America's Most Overrated Product: the Bachelor's Degree

[chomerics]

When I was 23, I believed that too.

However it's simply not true.

Well then enlighten the rest of us Zoony where all these six figure salaries are with people that don't have an education. . .

Out of everyone that I have known in my entire life, almost to a T they make more money if they have a diploma. There are exceptions of course in everything, but people like yourself are acting like it is the rule rather than the exception.

If you want to make over $100K a year, and you don't have a degree, and you don't know anyone in an industry to "give you a shot" please show me where that job application is. . . because I think you are full of it.

Funny thing is I made great money when I was in my early 20's, uneducated as a business owner, it was for one season, but I did it. I also lost my business, and had to struggle for 4 more years paying off the debt and loans I took out for my business. Could I have made a different career? Sure, if I had better luck, and timing, but I was unlucky. I went back to college, and got my degree, now I am making just as much money, with benefits, paid vacations, and not all the stress associated with owning your own business. Which do I prefer? Well isn't it obvious?

Again, nobody said you can't make money without a degree, but unless you are from a rich family, have great connections, or are extremely lucky, your chances of making in the top 5% of income earners is slim and none. . .

in the year 2000 in MA. . .

Median income difference between high school graduates and those with bachelor's degrees (18-64 year-olds): $11,700

Median income, statewide (ages 18-64): $30,000

Median income, less than HS grad: $18,000

Median income, HS graduate: $24,300

Median income, somecollege: $24,000

Median income, associate degree: $30,000

Median income, bachelor's degree: $36,000

Median income, master's degree: $49,500

Median income, professional degree: $60,000

Median income, doctorate: $60,000

That is a 48% increase in salary from those with a degree and those without one, 48%!!! that is a HUGE number!!!

I would say that you NEED your degree if you want a good chance of being successful in this world, or you need to have both balls and nerves of steel. The numbers don't lie, they are plain as day for everyone to see. You will make just about 50% more than someone else when you compare salaries when people have a degree and people don't.

One more thing, for every person making the goldmine without a degree, how many people need to be at a low salary to account for the average being that low? In other words, for everyone making 7 figures with just a HS diploma, there needs to be 100 people making under the average just to even it out, not good odds if you ask me.

[jbooma]

If you want to make over $100K a year, and you don't have a degree, and you don't know anyone in an industry to "give you a shot" please show me where that job application is. . . because I think you are full of it.

.

Agree 100% here. When you get to someone at that level you are normally using a hiring agency to bring in someone. These agencies will not even look at a resume unless there is a degree on it. The reason is you have to pay these agencies and and they do not want to waste their time.

The crazy thing is requirements for certain positions is insane. I have seen IT Director positions where you need MCSE, CCNP, CCISP, PMP, A+ etc.... anyone here who undestands IT would look at that and go WTF :laugh:

[jbooma]

You're talking about me here. I would suggest though, not to limit your Search to candidates with Business degrees. How about English Majors?

I work as a IT Business Analyst and I don't think I ever even sent so much as an email in college. I was an English major with a Minor in American Studies.

I don't think a college degree is overrated at all, but I do think they often end up unrelated to the career you pursue.

On a separate note, "degrees" from places like U. Phoenix are a complete wate of time and money, IMO. These are money making operations, not institutes of higher learning.

I would be very open to someone with an english degree as long as they also have the business and IT knowledge. You are 100% about college though. My major at Mason was Business, but then I dropped out and then 5 years later just finished up my degree with an accelerated degree for Organizational Management and Development degree.

That english degree will put you ahead of so many people, the ability to communicate is vital if you want to advance.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I understand that. And if their plan proves successful -- if the Associate holders are full capable of doing the work -- it will simply prove that they shouldn't have been hiring 4-year degree holders for those positions in the first place.

:whoknows:

I think your situation is fairly exceptional.

They're also simplifying and compartmentalizing what they want the Engineers to do in the new system. So there's no doubt in my mind that the Associates Degree holders will be able to do the job. Hell, considering the quality of the Bachelor's Degree Engineers we have now, I'd suggest the Associates holders probably couldn't do much worse in those positions as they're currently constructed.

[Fergasun]

Nope, but you may get a better insight to the market place for your product, how to advertise it better, how to manage your company better, how to invest, and distribute your revenue streams, how to keep track of the money, how to manage the people around you etc. etc.

