Why I'm no longer going to suport Obama

[wskin44]

There is so much good information in this thread. I have to go back and read a lot of it to really inderstand it. I will respond to JMS later. I hope you all keep checking back for a few days.

JMS, if American companies are wrong about American workers then why not start your own company and prove THEM wrong? And make a few bucks.

[Corcaigh]

Predicto get off the best, brightest, and hardest working tract. H1B visa's are given out by lottery. They are the luckiest, the fleet of foot, but most importantly the cheapest. The Best and brightest is just propaganda.

It's silly discussing anything with you when you behave like this. The current demand for H-1B visas exceeds the current limit. Which employer applications are reviewed for approval is determined by a lottery system because of the excess demand.

People are NOT getting H-1B visas through a lottery. Speed is not a factor (so long as they meet the submission deadline) in a H-1B application being reviewed, cost is not a factor in a H-1B application being reviewed. Luck only plays a part in so far as there is an excess demand and a lottery determines which applications are considered.

[33]

It's silly discussing anything with you when you behave like this. The current demand for H-1B visas exceeds the current limit. Which employer applications are reviewed for approval is determined by a lottery system because of the excess demand.

People are NOT getting H-1B visas through a lottery. Speed is not a factor (so long as they meet the submission deadline) in a H-1B application being reviewed, cost is not a factor in a H-1B application being reviewed. Luck only plays a part in so far as there is an excess demand and a lottery determines which applications are considered.

Wow. If this is correct, than a major portion of this thread is for the bottom of the bird cage. :doh:

[alexey]

You have to actually read the article there alexey...

http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2005/08/08/high_tech_talent_flows_back_to_india/?page=1

That's just in the Boston Area and just in 2005 before the 2001, 2002 and 2003 peak numbers of H1B's hit the green card line.

I did read the article. Let's talk about it.

The article is called "talent flows back." It describes what happened to Pavan Tadepalli and Joga Ryalisays. It says that a business publication in India called The Economic Times estimated that 35,000 Indians have returned to a high-tech center in and around Bangalore and provides no link. It also says:

Neither the US nor the Indian government keeps count of how many Indian employees have left the American workforce to return to India.

[PeterMP]

An H1B makes 50% to 60% of what an American makes....

Cornel University study I quoted found H1B's made 30% less than American's workers made on average for their same job.

Follow the math...

60% of what an American makes means he's making 40% less than an American makes...

6+4 =10... don't forget to carry the one.

33% less than Amercan workers made on average based on the UCLA study is 7% less than 40%...

( See UCLA study top bellow quoted studies. ).

My fault.

No study, I'm using your empiricle evidence but I actually work in the field. Here is a Newspaper article..

Oh and if you are claiming most H1B's currently don't return back home... please provide a link yourself for the first time in this discussion to that factoid.

I'm not claiming that most don't go home. I'm claiming that many don't want to go home, and some are going home that don't want to.

You know what my study is? Every year every single availible green card is taken for these people. There is never a year where we say, 'Hey there are extra green cards to employeers.' This of course despite the fact the process is a pain and a neck to go through.

Here's another study for you. In some industries people actually need and are willing to pay foreign workers. Want to now my study on that? It is the same information. Every year employers go through of hassle of sponsoring people for green cards to the extent that every green card availible to employers is used.

If it was just about skills and money this wouldn't happen. The people on the expiring H1B visa would go home and get new jobs in their home country, the employers wouldn't sponsor them for green cards and just get a new set of foreing workers.

:doh:

Ah, that's a great line of logic there..... Of course your empiracle evidence was wrong, you never claimed your statement was actually trying to support your position...

My position is that you are making gross generalizations to misportray portions of a large group of people. To do that, all I have to do is give individual cases where your gross generalizations are wrong. I have in fact stated that I'm not trying to make generalizations previously.

So you can point to where I actually made a generalization?

Never mind. I already know the answer to that question.

My contention never was that the people I was describing were the general population or represented the average situation. Just that the people and conditions you were describing didn't represent the whole situation and probably not even the majority of the cases.

[wskin44]

People are NOT getting H-1B visas through a lottery.

That's what I assumed. Everyone in the lottery is already pre-Qualified aren't they? The lottery is just to make sure that everyone that is qualified is treated fairly. No one makes the final cut just because they know someone or paid the "fee". Not that there isn't a fee, but there is a qualification process that applies to everyone. "fee" means bribe.

And then there's George Bush who was accepted into the Texas Air National Guard when several hundred guys in front of him (who also were draft candidates for duty in Viet Nam) scored better than he did on the test. Nevermind.

The reality is that immigration is what has kept our nation ahead of everyone else all of these years. We absorb the lessons of other cultures and then whip everyone else because we know what they know. How many foreigners are immigrating to China? JMS, start your own company and when those indentured servants you are complaining about become free agents, grab the best ones before they return to their own countries (not that all or even many do) and team them with your American folks and compete. Absorb the best free agents by paying them more efficiently than your competitors. Any company can pay more to each individual if they have the best people compared to their competitors. They don't have to hold down the wages of the best people in order to compensate for the mediocre performance of the rest.

