Destino Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 I see way too many "what america is about" and founding fathers arugments that are completely out of line with reality. The founders of this country distrusted the corporate entitity and for much of this nations history corporations were severely limited. - Charters were granted with extremely limited life spans. - Corporation were not allowed to hold stock in others. - They were not allowed to donote to political campaigns. - They were only allowed to exist if they served a public need and not allowed to expand beyond it. - They were constantly reviewed to see if they were still serving the public interest and broken up if they were not. It is incredibly annoying to read aruments about socialization vs corporations and see the founders or "america" dragged into the fight when neither side represents this countries history correctly. America was not founded on the beliefs of Ronald goddamn Reagan. I'm an immigrant why do I know more about this than so many of you?! Through out american history you see a SLOW movement away from the original healthy fear of rich families and powerful corporations. As feared their influence did grow and it did start to gain political influence far greater than any founder intended. And now we are in the present were influence and money go hand in hand and the corporations write our policy. Is there any doubt in anyones mind that corporations and the wealthy have greater influence than the common american? This is exactly what this nation was trying to prevent.... socialism is likewise against the founding intent. America was supposed to be "we the peopple" not "we the government" or "we the powerful". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 This goes in the "random angry thread" category SHF is confused as to its purpose But, if I am reading it correctly, you are against the farm bill in its form, right? http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247804 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 23, 2008 Author Share Posted May 23, 2008 This goes in the "random angry thread" categorySHF is confused as to its purpose It is the result of hearing stupid arguments on the radio during work and then reading the same stupid logic in threads today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Everyone thinks the Founders thought what they themselves think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Everyone thinks the Founders thought what they themselves think. :laugh: Which is why they are wrong. The founders clearly were most aligned with what I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulane Skins Fan Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Everyone thinks the Founders thought what they themselves think. Actually, everyone thinks what the founders thought is important, BUT ONLY WHEN it is helpful to their argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stophovr6 Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Everyone thinks the Founders thought what they themselves think. Sick ****s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 :laugh: Which is why they are wrong. The founders clearly were most aligned with what I think The Founders believed in Allah? Who knew! :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 23, 2008 Author Share Posted May 23, 2008 Actually, everyone thinks what the founders thought is important, BUT ONLY WHEN it is helpful to their argument. Not really... most people just make up what the founders thought. They do it out of the mistaken belief that they understand what america was all about and that because they know this the founders must have agreed. Most of the time when you see "our founders" in a political argument it's impossible to find any basis for their statement other then a quote taken out of context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Not really... most people just make up what the founders thought. They do it out of the mistaken belief that they understand what america was all about and that because they know this the founders must have agreed. Most of the time when you see "our founders" in a political argument it's impossible to find any basis for their statement other then a quote taken out of context. Dont think for a second that your OP is exempt from my comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#98QBKiller Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 But, but, but....um....if you restrict the corporations in any way you're a socialist and you hate America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 23, 2008 Author Share Posted May 23, 2008 Dont think for a second that your OP is exempt from my comment. I was awake in history class. Your comment doesn't scare me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Happy Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Spot on. A country should be founded with a system of checks and balances to make sure that no person/group was able to gain too much power or abuse their power. When you are talking about people that command hundreds of billions of dollars, if not trillions, and the tremendous power that comes with it. How can you think there should be no system to keep checks and balances on them? When people get any kind of power, they immediately abuse it for personal gain. Could you imagine if Bush was allowed to be the dictator that he accidentally said he wanted to be? Even with our system, he's still able to wiggle around our checks and balances and erode our liberties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 You should start a similar thread to this about "trade" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 You should start a similar thread to this about "trade" And about Lobby's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 So what are we going to do? I kind've see it like this: Corporate capitalists are not necessarily patriots or loyal to a country or its people. So I guess you have to figure out which capitalists are patriots and loyal to your country... or which are relatively not as greedy as the next ones? At the same time you can't ignore that these people employ a whole lot of Americans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Everyone thinks the Founders thought what they themselves think. In addition, everyone thinks that most of the people think what they themselves think. Well, everybody but MSF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Through out american history you see a SLOW movement away from the original healthy fear of rich families and powerful corporations. As feared their influence did grow and it did start to gain political influence far greater than any founder intended. Actually, many of the founders may have feared financial interests, but they did not fear "rich families." The leading founders were, in large part, wealthy elitists who thought the country should be run by elites like themselves. They expected that the common man would recognize their talents and worthiness to lead, and would follow accordingly. Many of the surviving founding fathers were very distressed by the election of Andrew Jackson in 1828, which signaled the rise of "common