Why I'm no longer going to suport Obama

[JMS]

real estate agents are making less money than they were 5 years ago. H1B visas must be at fault.

Very clever... does your realistate theory have the Chairman of the FED advocating for increasing H1B's to reduce salaries in technology? Software developers do..

WASHINGTON -- Former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan said allowing more skilled immigrants to work in the United States would help keep the income gap from widening. Inequality of incomes is the "critical area where capitalist systems are most vulnerable," Greenspan said yesterday in Washington at a conference on maintaining the competitiveness of US capital markets convened by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson. "You cannot have a system that we have unless the people who participate in it believe it is just." http://www.rense.com/general75/skilled.htm

There is a broad consensus that the H-1Bs are indeed exploited in terms of wages and working conditions. This was found in

• the study at UCLA, which found that the immigrant engineers were paid 33% less than comparable Americans
  
• the study at Cornell University, which found underpayment of H-1B programmers and engineers by 20-30%
  
• my study at UC Davis, finding that immigrant programmers and electrical engineers were paid 15-20% less than comparable Americans
  
• the report by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which found that the computer-related H-1Bs were paid a median of $53,000 per year, far below the national median of $66,000 for this field
  
• the audit done by the Department of Labor, finding that 19% of the H-1Bs were not even paid the salaries promised by the employers on the visa application forms
  
• the report by the National Research Council, which found that ``H-1B workers requiring lower levels of IT skill received lower wages, less senior job titles, smaller signing bonuses, and smaller pay and compensation increases than would be typical for the work they did''
  
• articles in respected, pro-business publications such as Forbes Magazine (``Indian programmers working in the U.S. on temporary H-1B visas typically earn 25% to 30% less than their naturalized colleagues'') and the Wall Street Journal (``recruiting foreign talent is cheaper than hiring Americans''
  
• statements by the H-1Bs themselves, who have formed the national organization ISN (www.isn.org) with a goal of persuading Congress to reform the program
  

One need not even use data sets to see the problem. Most H-1Bs are de facto indentured servants, unable to switch jobs. Thus they cannot leave for a higher-paying job elsewhere, nor can they negotiate higher wages with their present employers by threatening to leave. So, they have lesser opportunities than do normal workers who are free to move about in the market. Thus it is indisputable, from basic economic principles, that on average they are making less money than they would if they had their freedom.

http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html

Can you show any site claiming H1B's repress realestate wages?

[wskin44]

OK JMS, for discussion let's accept your premise that this is all about U.S. companies locking up cheap foreign labor for high tech jobs. The U.S. has some of the highest wages in the world, along with one of the highest standards of living. Our trade deficit would indicate that many products and services are being produced cheaper outside of this country, even excluding oil from the numbers. How can American companies compete if our products are too expensive? If American workers demand higher wages than foreign workers then doesn't it make cold business sense to hire foreign workers?

The reality is that the USA has been on top of the economic food chain since WWII and that many other country's standard of living is beginning to catch up. It's a natural economic process that is inevitable but needs to be managed. Rather than fight it at every step it might be better for the nation to stand back and look for the long term opportunities. The fundamental truth of trade is that some countries/individuals either are blessed with raw materials/talents that others need but don't have and some countries/individuals learn to produce needed products more efficiently than other countries/individuals can on their own. So everyone finds their niche on both a micro and macro economic level and the natural process HAS ALWAYS BEEN to seek the most efficient system for the production and distribution of products etc. So rather than fight it, we have to be smart.

Would you rather that the American Companies hiring H1B employees just open up shop oversees and hire their foreign workers there? Obviously many American companies do this and many that didn't went out of business. Chip and circuit board makers is a good example. Just 6 or 7 years ago there were over 200 circuit board makers in this country. Now there are fewer than twenty and most of them stay in business by farming out production overseas. I'm making an assumption here, but at least H1B workers pay American taxes and generate spending power within the American economy. Overseas workers do not.