Or go back to whining that the government ought to do something. Chances are, that even if it tries, it will just screw it up.

[wskin44]

Ok that's a valid point... American companies are in competition with themselves. More profits for their share holders.... I can by that, and that's certainly the motivation here.

Something that Democrats often forget when they are slamming "big business". We all own big business so stop messing with them please.

But that isn't justification for outsourcing our high tech industry. I mean can we think of an American industry which could not be exported if 200,000 cheap indentures folks came here for severl years and then returned to form the core of a competent labor force in their home country...

That is a little bothersome but read my previous post about grabbing the best and brightest before they go back. They really would rather be here.

Hell we could save the auto industry, boeing, the steel industry... We could save all of American industry following this model.... Only when we were done, we wouldn't have any Americans left with jobs.

We all become Americans eventually. There's even hope for you! :laugh:

Well I partially agree with that... I agree that they are cheaper. I agre that after years of experience here they are just as competent too. I guess we just disagree that cheaper folks earning less money are better able to share the common burden of our tax system than solid middle class Americans who once had solid middle class jobs.

Things need to be managed so that we absorb the talented of the world into our communities rather than have whole functioning communities destroyed when jobs go overseas.

Well if that's is the motivation here then hell China has more unemployed folks than all jobs in the United States. They all would do our jobs for less. Why is a third or second world guys motivation to work for less money a new and amaizing thing.

Not if we pay the best people more than they do and offer a better overall lifestyle. We can either take advantage of the reality of immigration or go to plan b: Do their laundry for them.

I would argue that the exploited employee's motivation to work for less isn't new. It isn't even important. What is important and new is #1 American corporations figuring out how to exploit this constant and historical willingness. #2 A consistant agreement across party lines by our polititians that by screwing the American middle class they can gain some short term political advantage by way of high tech billionaires contributions to their political coffers.

Maybe. But since the title of this thread related to the election, which candidate has the best chance of understanding all of this complexity and then leading with courage rather than being paid off?

but we've already agreed in this case that American high technology companies are not being squeezed by foreign competition. Rather the foreign companies and industries have been created by American companies to better exploit their domestic third and second world citizenry.

If you don't looking at the development of underdeveloped countries as potential new customers, you are lost.

No software companies have figured out that even if you are less productive and cut costs significantly, that's profitable too.

You're mssing the equation: Productivity = the $ value of production divided by the $ cost of production. You can either increase the numerator or decrease the denominator ("cut costs significantly"). Productivity is only defined as the relationship between the two. It can't be isolated.

Productivity isn't relivent. As I've said H1B visa's are not given out to the brightest and best. They are given out by lottery and thus chance.

This was already disproven. And productivity is the only thing that IS relevant.

Also we aren't taling about the auto industry in the 1980's here which found itself being outcompeted by Japan based on Japanese domestic workers disipline and hard work.

In this model we have the industry executives bringing hundreds of thousands of foreign workers here to the United States to get trained up. And then go back home bringing the jobs with them.

I suggest we keep the good ones by making it worth their while and letting the less gifted go home. By then who would know better that us which were which?

It's not about efficiency, brains, or ability... It's solely based on price point.

And I'll say it again, If an American worker stands alone against his government and companies and is forced to compete head to head with the cheapest third and second world workers solely based on price point, after those folks have come here for on the job training there isn't an industry in this country which would stand up to that unholy marrage.

Why stand alone? And once again, we have a choice of three leaders right now. Which one is the best prepared to understand all of this and put us in a position to have a fighting chance?

Funny, Bank of America currently outsources just about their entire IT department to India. They should be called the bank of New Deli.[/

I was a part of an unforgettable group of people who put over 50,000 American workers on incentive pay. Our goal was establish a pay system that was directly tied to measured performance so that the bank could pay more to the best people, attracting better people from other banks, and let the less talented (and less paid) "self select" themselves go to other institutions where they could be protected from performance pay. Companies from all over the country were coming to talk to us to learn about what we were doing. We were pushed out of the Bank when different managers took over due to mergers. It doesn't surprise me that Bank of America has issues.

[JMS]

I'm not claiming that most don't go home. I'm claiming that many don't want to go home, and some are going home that don't want to.

I know from personal experience that during the 80's and 90's I almost never encountered an H1B who didn't want to get his green card and enter the US job market.

But in 2001 the American job market for high tech workers went to crap. Also during that time most of the H1B's who I encountered no longer wanted to stay here. They wanted to get their experience and return to their own country where there was more opprotunity.

Now maybe this had to do with 911. But the article from the Boston Globe which I linked claimed 35,000 Indians returned home one summer for increased job opprotunities, increased pay, and better chances for advancement. That Is basically what I understood from my non scientific personal experience too.