To insinuate you can do just as well running a business without and MBA than with an MBA shows you really have no idea what kind of insight the degree brings you. . .let me guess though, you are against higher education because they are all liberals right?

No, but I'd think if you are a successful businessmen you already are able to do these things effectively... so I'm just skeptical of the x10 factor. x3 or x4 would be quite reasonable, and if we are talking about going from 500k to 1500k... seems reasonable.. but to go from 500k to 5000k... doesn't seem like something you get just by being a bit book-smarter...

Although the type of transformation you're talking about will probably require multiple "smart" people in the company... and "smart" people generally hold more MBAs...

[GoCommiesGo]

I'm 25 years old I own my home, I have some college education (60 credits that add to nothing). I've worked full time since I was 18 years old, have a contract with the company I work for to be partial owner in the next 5 years.

A degree can not replace drive and work. I know plenty of people that have a BA or BS some make more than I do right now but withing the 5 year time period I will double what they make.

Education is wonderful thing I've learned a lot with the 20 or so classes I've taken but nothing can replace experience IMO. My wife is finishing her Masters degree this summer, after that she'll make the same amount I do right now. But within that 5 year period I'll still leap frog her.

In my experience I've found that the ability to work hard and problem solve on the fly trump a piece of paper. :2cents:

[F Landry]

From what I've surmised from this thread I have come to the following conclusion:

If you graduate from College a piece of paper somehow makes you better than people who did not graduate from college.

:doh:

This is silly.

Without trying to come off as an arrogant douchebag (trying to not reveal personal info. here), I know someone who dropped out of College and has made millions.

You don't HAVE to go to College to have a successful life. Please stop spreading this :pooh:.

[ChocolateCitySkin]

From what I've surmised from this thread I have come to the following conclusion:

If you graduate from College a piece of paper somehow makes you better than people who did not graduate from college.

:doh:

This is silly.

Without trying to come off as an arrogant douchebag (trying to not reveal personal info. here), I know someone who dropped out of College and has made millions.

You don't HAVE to go to College to have a successful life. Please stop spreading this :pooh:.

this all depends on how you define success... i don't define money as success i define it as having a responsibility to society. no matter how much money a person has made i wouldn't think of them as highly as an individual that by code has a responsibility for a greater good.

thats what separates doctors and club owners... so if a persons happy just making some money thats their choice. i'm personally not... its elitist but then again these are the people that keep society going... not the club owners and football players.

[DeanCollins]

eh, am i the only one that sees value in being considered a professional. call it elitism but i like being able to talk to a doctor or lawyer as if you're on the same intellectual level.

the reason contractors make lots of money is risk vs. reward. in the seventies architects decided to mitigate their risk and transfer them over to the contractors (big mistake).

anyways, the AIA is hammering out a new construction model that essentially turns each product into a business entity where the owner, architect and contractor share profits upon completion. with bim modeling becoming more powerful cds are being produced at earlier points for contractors... of course, this model benefits everyone except shady under skilled contractors... i think you're going to see a reemergence of the value of professional architects and devaluation of sub-par contractors.

the days of illiterate contractors are numbered...

heres a graph of this new project delivery system and its potential cost impact...

honestly, this is going to require skilled well educated contractors --

hell the pentagon memorial wouldn't deal with any contractors that didn't know what a 3dm file was... as technology improves so do prerequisites for contractors.

unless you are a traditional contractor -- always jobs for true craftsmans.

Ccity people that draw pictures will never make as much money as those that actually build, get over it. . One of the GC companies that I worked for, as a project manager, built nothing but government buildings. Their niche' market was blueprints with lots of mistakes. We made triple the "planned profit" on change orders from the mistakes by AIA "professionals" :laugh: . The AIA industry "professionals" are about as hated as attorneys. Their last "model" which isn't going too well, was charging 3% of the construction cost flat rate. If you really believe that the Contractors are going to share profits with the AIA, I've got some water front FL property to sell you . You need to leave the Building to us Building Professionals

[The 12th Commandment]

If you work for a big company or the government it helps you without question. Not everyone wants to or can be an entrepreneur. There is risk. If I would've stayed working for myself doing real estate appraisals (where the potential to make a lot of money existed) instead of changing careers to be a civil servant, I would've been effed when I got sick and had to have major surgery.