So if a company needs to cut labor expense to compete would you rather they send the jobs out of the country? Another question: At some point if American talent is getting pushed out of these jobs and working at restaurants then why don't they just lower their wage demands?

[JMS]

The problem is that JMS only paints one side of the story and does so to the extreme.

I'm pointing to the median or majority case in 2008. You are reasoning by folks who you know who are not representative the H1B program. Folks who likely were H1B's a decade or more ago when the program was a fraction of what it is now.

Even H1B's are brining up the issues I've raised. Are they Xenophobic too?

http://www.lehigh.edu/~amsp/2007/05/maltreated-h-1b-workers-begin-to-find.html

[chiplohmillers#1]

JMS you seem like a bright guy. It's a shame to hear that you havent been able to climb the corporate ladder into a position that can't be outsourced. I mean your making a big deal about companies that hire MBA level Foreign employees to code.

Unfortunatley the talent is better over there and at a lower cost.

Your best course of action would be to quit ****ing a moaning and update your resume.

[PeterMP]

Very clever... does your realistate theory have the Chairman of the FED advocating for increasing H1B's to reduce salaries in technology? Software developers do..

There is a broad consensus that the H-1Bs are indeed exploited in terms of wages and working conditions. This was found in

• the study at UCLA, which found that the immigrant engineers were paid 33% less than comparable Americans
  
• the study at Cornell University, which found underpayment of H-1B programmers and engineers by 20-30%
  
• my study at UC Davis, finding that immigrant programmers and electrical engineers were paid 15-20% less than comparable Americans
  
• the report by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which found that the computer-related H-1Bs were paid a median of $53,000 per year, far below the national median of $66,000 for this field
  
• the audit done by the Department of Labor, finding that 19% of the H-1Bs were not even paid the salaries promised by the employers on the visa application forms
  
• the report by the National Research Council, which found that ``H-1B workers requiring lower levels of IT skill received lower wages, less senior job titles, smaller signing bonuses, and smaller pay and compensation increases than would be typical for the work they did''
  
• articles in respected, pro-business publications such as Forbes Magazine (``Indian programmers working in the U.S. on temporary H-1B visas typically earn 25% to 30% less than their naturalized colleagues'') and the Wall Street Journal (``recruiting foreign talent is cheaper than hiring Americans''
  
• statements by the H-1Bs themselves, who have formed the national organization ISN (www.isn.org) with a goal of persuading Congress to reform the program
  

So does this all mean you are ready to admit that you lied/were wrong when in the OP you said:

For those of you who aren't familiar with this controversial work visa. This visa allows companies to hire workers in India or China and pay them 50-60% of what An American makes.

Now, what is the cost of the company (including salary and benefits for the people that do the paper work) for them to sponsor somebody for an H1B visa, and then for the percentage that do go onto get a green card at the company that cost too.

Over all, is the H1B visa person really cheaper?

[DjTj]

I'm pointing to the median or majority case in 2008. You are reasoning by folks who you know who are not representative the H1B program. Folks who likely were H1B's a decade or more ago when the program was a fraction of what it is now.

Even H1B's are brining up the issues I've raised. Are they Xenophobic too?

http://www.lehigh.edu/~amsp/2007/05/maltreated-h-1b-workers-begin-to-find.html

I think most reasonable people agree that there is a problem.

The question is: What is the solution?

Raising the H-1B quota to 200,000 in 2001 while the employment-based green card quota stayed at 140,000 was completely retarded, and all those H-1B holders have been in limbo since that year.

At least we have reduced the H-1B cap back down to 65,000, but hundreds of thousands of visa holders are still stuck waiting in line. Nobody should be living and working in the country for five or ten years without becoming eligible for a green card (which means you are still five years from citizenship) ... it's just stupid.

The obvious solution is to raise the green card quota. We need to give these people permanent resident status so they won't be exploited, and they won't go back to their home countries. These are highly skilled workers who have come to the country legally and are contributing to the economy - there is no reason to make them wait a decade to get on a path to citizenship.