Join with that their just weren't enough green cards to go around for 200,000 H1B's a year hit the green card line.

Either way it's just my observation, it's not a central theme of my discussion, however I did provide a newspaper article which bare out my observation.

You know what my study is? Every year every single availible green card is taken for these people. There is never a year where we say, 'Hey there are extra green cards to employeers.' This of course despite the fact the process is a pain and a neck to go through.

Well that might be explained from the difference between high technology and Chemistry. Maybe there is more opprotunity over here in chemisty. I don't know much about your market.

Here's another study for you. In some industries people actually need and are willing to pay foreign workers. Want to now my study on that? It is the same information. Every year employers go through of hassle of sponsoring people for green cards to the extent that every green card availible to employers is used.

Did I miss the link? what study? Where is the link on that?

In my industry folks get sponsored for Green cards too. After a year if their lucky, after a few years if their not lucky. Either way the application process for green cards takes years, and it's a great way to ensure the H1B stay's put and doesn't go home. I don't think corporations do much to be nice guys. But I don't work in your industry.

My position is that you are making gross generalizations to misportray portions of a large group of people. To do that, all I have to do is give individual cases where your gross generalizations are wrong. I have in fact stated that I'm not trying to make generalizations previously.

I am certainly making gross generalizations. When I say H1B's do not represent the best and brightest it is certainly a generalization. But aren't the advocates for H1B's guilty of doing the same thing. Don't you have to make generalizations to discuss the broad goals and achievments of the program? That is exactly what I've done. We agree.

My contention never was that the people I was describing were the general population or represented the average situation. Just that the people and conditions you were describing didn't represent the whole situation and probably not even the majority of the cases.

Well I believe I provided eight reputable studies and sources from government agencies and reputable universities which agreed that H1B developers were in fact paid less than Americans working the same job. That doesn't mean all were; it does mean most were.

The department of labor found that 19% of H1B's weren't even given the salary they were promised in their home country.

I think my representation is based on solid evidence. If you want to dispute it you'll need to find a reputable source which can refute UCLA, UC Davis, the department of Labor, and a think tank dealing with immigration visa's.

[JMS]

It's silly discussing anything with you when you behave like this. The current demand for H-1B visas exceeds the current limit.

OF coarse it does!!!!!! When they trippled the H1B visa lottery to 200,000 work visa's in 2001, 2002, and 2003 they still filled the availible visa's within days/weeks of them going on the market. And that's with the high tech job industry contracting after the Y2k farse was over, and the .COM bust in early 2000.

The reason is that each H1B represents tens of thousands of dollars worth of profit both to the hiring company, and to the company which applies for and get's granted the VISA....

There's gold in them their hills. How else can you explain that a contracting job market absorbes 200,000 or triple the H1B's withing days/weeks three years running?

The buyers are very motivated to get these guys here aren't they...

Which employer applications are reviewed for approval is determined by a lottery system because of the excess demand.

Yeah? so what are you saying... a lotery system does select the best and the brightest? :doh: The random lotery?

A computer randomly selected 65,000 petitions from among the 123,480 that had passed a preliminary check for eligibility, said Shawn Saucier, a spokesman for the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services, the agency that oversees the visas.

The lottery, conducted Thursday, brought cries of pain from technology companies and immigration lawyers around the country. They lamented the limit that Congress has imposed on the high-skilled visas, known as H-1B, and the luck-of-the-draw method to make the cut.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/14/washington/14immig.html

People are NOT getting H-1B visas through a lottery.

Thats the only way they were awarded in 2007!!

Speed is not a factor (so long as they meet the submission deadline) in a H-1B application being reviewed,

The H1B program in 2007 stopped accepting applications two days after it started accepting applications. They had more than twice the yearly quota, in two days. They only considered the folks who had already submitted applications prior to their abruptly ending the application process for the blind lottery. Fleet of foot was definitely a requirement for H1B's in 2007...

cost is not a factor in a H-1B application being reviewed. Luck only plays a part in so far as there is an excess demand and a lottery determines which applications are considered.

Ok above you say it is a lottery, then here you say it isn't a lottery. Are you wrong first off or second off? In 2003 we let in 195,000 H1B's. Filled the quota more than 10 months before the application period ended.

Last year 2007 filled the 65,000 quote in two days.. got more than 130,000 applications in those first two days of a year long application cycle.

So what is it... Were all 130,000 of these folks identically the best and the brightest?,,, Or do you believe we checked transcripts, grades, iq tests in our blind lottery for awarding the H1B VISA's.

H1B's are not the best and the brightest. They are the lucky guys who win the lottery. Before that they were the first guys taken off the top of the heap. H1B visa holders don't pass any exam to demonstrate their best and brightest.. H1b visa holders are not guaged in any meaningful way to separate the best and the brightest much less the hardest workers.

