only play one or two coverages.

[Spitfire71]

A bit more blitzing would be nice. We shouldn't expect our DL to do everything. A DL is considered to be playing moderately well when they can tie up all five OL so a defense can bring a LB or CB from somewhere else. At worst case, they'll usually only have one or two guys between them and the QB.

And blitz LaRon Landry at least once a game, even if he is playing FS. Or am I not the only one to notice that whenever they called his number on a blitz, he knocked the ever-living **** out of the QB? From day one, too. He loves hitting QBs.

You want evidence? Look at this video if you haven't already seen it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R211e6JdVew <-- Still at LSU, hits Alabama QB John Parker Wilson (2006)

Flash forward about a year to Landry's first preseason game in a 'Skins uniform:

<-- LaRon Landry vs. Kerry Collins. And Collins is not a small quarterback, mind you. He stands about 6'5" and weighs 245 pounds.

--------------------------------------------

It's a luxury to have a line that's so damn good that you don't have to bring any extra guys on blitzes ever. Most NFL teams - even the best NFL teams - don't have a line that can do that week in and week out. It's a simple matter of numbers. Most d-lines have a total of roughly 1200-1250 pounds of dude spread out between four guys. The smallest O-lines are probably averaging about 1,550 pounds of dude divided between five guys..and that's if they're running a formation with no tight end, which would add anywhere from 240-280 pounds to the sheer mass of that line if he's blocking.

A DL is always going to be outnumbered. If Andre Carter is on form, he can draw double teams. If it were down to me, I'd be going with a nice diet of blitzes off the weak side because it'd be very hard to deal with Carter and then try to block McIntosh because of his quickness.

Hell, give London Fletcher a couple of shots at the QB from up the middle. He's a tackling machine that rarely misses once he initiates contact, and I'm sure he'd like to hit a passer every once in a while. Same goes for Washington.

Well-timed, unpredictable, and smart blitzing is a way to apply pressure from various angles. I know what people are going to say - it's a risk and we don't have the personnel at CB...well, if you can get pressure, you don't always need a Champ Bailey-level corner out there.

Example - Giants vs. Patriots. I'm sure everybody knows what would have happened to the Giants if their DL didn't bring their jumbo can of whoop ass to Phoenix with them and open it all over the offensive line of the patriots. With the inexperienced corners that NY had, they had no chance in hell if those guys had to run around trying to cover Randy Moss, Donte Stallworth, and Wes Welker for 5-7 seconds a play.

[Sonny9TD]

Reed Doughty does not get enough credit for his play at SS. His play at SS was as good as LL was at SS, except Doughty doesn't make the big hits like LL and I don't think any S in the league blitzes like Dirty 30.

I think a lot of fans are creating a starting S position battle when it has already been decided. Landry is the starting FS and Doughty is the starting SS. They ended the season that way, with LaRon playing great at FS and Doughty doing a pretty good job at SS. The only changes IMO will be on 3 safety packages, where we'd probably bring Schweigart(sp?) in to play more of a FS role so we have the option to blitz LaRon.

Landry played both SS and FS last year. At SS, he looked like a solid, big hitter but NOTHING like a guy who warranted being picked 6th overall. When he made the switch to FS, he showed why he was the 6th overall pick. Besides, having a great FS in today's pass happy league is much more valuable than a great SS, especially when your front seven is already pretty good against the run.

Yep.

[the krabber]

The projected depth chart shapes up like this: if Landry starts at strong safety it will be Reed Doughty’s spot to lose at free safety. Stuart Schweigert would be the primary backup at both spots, however if Landry is moved back to free safety then Schweigert would get the nod at strong safety and Doughty would be the backup free safety.

This is the exact opposite of everything Ive seen. The way I see it, it is gonna be one of these two scenarios:

FS - Landry

SS - Doughty

or

FS - Schweigert

SS - Landry

[jweisk1]

my eyes are bleeding from that font....

[jweisk1]

This is the exact opposite of everything Ive seen. The way I see it, it is gonna be one of these two scenarios:

FS - Landry

SS - Doughty

or

FS - Schweigert

SS - Landry

Here is my problem...I dont think Schweigart or anyone aside form landry on our team is capable of playing the FS spot...

I wouldnt feel very comfortable if the last man on our D was Doughty/Schweigert...

I think is has to be Landry or it might be like 2006 all over again...that was the year we had about 25+ plays over 40 yards....

Landry runs a 4.3 - 40 time....he is by far the most athletic guy on our D...why would we even consider moving him??

Thoughts??

[Thinking Skins]

Reed Doughty does not get enough credit for his play at SS. His play at SS was as good as LL was at SS, except Doughty doesn't make the big hits like LL and I don't think any S in the league blitzes like Dirty 30.

I think a lot of fans are creating a starting S position battle when it has already been decided. Landry is the starting FS and Doughty is the starting SS. They ended the season that way, with LaRon playing great at FS and Doughty doing a pretty good job at SS. The only changes IMO will be on 3 safety packages, where we'd probably bring Schweigart(sp?) in to play more of a FS role so we have the option to blitz LaRon.

People aren't "creating" a position battle. The coaches have said that its a battle between Stu and Reed for the safety spot. Thats why they signed Stu. Then they also commented that Moore could get some playing time at strong safety. These are Blache's words too. I posted the link earlier. The coaches are saying this, not the fans or the press.

Landry played both SS and FS last year. At SS, he looked like a solid, big hitter but NOTHING like a guy who warranted being picked 6th overall. When he made the switch to FS, he showed why he was the 6th overall pick. Besides, having a great FS in today's pass happy league is much more valuable than a great SS, especially when your front seven is already pretty good against the run.