As Obama said:

Google search for OBama on H1B produced this site, following quote is from it:

http://pradeepc.net/blog/?p=193

We should allow immigrants who earn their degrees in the U.S. to stay, work, and become Americans over time. As part of our comprehensive reform, we should examine our ability to replace a stopgap increase in the number of H1B visas with an increase in the number of permanent visas we issue to foreign skilled workers. I will also work to ensure immigrant workers are less dependent on their employers for their right to stay in the country and would hold accountable employers who abuse the system and their workers.

[PeterMP]

I'm pointing to the median or majority case in 2008. You are reasoning by folks who you know who are not representative the H1B program. Folks who likely were H1B's a decade or more ago when the program was a fraction of what it is now.

Even H1B's are brining up the issues I've raised. Are they Xenophobic too?

http://www.lehigh.edu/~amsp/2007/05/maltreated-h-1b-workers-begin-to-find.html

You are reasoning by the H1B visa status as of 5 years ago not currently, and even then your reasoning by a broad generalization.

Look, there are issues. Things changed. There needs to be time to readjust. The number of H1B visas got to high. They've come down (as your own graph shows). We will either up the green cards or those people will be sent home.

Currently, I don't know if the number of new H1B visas out paces the number of green cards, and I doubt you do either. It is difficult to find numbers on total H1B visas because the amount to academia isn't regulated, but I'm pretty sure that for the last several years the number of H1B's given to industry isn't ahead of the number of green cards.

There was/is a lag.

I know people NOW that are here on H1B's that have started a family, have good jobs, bought homes, own cars, and generally contribute in a postive manner to our economy and our country. They hope to get a green card.

You've got them all working here at 50-60% discounts for 3-6 years and then back on a plane to India or China leaving everybody in the US with a job in science and technology out of work, and them living on the high life in whatever country they came from.

The vast majority are making good salaries, like it here, and will stay if we want/let them. That is the majority.

[Predicto]

I think most reasonable people agree that there is a problem.

The question is: What is the solution?

Apparently, the solution is to blame Barack Obama.

Just kidding. This is a fascinating discussion about which I know absolutely nothing, other than one anecdotal fact. Pretty much all of the H1B's I have met (and there are a zillion of them out here) plan to stay in the US if it is at all possible for them to do so. They are not trying to take jobs back to India or China - they are trying to get a foot in the door here.

[JMS]

OK JMS, for discussion let's accept your premise that this is all about U.S. companies locking up cheap foreign labor for high tech jobs. The U.S. has some of the highest wages in the world, along with one of the highest standards of living. Our trade deficit would indicate that many products and services are being produced cheaper outside of this country, even excluding oil from the numbers. How can American companies compete if our products are too expensive? If American workers demand higher wages than foreign workers then doesn't it make cold business sense to hire foreign workers?

A few thoughts here.

India is now the #1 employer of high tech folks, yet they produce almost no indigounous products. They are almost exclusively body shops for US companies. By your logic one would expect the Indian softwre market to have a competing Operating system or Word processor to Microsoft, a competing database to Oracle, So where is this competition which you claim is pressuring US firms to outsource? Which computer market or foreign country or company compete with American multinationals effectively? There aren't any.

Secondly if your claiming that American workers make to much and are too expensive. Compared to the relivent wage in China or India which job segement in the United States isn't "too expensive". Isn't the way the marketplace works is for higher wages to encourage more folks going into those fields, which inturn suppress wages? What we currently have is 1.1 million H1B indentured servents suppressing wages artificially which in tern has lead to a reduction of US students going into the field.

Lastly, what segement of our economy would not be totally devistated by a million low priced workers entering the country to take their jobs.