H1B's have to meat a very lax set of requirements, and even these requirements are not adheared too.

Finally I found this Gem... ( circa 2003 when our quota was 200,000 visa's )

U.S. Department of Homeland Security data shows that nearly 50 percent of all H-1B beneficiaries possess a bachelor’s degree or higher; 31 percent hold at least a master’s degree; 12 percent hold a doctorate degree; and 6 percent hold a professional degree1.

[1]Characteristics of Specialty Occupation Workers (H-1B) Fiscal Year 2003, U.S. DHS, Office of Immigration Statistics, July 2004.

http://www.competeamerica.org/resource/h1b_glance/

That means more than half of all H1B's don't even have undergraduate degree's..... Yeah... the best and the brightest!!...

[JMS]

That's what I assumed. Everyone in the lottery is already pre-Qualified aren't they?

in 2003 department of homeland security stated half of all H1B's don't even have undergraduate degrees..... How exactly do they represent the best and the brightest?

U.S. Department of Homeland Security data shows that nearly 50 percent of all H-1B beneficiaries possess a bachelor’s degree or higher; 31 percent hold at least a master’s degree; 12 percent hold a doctorate degree; and 6 percent hold a professional degree1.

http://www.competeamerica.org/resource/h1b_glance/#_ftnref1

They are no better than American programmers when they get here. They posess no better skills. It's not uncommon for these folks to have taken a weak long course in a technology which they are applying for a job in.

H1B's only advantage over American workers is they are cheap, indentured, and legally stripped of being able to test the free market to leverage wage increases.

Their only advantage and attractiveness is price point.

The lottery is just to make sure that everyone that is qualified is treated fairly. No one makes the final cut just because they know someone or paid the "fee". Not that there isn't a fee, but there is a qualification process that applies to everyone. "fee" means bribe.

I'm not claiming their a bribes in volved. I'm claiming that a blind lottery isn't a mechanism one uses to select the "best and brightest", and a blind lottery was how these folks were selected in 2007... Before that an equally blind mechanism was used to select who will recieve VISA's.... Best and brightest or most skilled is not a concern.

Half of all H1B's don't even have undergaduate degrees in 2003....

The reality is that immigration is what has kept our nation ahead of everyone else all of these years. We absorb the lessons of other cultures and then whip everyone else because we know what they know. How many foreigners are immigrating to China?

H1B isn't an immigration visa it's a temporary work visa. Most H1B's don't remain in the US because when we trippled the H1B quota in 2001, 2 and 3 we didn't tripple the already tight green card quota.

JMS, start your own company and when those indentured servants you are complaining about become free agents, grab the best ones before they return to their own countries (not that all or even many do) and team them with your American folks and compete. Absorb the best free agents by paying them more efficiently than your competitors. Any company can pay more to each individual if they have the best people compared to their competitors. They don't have to hold down the wages of the best people in order to compensate for the mediocre performance of the rest.

:doh: Price point, that's why they're hear.... that's why the US corporations want them. Once they can get a green card or citizenship they can no longer be exploited and US companies don't have any more use for them.

There is a real crisis backlog of H1B's applying for green cards. Did you hear Bill gates ask for more green cards infront of congress last week? Nope, you heard him ask for more H1B's.

After these guys are trained here, American companies want them to go home. They provide the core of the outsourcing work force. They can pay them even cheaper in India than they can pay them here...

In no way are H1B's the best and the brightest. They are the cheapest.

Or go back to whining that the government ought to do something. Chances are, that even if it tries, it will just screw it up.

The company is doing something... They are in the process of sucessfully outsourcing the entire high tech industry for short term political gains. George Will says it's the buggy whips jobs which are going over seas... George Will is a moron. These are programming jobs on the dawn of the information age. It's like outsourcing the automobile industry at the dawn of the assembly line inovation.

[JMS]

Wow. If this is correct, than a major portion of this thread is for the bottom of the bird cage. :doh:

It's not correct.

In 2007 the entire years quota for H1B's was filled in two days after they started accepting applications. At that time they had more than 130,000 applications for 65,000 slots.

Fleet of foot definitely played a role in getting your application in. ( The entire years quota went in a record two days!! )..

Also a blind lottery was used to select the candidates who recieved H1B's..

As for pre-veted candidates were the only ones considered I don't know what that means.... In 2003 the department of homeland security published the fact that more than half of all H1B's in the country didn't even have undergraduate degrees. How exactly is that pre-vetted?

U.S. Department of Homeland Security data shows that nearly 50 percent of all H-1B beneficiaries possess a bachelor’s degree or higher; 31 percent hold at least a master’s degree; 12 percent hold a doctorate degree; and 6 percent hold a professional degree1.

http://www.competeamerica.org/resource/h1b_glance/

The attractiveness of H1B's has nothing to do with abilities prior to getting here. It's all about the fact that these folks are cheaper than their American counter parts. Six years of working here is what makes them programmers, they don't arrive that way... Just like and American new graduate in Computer Science isn't a professional software developer until he has been seasoned for a few years on the job.