Going to work for the county was, in hindsight, the best decision I've ever made. My degree, as poofy as a BS in Geography might be, has got me the top position in my field in 7 years. That and a whole lot of hard work and extreme cleverness. I have smarter guys working for me and making less money than I do.

So, final conclusion, it depends on your field and what you want or will be happy with. The security and pension I have are priceless IMO and make me sleep easy every night. When I worked for myself that was not the case, I rarely slept well, although I made more on a daily basis.

[ChocolateCitySkin]

Ccity people that draw pictures will never make as much money as those that actually build, get over it. . One of the GC companies that I worked for, as a project manager, built nothing but government buildings. Their niche' market was blueprints with lots of mistakes. We made triple the "planned profit" on change orders from the mistakes by AIA "professionals" :laugh: . The AIA industry "professionals" are about as hated as attorneys. Their last "model" which isn't going too well, was charging 3% of the construction cost flat rate. If you really believe that the Contractors are going to share profits with the AIA, I've got some water front FL property to sell you . You need to leave the Building to us Building Professionals

ah nice, gotta love contractors that give low bids with the intention of making their money up on change orders...

okay lemme explain how technology is going to do away with those practices: architect comes up with schematic design in bim format (building information modeling) architect gets okay from owner -- sends file to engineers -- engineers take said model and insert mechanical equipment and verify structure -- analysis says structure intersects electrical conduit -- error corrected -- bim model sent to singapore and inserted into a "spell checker for codes" everything is up to code. mechanical electrical and structural model has no problems... off to cds for contractor.

remember its all about risk vs. reward -- in this case the contractors aren't taking a risk anymore (the risk being they're gonna make their profits in change orders) -- and when you show an owner that graph i think they are going to be inclined to use that model. and thats all that matters

sorry man, once bim modeling is completely mainstream -- i imagine in the next five years -- that model i proposed is going to a standard (one that rewards quality work)

oh yeah and to call yourself a professional you need a code of ethics

[jbooma]

From what I've surmised from this thread I have come to the following conclusion:

If you graduate from College a piece of paper somehow makes you better than people who did not graduate from college.

:doh:

This is silly.

You are missing the point. A degree just gives you more opportunity and more chances to get that job. Yes nothing beats hard work and determination, but to get that break more and more you need a degree. Especially in the larger cities where there is so much competition.

The only reason I went back and finished college while working fulltime is to get that opportunity that has put me where I am now.

Some people are lucky and will not need, what many on this thread are saying that is the minority.

[wysknz1]

Let's blame science and math education in high school.

Instead of "Fair Play' and "Condom Use".

[More Complete]

Some people are lucky and will not need, what many on this thread are saying that is the minority.

Here we go again with the "lucky" mantra.

Anyone who is sucessful without a degree is "lucky". Please. I can't believe how many people who seem smart otherwise actually think this way. I agree about being the minority thing though.

If you want to make over $100K a year, and you don't have a degree, and you don't know anyone in an industry to "give you a shot" please show me where that job application is. . . because I think you are full of it.

I think you are forgetting that you have to work to make money. You don't just get a six figure salary overnight because you are a nice guy who got a golden application. No one is going to hand it to you. You have to start at the bottom and earn it, believe me. Unless, as you said, you have some serious connections or a wealthy family or something.

I’m not arguing that people with a degree do not (on average) make more than those without one, because they do. That said, the idea that someone without a degree has no chance is equally incorrect.

I think we agree that a college degree gives you better odds in most cases. It just bothers me that when I tell someone I’m a high school dropout who makes six figures they assume that I am lucky, fortunate or have cheated the system in some way. I bet if we met for a business meeting the question of whether or not I went to college would never even come up. In fact, I know it wouldn’t because it never has.

Regardless, money isn’t everything in life nor does it make one person better than another. Likewise, a degree does not make someone smarter than those without, IMHO.

In my experience I've found that the ability to work hard and problem solve on the fly trump a piece of paper. :2cents:

Agreed. In my line of work you either know your stuff or you don’t. You can’t fake it. This is the same for just about any decent paying job. Now in order to “know your stuff” for many occupations, college is a must. I wouldn’t want a doctor or lawyer without a degree that’s for sure! But that’s not to say that it is a necessity for every career.