The reality is that the USA has been on top of the economic food chain since WWII and that many other country's standard of living is beginning to catch up. It's a natural economic process that is inevitable but needs to be managed. Rather than fight it at every step it might be better for the nation to stand back and look for the long term opportunities. The fundamental truth of trade is that some countries/individuals either are blessed with raw materials/talents that others need but don't have and some countries/individuals learn to produce needed products more efficiently than other countries/individuals can on their own. So everyone finds their niche on both a micro and macro economic level and the natural process HAS ALWAYS BEEN to seek the most efficient system for the production and distribution of products etc. So rather than fight it, we have to be smart.

So what you are saying is Indians and Chinese just are smarter folks than Americans. So naturaly they should get the smarter job niches. Not in their countries, but in ours. That since Chinese and Indians have demonstrated their superior engineering abilities by gettnig to the moon faster, having a superior auto industry, having supeior infrastructure(roads, telecomunications etc.. )... and just building on their supeior software products for the market; that's it's natural for us to take advantage of their supeior skills.

Problem is Indians aren't better engineers, nor are the Chineese. They historically aren't better or smarter in any way to Americans. One rather can make the case Americans traditionally have done pretty well in open competition with these second and third world counter parts.

The only advantage Indian and Chinese engineers have is #1 their willingness to work for low wages. #2 the legal framework wich allows corporations to indenture them and hold them for 6 years or more.

Would you rather that the American Companies hiring H1B employees just open up shop oversees and hire their foreign workers there? Obviously many American companies do this and many that didn't went out of business.

Actually the three largest companies which get H1B visa's are Indian companies which job shop their people to US firms. And most American H1B visa holders today do end up back in their home companies working in the technology field in outsourced American jobs.

Chip and circuit board makers is a good example. Just 6 or 7 years ago there were over 200 circuit board makers in this country. Now there are fewer than twenty and most of them stay in business by farming out production overseas. I'm making an assumption here, but at least H1B workers pay American taxes and generate spending power within the American economy. Overseas workers do not.

It's not a good example unless the foreign circuit bord makers were allowed to enter into the United States to train their employees before taking the jobs back to India or China.

So if a company needs to cut labor expense to compete would you rather they send the jobs out of the country? Another question: At some point if American talent is getting pushed out of these jobs and working at restaurants then why don't they just lower their wage demands?

#1 that's exactly what companies are doing now.

#2 because lower starting wages are just one component of the advantage H1B's have with American corporations. Not being able to change jobs for six years or more, and not being able to negotiate higher salaries through wage increases during that time are more advanteges.

But I see your point. If American workers want to stay employed in a feild they largely invented, they should be prepared to give up all their rights to do so.

[Destino]

I'm not reading this entire thread but I'm assuming that I'm one of the few in favor of raising the number of H1B visas and the greencard quota needed to support it. I don't share the view of indentured servants presented in this thread, and frankly I think that's crap. People with skills want to come here and countries in need of a work force need access to that labor pool. The alternative, as Bill Gates has said and shown, is to outsource. It's not a big deal to rent some office space and set up programmers there at small wages so if they can't bring the employees here the choice is simple.

Having known many immigrants that came here on H1B visas I can tell you they were very happy for the chance (though their would be better off with green card quotas increased). The choice of keeping the jobs in the US simply isn't on the table, our tech pool is a puddle. The choice is outsource or the traditional means, import the worlds best and brightest to the US. There is no protectionist position available short of forcing employers to hire americans becuase restricting H1B's is going to increase outsourcing not creat US jobs. Better to have immigrants working here and paying taxes then jobs sent outside where no american can compete for them.

[zoony]

India is now the #1 employer of high tech folks, yet they produce almost no indigounous products. They are almost exclusively body shops for US companies. By your logic one would expect the Indian softwre market to have a competing Operating system or Word processor to Microsoft, a competing database to Oracle, So where is this competition which you claim is pressuring US firms to outsource? Which computer market or foreign country or company compete with American multinationals effectively? There aren't any.

This is where you couldn't be more wrong JMS.

India is well on its way. I remember reading somewhere that INDIAN companies are already dominating certain things like software development for Gaming, etc. It won't be long before India is a major player.