[33]

It's not correct.

In 2007 the entire years quota for H1B's was filled in two days after they started accepting applications. At that time they had more than 130,000 applications for 65,000 slots.

Fleet of foot definitely played a role in getting your application in. ( The entire years quota went in a record two days!! )..

Also a blind lottery was used to select the candidates who recieved H1B's..

As for pre-veted candidates were the only ones considered I don't know what that means.... In 2003 the department of homeland security published the fact that more than half of all H1B's didn't even have undergraduate degrees. How exactly is that pre-vetted?

The attractiveness of H1B's has nothing to do with abilities prior to getting here. It's all about the feact that these folks are cheaper than their American counter parts. Six years of working here is what makes them programmers, they don't arrive that way... Just like and American new graduate in Computer Science isn't a professional software developer until he has been seasoned for a few years on the job.

I could be way off, because I haven't researched any of this. But the impression I got from Corcaigh's post is that employers submit applications for jobs to be filled by H1B's and those applications were put into a lottery because there was such a high demand.

At least that was how I've read it. :whoknows:

[JMS]

In this country we don't pay the best and the brightest anymore than we pay the mediocre. Isn't there some qualification to get into the lottery?

In this country we don't select the best and the brightest in a blind lottery.

In 2004 the Department of homeland security published that fewer than 50% of all H1b's in the country in 2003 had undergraduate degrees.

The requirement is for H1B's to have at least an undergraduate degree in their field, or like relivent experience; what ever that means.

[JMS]

I could be way off, because I haven't researched any of this. But the impression I got from Corcaigh's post is that employers submit applications for jobs to be filled by H1B's and those applications were put into a lottery because there was such a high demand.

At least that was how I've read it. :whoknows:

It's different for different employment models, but the jobs aren't part of the VISA process. The largest recipiants of H1B visa's have been awared to two Indian body shop companies for the last few years. These companies get the VISA's and then try to market their guys to American companies and jobs after the VISA is awarded.

The blind lottery isn't for the jobs. It's for the folks applying for the VISA's. Since every applicant represents a profit center for the awared company; they are very eager to get more VISA's. Since every American company which lays off an American worker to hire an H1B represents a significant savings as well as future savings; American companies are eager to hire these folks who have optained visa's.

The job is independent of the VISA. However the H1B VISA as well as the worker is tied to the company which was awarded the VISA, it is not tied to a particular job.

[33]

It's different for different employment models, but the jobs aren't part of the VISA process. The majority of H1B visa's have been awared to two Indian body shop companies for the last few years. These companies get the VISA's and then try to market their guys to American companies and jobs after the VISA is awarded.

The blind lottery isn't for the jobs. It's for the folks applying for the VISA's. Since every applicant represents a profit center for the awared company; they are very eager to get more VISA's. Since every American company which lays off an American worker to hire an H1B represents a significant savings as well as future savings; American companies are eager to hire these folks who have optained visa's.

The job is independent of the VISA. However the H1B VISA as well as the worker is tied to the company which was awarded the VISA, it is not tied to a particular job.

Maybe we should be looking for congress to make it a tax increase to lay off an American for an H1B. That's the biggest problem. It's one thing to award a job to a H1B, it's another to lay of a local for a H1B.

I'm all about being open and allowing companies to keep their options open but having there be a penalty. I own a business and make sure to only hire CR nationals, since to get caught doing otherwise would be too expensive for me. That doesn't mean that I've always hired the best, hardest working, or brightest but I am supporting the locals and giving them all the benefits they are entitled to. I wouldn't mind the option of hiring an english speaking North American or European, though.

[JMS]

Maybe we should be looking for congress to make it a tax increase to lay off an American for an H1B. That's the biggest problem. It's one thing to award a job to a H1B, it's another to lay of a local for a H1B.

Well that would work, if you were ablivous to the fact that that is the only purpose the H1B program serves. It's sole purpuse is to provide a cheaper alternative to US workers.

I'm all about being open and allowing companies to keep their options open but having there be a penalty. I own a business and make sure to only hire CR nationals, since to get caught doing otherwise would be too expensive for me. That doesn't mean that I've always hired the best, hardest working, or brightest but I am supporting the locals and giving them all the benefits they are entitled to. I wouldn't mind the option of hiring an english speaking North American or European, though.

Well I don't know your business, so I don't know why you think it's an advantage to hire a North American or European. But they way you describe it is the same way it is in the United States. The H1B visa program as it applies to technology companies is an exception to the immigration rule. It's basically an attempt by both parites to get inroads into the deap pockets of the software industry billionaires...

You should have Seen dollar bill gates testemoney before congress last week. It twas a fawning festival on both sides of the isle.