man" populism in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 23, 2008 Author Share Posted May 23, 2008 So what are we going to do? I kind've see it like this: Corporate capitalists are not necessarily patriots or loyal to a country or its people. So I guess you have to figure out which capitalists are patriots and loyal to your country... or which are relatively not as greedy as the next ones? At the same time you can't ignore that these people employ a whole lot of Americans... It's not a question of greed it's a question of influence. Everything and everyone will predictably work in their best interest. The question is "Is allowing corporation to have this much influence in politics in the best interest of the American people?" Sadly this is never going to happen because when they have grown in influence so greatly that they actually write policy there is no way in hell we'll ever get them out of washington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Many of the surviving founding fathers were very distressed by the election of Andrew Jackson in 1828, which signaled the rise of "common man" populism in the US. Good thing we don't have that problem any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 23, 2008 Author Share Posted May 23, 2008 Actually, many of the founders may have feared financial interests, but they did not fear "rich families." The leading founders were, in large part, wealthy elitists who thought the country should be run by elites like themselves. They expected that the common man would recognize their talents and worthiness to lead, and would follow accordingly. Many of the surviving founding fathers were very distressed by the election of Andrew Jackson in 1828, which signaled the rise of "common man" populism in the US. I don't know if I'd take it that far. The founders were not big on the idea of the US becoming like England in which the wealthy became a ruling class. I don't mean rich families as in wealthy related people, I mean wealthy bloodlines that work to build their own influence by creating a seperate ruling class. The common man wasn't exactly as valued as it is today either. A healthy middle was favored to be certain, leaning towards those with some form of wealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpillian Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Many of the surviving founding fathers were very distressed by the election of Andrew Jackson in 1828, which signaled the rise of "common man" populism in the US. I didn't realize there were ANY surviving founding fathers. Man, why don't we just ask them!? :whoknows: BTW -- Good idea for a thread, Destino. It's an interesting topic of which I have little "non-Google" knowledge. Nice to see an opinion thread on something other than Obama, McCain, or Bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 I didn't realize there were ANY surviving founding fathers. Man, why don't we just ask them!? :whoknows: Heheh. As I recall, the letters of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson both showed that they despised Andrew Jackson and everything that he stood for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 I don't know if I'd take it that far. The founders were not big on the idea of the US becoming like England in which the wealthy became a ruling class. I don't mean rich families as in wealthy related people, I mean wealthy bloodlines that work to build their own influence by creating a seperate ruling class.The common man wasn't exactly as valued as it is today either. A healthy middle was favored to be certain, leaning towards those with some form of wealth. Oh, I agree with that, to an extent. They did not want people to have titles or nobility by blood. But they were still overt elitists, in comparison to political figures today who go bowling or drink whiskey or put on a John Deere cap to try to pretend to be one of the commonfolk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artmonkforHOF Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 I see way too many "what america is about" and founding fathers arugments that are completely out of line with reality. The founders of this country distrusted the corporate entitity and for much of this nations history corporations were severely limited. - Charters were granted with extremely limited life spans. - Corporation were not allowed to hold stock in others. - They were not allowed to donote to political campaigns. - They were only allowed to exist if they served a public need and not allowed to expand beyond it. - They were constantly reviewed to see if they were still serving the public interest and broken up if they were not. It is incredibly annoying to read aruments about socialization vs corporations and see the founders or "america" dragged into the fight when neither side represents this countries history correctly. America was not founded on the beliefs of Ronald goddamn Reagan. I'm an immigrant why do I know more about this than so many of you?! Through out american history you see a SLOW movement away from the original healthy fear of rich families and powerful corporations. As feared their influence did grow and it did start to gain political influence far greater than any founder intended. And now we are in the present were influence and money go hand in hand and the corporations write our policy. Is there any doubt in anyones mind that corporations and the wealthy have greater influence than the common american? This is exactly what this nation was trying to prevent.... socialism is likewise against the founding intent. America was supposed to be "we the peopple" not "we the government" or "we the powerful". your leaving out the most important part. When the founding fathers where upset with their governmental system, they banded together and kicked some British a**. I don't ever remeber a country being founded by blindly following your leader and not questions their actions what so ever, yet today, Americans think that anything that counters this logic is unpatriotic. WTF??? Its not unpatriotic, it jsut makes the people in power have to be accountable for their actions. How someone ties the piss poor decision making of one President to Patriotism is beyond me. If anyone can explain this to a simpleton like me please do. American's now think the Presidency is some sort of sacred position. Its not, and the person who holds that title can be wrong sometimes, yet so many Americans get pissed when someone critizies your president. If your founding fathers had the same attitude, there would be no United States of America, you would still be sucking back English tea at noon and most of the Western US would be split between Canada and Mexico. And Destino, you can see this for waht it is, becasue you are an immigrant and have not been brainwashed your entire life about how great your country and it's leader is. The truth is, America today is closer to the what the British Empire was in the 1700's than what the founding fathers had in mind, and if they where alive to see it, they would probably all be sick or kill themesleves in shame of their failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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