The thing about India is that it is one of the most educated societies on earth. They give out advanced engineering degrees like we distribute HS Diplomas around here. What has hampered India is 2 things:

1. Their quasi-communist government that stifled their economy for years (which is no longer an issue)

2. They were effectively cut off from the outside world in terms of communications. (the tech boom of the late 90's where millions of miles of cable were laid across the oceans solved THIS problem.)

So with those two things, it's no surprise that in the last decade we've seen a TON of technical jobs outsourced to India, which now is (a) accessible and (b)technically capable.

India is a giant waiting to burst onto the international scene. In 10 years you are going to see Indian car dealerships here, and you're going to be using software developed in India, etc. etc.

I'm just glad we have leaders with the foresight to realize you are either getting better or getting worse on the international stage. Crippling our economy in the name of saving jobs for a few Americans who shouldn't even be doing them (economically speaking) would be a terrible idea. The kind of thing I'd expect Ron Paul to say quite frankly.

....

[ChocolateCitySkin]

I seriously think I'm going to write in Lou Dobbs.

dude seriously tanking economy means no outsourcing... good economy means outsourcing-- we're not going to lose jobs if our economy sucks.

[Air Force Cane]

Based on your beliefs:

Ralph Nader should be getting your vote. Congrats for standing up for what you believe in.

[Fieldy]

I would be curious as to what Lou Dobbs has to say about this.

I would also like this issue brought up in debates

As would I...the very industry that I am in (database management/data analysis) is one that is directly in the line of fire from the H1B Visas.

[wskin44]

AFC, I'm curious, why did the Air Force award our refueling tankers to a French company? I only saw the headlines, but if the US Military can't be loyal to American workers then private businesses never will.

[alexey]

Some people would be out of jobs if we started outsourcing forum trolling

[JMS]

You are reasoning by the H1B visa status as of 5 years ago not currently, and even then your reasoning by a broad generalization.

I'm the only one who is posting studies by major Universities and the US Government to back up his statements.

Look, there are issues. Things changed. There needs to be time to readjust. The number of H1B visas got to high. They've come down (as your own graph shows). We will either up the green cards or those people will be sent home.

Well we are sending them home.. But that's not what I'm discussing.

Currently, I don't know if the number of new H1B visas out paces the number of green cards, and I doubt you do either. It is difficult to find numbers on total H1B visas because the amount to academia isn't regulated, but I'm pretty sure that for the last several years the number of H1B's given to industry isn't ahead of the number of green cards.

Well since the voice of the H1B's themselves is claiming it takes 6-12 years to obtain a green card even if you have an employer who is willing to sponsor you that would mean we are currently right on the crest of the wave of 200,000 applicants a year which we let in back in 2001, 2, and 3.

http://www.lehigh.edu/~amsp/2007/05/maltreated-h-1b-workers-begin-to-find.html

I know people NOW that are here on H1B's that have started a family, have good jobs, bought homes, own cars, and generally contribute in a postive manner to our economy and our country. They hope to get a green card.

And you present them as representative of H1B's in this country? Even though they likely work in Chemestry and the majority of H1B's work in software. Even though they work for a University ( possible) and the majority of H1B's in this country work for Indian body shops.

You've got them all working here at 50-60% discounts for 3-6 years and then back on a plane to India or China leaving everybody in the US with a job in science and technology out of work, and them living on the high life in whatever country they came from.

That's pretty accurate. except of course your absolute statement. The H1B visa lasts for about 6 years and there aren't enough green cards to allow the vast majority of H1B's to sucessfully get them. Fact is since 2001 many H1B's don't even want green cards. They would rather return to their own country where their standard of living is improved and they can work in their own countries growing software industry based largely on outsourced American jobs. Former H1B visa holders are highly sought after in India and China.

The vast majority are making good salaries, like it here, and will stay if we want/let them. That is the majority.

Well I don't know what "good salaries" means. I do know that they are making less then Americand would for the jobs they are doing.