[DjTj]

In this country we don't select the best and the brightest in a blind lottery.

In 2004 the Department of homeland security published that fewer than 50% of all H1b's in the country in 2003 had undergraduate degrees.

The requirement is for H1B's to have at least an undergraduate degree in their field, or like relivent experience; what ever that means.

Okay, I know you cited a link for this, but I believe the link had it wrong. If you actually go to the DHS report, it shows that 50% of H-1B's had only a bachelor's degree. 30% had a Master's, 12% a doctorate, and 5% a professional degree. Only 2% had less than a bachelor's.

http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/FY2002Charact.pdf (Table 6)

It's different for different employment models, but the jobs aren't part of the VISA process. The majority of H1B visa's have been awared to two Indian body shop companies for the last few years. These companies get the VISA's and then try to market their guys to American companies and jobs after the VISA is awarded.

I didn't really know about this loophole, but I still don't see anywhere that half the H-1B's are only going to two firms.

At this link, over 9,000 visas are going to four Indian firms, but that's only maybe 15% of the visas. It's a large number, but it's not half.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9067638&intsrc=news_ts_head

From the USCIS link above, it looks like almost 50% of the H-1B's were Indian in 2001, but that percentage dropped to 33% in 2002.

What you point out is a loophole in the law. H-1B's were designed for American companies to fill labor needs, but these Indian companies have learned how to exploit the law. I think we can fix this loophole without scrapping H-1B's entirely.

We could limit the number of H-1B's available to any firm. We could restrict H-1B's to American companies. We could deny H-1B's to consulting firms who primarily provide staff for other companies ... there are many ways to close this loophole. It's not the H-1B's themselves but the firms that are exploiting the rule.

There's nothing inherently wrong with an H-1B. There is clearly a need for it in some areas. Some Indian firms are obviously abusing it, and we should address that. Mend it, don't end it. :2cents:

[JMS]

Well, like it or not, the legal and illegal issues get tied together ... at the very least, people (and politicians) have been refusing to increase the legal quota before addressing the illegal issue.

true, but that doesn't mean folks who are critical of the governments lax enforcement of our boarders, are critical or against greencard holders.

I see your point how you are linking the two.

I agree that companies want more H-1B's but not necessarily more green cards.

The only people that want more green cards are the immigrants themselves, and they can't vote. That's really why we're in the situation that we're in right now.

Do you agree that exploitation is at the core of this duality? Companies can exploit H1B's, but not greencard holders or citizens. That's why they want H1B's cause their more profitable.

I think the solution is to issue more green cards, which is what Obama and Hillary and McCain want to do.

Obama, Hillary and McCain alll want to increase the H1B quota. I would rather give every H1B a green card when he steps off the plan than increase the H1B quota.

If H1B's had greencards and access to the free market from day one I believe the entire incentive to hire them would be vastly decreased. We might even see a valid best and brightest argument too.

I'm not critical of Obama, Hillary or Mccain's wish to increase Green cards. I'm volcanic about them increasing the H1B visa's and their misguided explaination that it keeps American jobs safe. It's totally the oposite.

[JMS]

Okay, I know you cited a link for this, but I believe the link had it wrong. If you actually go to the DHS report, it shows that 50% of H-1B's had only a bachelor's degree. 30% had a Master's, 12% a doctorate, and 5% a professional degree. Only 2% had less than a bachelor's.

http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/FY2002Charact.pdf (Table 6)

I'll have to do some research on this. My link said homeland security published the figures in 2004 for 2003. Your data is from 2002.

My link said

U.S. Department of Homeland Security data shows that nearly 50 percent of all H-1B beneficiaries possess a bachelor’s degree or higher; 31 percent hold at least a master’s degree; 12 percent hold a doctorate degree; and 6 percent hold a professional degree1.

(footnote)

[1]Characteristics of Specialty Occupation Workers (H-1B) Fiscal Year 2003, U.S. DHS, Office of Immigration Statistics, July 2004.

http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/FY2002Charact.pdf

I'll look again for the specific study... I find your post creditble though and should stand as a better source If I can't find the specific 2004 source cited.

I didn't really know about this loophole, but I still don't see anywhere that half the H-1B's are only going to two firms.

I mispoke... the majority of H1B's don't go to two indian outsourincing companies. The largest awardee's of H1B's VISA's are two indian outsourcing companies, but they don't have a majority.

What you point out is a loophole in the law. H-1B's were designed for American companies to fill labor needs, but these Indian companies have learned how to exploit the law. I think we can fix this loophole without scrapping H-1B's entirely.

I disagree. H1B's have always been used by body shops as intermidiaries to American firms. It's working as designed.

It's not the H-1B's themselves but the firms that are exploiting the rule.

I think H1B visa holders are themselves exploited by the VISA. Why should any worker be tied to his job via his immigration status and denied the right to freely change jobs. Why should he have to negotiate his salary before he even comes here and has any experience with the going wage.