WTF are you talking about? Landry was looking GREAT much before his move to FS. He was a freakin Pro Bowl alternate for heavens sake. He was putting punishing hits on people and having them afraid to go across the middle. He was getting game winning hits, and furious solo tackles. He was everything we were hoping to get out of Arch Deluxe. To just dismiss his play at SS is just crazy.

If you're talking about a pass happy league, then isn't it even better to have a FS and a SS who can cover? We both agree that Landry can cover, so if we keep him at SS and put Stu at FS, then we have two players back there who can cover those passes as well as Landry helping out on the run. Do you really want teams trying to develop packages to expose Doughty as a liability in coverage?

The question is who's a better safety next to Landry, Stu or Doughty? People are assuming that its Doughty, not because of Doughty outperforming Stu in training camp, but because they want to see Landry at FS. I'd rather have my best 11 men on the field, so I say let Stu, Doughty, Moore and whoever else fight out the battle in training camp and we'll see who's back there next to Landry.

[Thinking Skins]

Here is my problem...I dont think Schweigart or anyone aside form landry on our team is capable of playing the FS spot...

I wouldnt feel very comfortable if the last man on our D was Doughty/Schweigert...

I think is has to be Landry or it might be like 2006 all over again...that was the year we had about 25+ plays over 40 yards....

Landry runs a 4.3 - 40 time....he is by far the most athletic guy on our D...why would we even consider moving him??

Thoughts??

Because with Landry playing SS, backs still won't be able to get past him. They might be able to get past Doughty at SS. But Stu might be better able to help on those deep passes than Doughty is able to defend the run.

Plus Doughty is a liability in coverage, so he may struggle against some of the better TEs/RBs in the league (like Shockey in week 1, or Westbrook, or Abraham).

If Stu is at FS, then he won't be afraid and biting on play action fakes (because Landry would be playing so well), clearing him to defend the pass first. But if Landry is at FS and Doughty isn't playing too good at SS, then Landry may be tempted more to bite on a play action fake and it could lead to more big plays.

[the krabber]

Here is my problem...I dont think Schweigart or anyone aside form landry on our team is capable of playing the FS spot...

I wouldnt feel very comfortable if the last man on our D was Doughty/Schweigert...

I think is has to be Landry or it might be like 2006 all over again...that was the year we had about 25+ plays over 40 yards....

Landry runs a 4.3 - 40 time....he is by far the most athletic guy on our D...why would we even consider moving him??

Thoughts??

Because with Landry playing SS, backs still won't be able to get past him. They might be able to get past Doughty at SS. But Stu might be better able to help on those deep passes than Doughty is able to defend the run.

Plus Doughty is a liability in coverage, so he may struggle against some of the better TEs/RBs in the league (like Shockey in week 1, or Westbrook, or Abraham).

If Stu is at FS, then he won't be afraid and biting on play action fakes (because Landry would be playing so well), clearing him to defend the pass first. But if Landry is at FS and Doughty isn't playing too good at SS, then Landry may be tempted more to bite on a play action fake and it could lead to more big plays.

I think Doughty, after getting moved to SS, played very well. I dont ever see him becoming a star in the league or making a game changing INT, but I dont see him losing any games for us...especially if he goes into the season as a starter. He is a solid tackler and seems home at the SS position. I think going into training camp, the default safety positions should be Landry at FS and Doughty as SS. Schweigert should have to beat Doughty in order to earn a starting job.

[Spitfire71]

I think Doughty, after getting moved to SS, played very well. I dont ever see him becoming a star in the league or making a game changing INT, but I dont see him losing any games for us...especially if he goes into the season as a starter. He is a solid tackler and seems home at the SS position. I think going into training camp, the default safety positions should be Landry at FS and Doughty as SS. Schweigert should have to beat Doughty in order to earn a starting job.

We don't need Doughty to be a star. Like I said before, Area 51 was a luxury.

I've heard it often said that the safety tandem is made for one star and one worker. Doughty's a damn hard worker. The fact that he was able to play that well in the shadow of a deceased great, in his second season, as a 6th-rounder from a small school with only average athletic ability shows that.

[Smoot Point Really]

This depends on the defense we play, but if we play with a FS 20-30 yards off the ball like last year, then that man has to be Landry. If he somehow got injured (knock on wood), we'd have to change our scheme and pray.

[TheLongshot]

Really, this is all about getting the best players on the field. If it ends up that Schweigert is better at FS than Doughty is at SS, I could very easily see them moving Landry back over to make room for Schweigert.

That being said, none of that is set in stone. You set up a competition and you see who responds the best to it. Overall, it is a good thing, because it is all about improving your team.

Jason

[ChiefPowhatan17]

At one point in time last year, Williams said that LaRon and Sean were interchangable. With that, now that it's Blache's D, the best player should make it onto the field, whether it's Stuart or Reed. But, I think they will be rotated in and out. Different Safeties for different packages. But really it's going to look like this.

FS Landry Backup FS Stuart Schweigart

SS Doughty

CB Smoot

CB Springs (until Rogers is healthy)

NB Rogers

4B Tryon

[The Fourth King]

This is the exact opposite of everything Ive seen. The way I see it, it is gonna be one of these two scenarios:

FS - Landry

SS - Doughty

or

FS - Schweigert

SS - Landry

I would agree, but I would hope for the former. Landry is just too good at FS to move back to SS. I just hope Stu proves me wrong.