Greenspan claimed that's the entire reasoning behind the H1B increase effort, to suppress wages..

http://www.rense.com/general75/skilled.htm

Center for immigration studies reports..

the actual wages reported for H-1B workers were significantly less than those of their American counterparts

http://www.cis.org/articles/2007/back407.html

Info world asks..

Is it really justice to suppress the wages of skilled people?

Two US Senators respond to a law offices H1B how to video which appeared on YouTube last year.

http://pcworld.about.com/od/techindustrytrends/U-S-Labor-Department-Seeks-Pr.htm

In a letter to U.S. Department of Labor Secretary Elaine Chao, Grassley and Smith characterized the video as "exposing the blatant disregard for American workers and deliberate attempt to bring in cheaper foreign workers through the H-1B program." They also want the labor secretary to review the video and investigate "the law firm's unethical procedures and advice to clients."

In the video, a person identified as Lawrence Lebowitz, an attorney at the firm Cohen & Grigsby PC in Pittsburgh, explains how U.S. companies can avoid hiring U.S. workers. "Our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested U.S. worker," said Lebowitz in the video. "And that, in a sense, sounds funny, but it's what we are trying to do here."

Grassley and Smith also wrote Cohen & Grigsby, noting that "your firm's video advises employers how to hire only foreign labor, while making it nearly impossible for a qualified American worker to get the job....

[JMS]

JMS you seem like a bright guy. It's a shame to hear that you havent been able to climb the corporate ladder into a position that can't be outsourced.

I currently own my own company, but thank you very much. Reasoning that the only folks concerned about halving the technologically literate people in the country are the folks loosing their jobs..

that makes perfect sense.

I mean your making a big deal about companies that hire MBA level Foreign employees to code. Unfortunatley the talent is better over there and at a lower cost. Your best course of action would be to quit ****ing a moaning and update your resume.

I'm just noting that H1B visa program isn't given out to the best and brightest as you claim.. It's given out by lottery. H1B's aren't better qualified, they're just cheaper.

[PeterMP]

You've got them all working here at 50-60% discounts for 3-6 years and then back on a plane to India or China leaving everybody in the US with a job in science and technology out of work, and them living on the high life in whatever country they came from.

That's pretty accurate. except of course your absolute statement. The H1B visa lasts for about 6 years and there aren't enough green cards to allow the vast majority of H1B's to sucessfully get them. Fact is since 2001 many H1B's don't even want green cards. They would rather return to their own country where their standard of living is improved and they can work in their own countries growing software industry based largely on outsourced American jobs. Former H1B visa holders are highly sought after in India and China.

Find the link that shows that. Your own links at the MOST have the difference at 30%. If it is 50-60%, then why didn't any of the studies you post show that?

Show me a link that says since 2001 many H1B's don't want a green card.

You'll admit that there is a lot of competition for green cards. That there are more people that WANT to stay than there are green cards. Right?

That is many of them. Again here is a link about the green card protest:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/17/AR2007071701825.html

"The U.S. government announced yesterday that it will accept applications for employer-sponsored green cards that it rejected earlier this month, after facing mounting public pressure, possible litigation and a cascade of flowers."

Where is any evidence that many of them want to leave?

Where is any evidence that IF they do leave, they are better off where they came from then when they were here?

As far as your other stuff, yes there is abuse in the system. That should be eliminated. I'm all for eliminating goverment corruption. You can do that independent of eliminating H1B visas.

[JMS]

Apparently, the solution is to blame Barack Obama.

Just kidding. This is a fascinating discussion about which I know absolutely nothing, other than one anecdotal fact. Pretty much all of the H1B's I have met (and there are a zillion of them out here) plan to stay in the US if it is at all possible for them to do so. They are not trying to take jobs back to India or China - they are trying to get a foot in the door here.

And yet the folks currently applying for green cards are from 2001, 2 and three when H1B visa quota's were trippled. Green cards were not trippled. Those folks are going home and they are taking the jobs with them.