If their is really a shortage of technology workers and these folks are needed beyond the fact that they are cheap and expliotable; why not just give them green cards for a number of years? Why not recruite them as something more permenent than a temporary work VISA.

If you are in the software industry Im sure you will agree that any software worker is more valuable after he's worked a number of years than when he's just out of school.

There's nothing inherently wrong with an H-1B. There is clearly a need for it in some areas. Some Indian firms are obviously abusing it, and we should address that. Mend it, don't end it. :2cents:

End it. It's a 21st century indentured servant program designed to screw Americans on the false claims of a worker shortage. It creates a legal underclass of worker to be exploited by American companies which is suppressing wages and directly leads to outsourcing more jobs to foreign countries.

[DjTj]

true, but that doesn't mean folks who are critical of the governments lax enforcement of our boarders, are critical or against greencard holders.

I see your point how you are linking the two.

I also think there is an organized labor opposition to raising green card quotas ... they haven't increased since 1990, and I guess I don't really know who is opposing it, but somewhere between general anti-immigration forces and probably labor unions, it has been very hard to increase those quotas.

I think organized labor is more willing to accept "temporary workers," which is probably a mistake, but in the midst of the immigration debate, it has become obvious that the political support for more temporary workers is stronger than it is for more green cards.

Do you agree that exploitation is at the core of this duality? Companies can exploit H1B's, but not greencard holders or citizens. That's why they want H1B's cause their more profitable.

Exploitation is definitely a part of it, and it is certainly easier for employers to control H-visa holders than green card holders.

Obama, Hillary and McCain alll want to increase the H1B quota. I would rather give every H1B a green card when he steps off the plan than increase the H1B quota.

If H1B's had greencards and access to the free market from day one I believe the entire incentive to hire them would be vastly decreased. We might even see a valid best and brightest argument too.

I think you're right. If it's true that, as PeterMP and alexey and Corcaigh say, that the vast majority of H-1B holders want to stay in the United States, then we might as well give them green cards.

I think H1B visa holders are themselves exploited by the VISA. Why should any worker be tied to his job via his immigration status and denied the right to freely change jobs. Why should he have to negotiate his salary before he even comes here and has any experience with the going wage.

Why aren't F visa holders allowed to work in summer internships? Why do we need K visas for fiances and V visas for spouses? The immigration system is arcane and complex for arbitrary reasons ... often because different groups have very different interests with regard to immigrants.

End it. It's a 21st century indentured servant program designed to screw Americans on the false claims of a worker shortage. It creates a legal underclass of worker to be exploited by American companies which is suppressing wages and directly leads to outsourcing more jobs to foreign countries.

There are still situations where a temporary worker visa would be useful. It may be appropriate for people who may be traveling back and forth a lot, people who want to be able to work while waiting for their green card to process, or those who intend to stay in the United States for only a few years. Not long ago, the United States gave green cards to almost everyone and H visas really were only for people who were waiting, but I think the forces of big business seeking to exploit workers combined with general anti-immigration sentiment (a curious marriage made in the Republican Party during the Reagan administration) have given us this increasing assortment of temporary visas.

I'm not critical of Obama, Hillary or Mccain's wish to increase Green cards. I'm volcanic about them increasing the H1B visa's and their misguided explaination that it keeps American jobs safe. It's totally the oposite.

You have to really understand what's happening here. I don't really know that either Obama, Hillary, or McCain really have a strong opinion on H-1B's ... actually, I doubt they have spent much time thinking about it at all.

I am sure they have spent their share of time schmoozing with executives at Microsoft or other big companies that have been lobbying for higher H-1B quotas. They are only hearing one side of the story, and they are only reciting their talking points ... the underemployed software engineer lobby is not a strong one, and you have actually raised a lot of things in this thread that I did not know about.

Immigration is not going to be a big issue in this election, so your best bet will probably not be to target Presidential candidates ... Support Chuck Grassley or Dick Durbin or Jim Webb when they speak up on this issue ... find sympathetic candidates running for Congress in Silicon Valley or Seattle or Northern Virginia. A President is not going to make a difference on this issue in 2008, but a few Congressmen may be all you need.

[JMS]

I also think there is an organized labor opposition to raising green card quotas ... they haven't increased since 1990, and I guess I don't really know who is opposing it, but somewhere between general anti-immigration forces and probably labor unions, it has been very hard to increase those quotas.

I think organized labor is more willing to accept "temporary workers," which is probably a mistake, but in the midst of the immigration debate, it has become obvious that the political support for more temporary workers is stronger than it is for more green cards.

I think it's the opposite. I think their is huge money in exploiting illegals by American corporations so they don't want boarder control, andy any move which exludes boarder control they know means more illegals coming here not fewer.. Just like their is huge money to be made in exploiting H1B's.

I think the current push back away from amnesty for illegals has to do with three things.