Boston Globe

High-tech talent flows back to India

http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2005/08/08/high_tech_talent_flows_back_to_india/?page=1

And that was in 2005 when the 200,000 H1B visa holders from 2001,2 and 3 hadn't yet even hit the green card lines.

You don't currently hear any clammering for more Green Cards rather you hear clammering for more H1B visa's... Why do you think that is?

[JMS]

As would I...the very industry that I am in (database management/data analysis) is one that is directly in the line of fire from the H1B Visas.

Lou is a vocal critic of the H1B visa program. Lou has done more to publisize this travesty than any other journalist in the country.

[JMS]

Find the link that shows that. Your own links at the MOST have the difference at 30%. If it is 50-60%, then why didn't any of the studies you post show that?

I said H1B's are making 50%/60% of what American workers are. I showed studies from major universities which show They are on average 30% cheaper than Amercan's seeking the same job. Are you really arguing that I am totally off base because of a 10% discrepency in my specific statement when applied generally across an entire study on average?

Or are you going to man up and admit that I've quoted studies which back up my positions and you've offered nothing but observation from a fringe H1B job niche, chemistry.

Are you going to admit that H1B's are cheaper. Are indentured, are legislatively more desirable employes all based on wages and cost...

That in 2001, 2002, and 2003 when H1B visas were tripled to 195,000 companies still exhosted the VISA supply by lotery within days or weeks of the VISA's becoming availible, even though the technology jobs in this country were contracting due to the .Net Bouble at the time.

Or are you still claiming H1B's who can afford to purchase homes, have two cars, and have families are representative of the average workers coming here?

Ask any of your former H1B visa budies if...

#1... Their salary didn't marketly increase when they obtained their green card.

#2 They didn't change jobs altogether after getting their green card for a significantly higher wage.

[DjTj]

You don't currently hear any clammering for more Green Cards rather you hear clammering for more H1B visa's... Why do you think that is?

American businesses have more political clout than visa holders who can't vote? (and won't be able to vote for at least a decade under the current system) :whoknows:

There is a strong grass-roots anti-immigration movement in the country now that doesn't want to see increased green cards? :whoknows:

[alexey]

And yet the folks currently applying for green cards are from 2001, 2 and three when H1B visa quota's were trippled. Green cards were not trippled. Those folks are going home and they are taking the jobs with them.

Boston Globe

High-tech talent flows back to India

http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2005/08/08/high_tech_talent_flows_back_to_india/?page=1

And that was in 2005 when the 200,000 H1B visa holders from 2001,2 and 3 hadn't yet even hit the green card lines.

You don't currently hear any clammering for more Green Cards rather you hear clammering for more H1B visa's... Why do you think that is?

Many countries are working really hard to attract quality workers. Standards of living are going up in these developing countries and so are wages. Global marketplace is changing.

You are complaining about people going back... just wait until they stop coming here altogether, or until our quality people start looking overseas for more attractive jobs and places to live.

(by the way, could the painful process of obtaining a green card play a role in motivating people away from it?)

[JMS]

American businesses have more political clout than visa holders who can't vote? (and won't be able to vote for at least a decade under the current system) :whoknows:

I agree with that. American businesses want more H1B visa's but don't care about more Green cards for the H1B visa holders who they currently employ.

Am I getting ahead of you in this argument?

There is a strong grass-roots anti-immigration movement in the country now that doesn't want to see increased green cards? :whoknows:

Their is a strong grass roots movement in this country against illegal immigration, not legal immigration. I've heard of no grass root critics against green cards. There is a large grass roots movement especially in the high tech segment against H1B visa's.

Again why do you think that is?

Anyway you cut it companies like Microsoft and Bill Gates appeared before congress last week clammering for more H1B visa's to remain compeditive. They aren't clammering for more greencards for the folks they are about to loose.

The moment these H1B's get their citizenship or green cards they are not indentured anylonger and American companies loose interest in them.

It's an economic issue, not one based on competition.