(1) folks don't want to reward immigrants who's first act when they arrived here was to break our laws.

(2) When Regan gave an amnesty in 1980's it didn't help the situation it caused a worse problem as folks came here waiting for the next amnesty

(3) Citizens don't believe the government when they say they will get control of our boarders and that is a requirement to any illegal immigrate deal.

I don't think any of it applies to H1B's.

You have to really understand what's happening here. I don't really know that either Obama, Hillary, or McCain really have a strong opinion on H-1B's ... actually, I doubt they have spent much time thinking about it at all.

I think it's further along than that. Bill Gates appeared before congress last week and the senate passed a bill increasing H1B's VISA's almost a year ago it's just waiting for the congress to pass a matching bill.

Obama has said he's infavor of a "temporary" increase in h1b visas.... We just triplled them four three years four years ago and it just about wrecked us. I don't know what he means by temporary.

Immigration is not going to be a big issue in this election, so your best bet will probably not be to target Presidential candidates ... Support Chuck Grassley or Dick Durbin or Jim Webb when they speak up on this issue ... find sympathetic candidates running for Congress in Silicon Valley or Seattle or Northern Virginia. A President is not going to make a difference on this issue, but a few Congressmen may be all you need.

I disagree with you on that... The only defense is the Presidential veto and public outcry.

Here are some specific ideas I would apply to the H1b program.

• Retain the current 65,000 cap on regular H-1B visas. With the majority of applications for H1-B computer programmers at salaries below the prevailing wage, the cap is the only real safeguard in the H-1B system.
  
• Limit the number of H-1B visas that an employer can obtain each year based on the number of U.S. employees the company has.
  
• Employers should be required to use a standard wage source produced by the federal government when making prevailing wage claims for LCAs. Allowing employers to pick from nearly any wage source is not a valid measure of the prevailing wage.
  
• Employers should be required to pay H-1B workers at a level higher than the mean wage, such as the 75th percentile, rather than at the prevailing wage, to prevent widespread use of H-1B workers from depressing U.S. salary levels. Lessening the H-1B salary differential may reduce pressure on the visa quota, as employers will use the program only for true industry needs and for the most highly-skilled workers, rather than the cheapest workers.
  
• In order to better monitor the H-1B program, employers should be required to enter a Standard Occupation Code (SOC) for each employee on the application. Most employers are looking this information up already in order to get OES prevailing wages. It would require little effort for employers to put this information on the LCA.
  
• In order to better monitor the H-1B program, USCIS should make wage and employer information available on H-1B visas actually issued. Researchers now must rely on Labor Department data from the LCA, which may or may not result in an actual visa issuance.
  

[33]

Well that would work, if you were ablivous to the fact that that is the only purpose the H1B program serves. It's sole purpuse is to provide a cheaper alternative to US workers.

I'm aware, but I'm saying it's sometimes easier to up the ante financially rather than get the politicians to drop the entire system. It's possible there is also a dollar amount that could be taxed that would still make it financially feasible for companies to hire H1B's.

Admittedly, I don't know much about this subject, but solutions on Capital Hill don't tend to be black and white in terms of re-sign this bill, drop this bill. You gotta squeak something into the bill to make the difference.

[PeterMP]

in 2003 department of homeland security stated half of all H1B's don't even have undergraduate degrees..... How exactly do they represent the best and the brightest?

I'd have to look at a study in detail, but generally a college degree from India is not the same as here. Because of reduced general requirements they get essentially the equivalent of a BS in three years. The US only officially recognizes a 4 year degree program as a college degree.

Most Indians that come here in graduate school have what is essentially a MS in their topic of study and come in at the same stage as a normal BS/BA from the US. They can't come in to a grad program after their 3 year college degree so they need an extra year of schooling. Getting the MS only adds one more year so they go ahead and get that so they have 5 years of very technical experience as compared to 4 of pretty non-technical experience for the average American.

It would not surprise me if Home Land Security is saying people with these 3 year degrees don't have a college degree.

[wskin44]

[quote name='JMS

The company is doing something... They are in the process of sucessfully outsourcing the entire high tech industry for short term political gains. George Will says it's the buggy whips jobs which are going over seas... George Will is a moron. These are programming jobs on the dawn of the information age. It's like outsourcing the automobile industry at the dawn of the assembly line inovation.

Actually in my own mental musings, without knowing about the existence H1B's, I've thought that at least some of the 12M undocumented folks currently living/working in this country could be offered some kind deal where they work in low paying jobs that are not in demand by Americans. They would be paid less than what an American worker would get. Some of the difference would be deducted from their pay check to cover their fines for coming to this country without documentation. Some of the difference would go to the employer. There would be time limits and then the person could move to the next stage of becoming a citizen. Some of the same issues would arrise I suppose, but not quite the same as with high tech jobs.

Most Republicans are blinded by certain things which tends to enhance their moron image. As smart as George Will is, he's no exception. Since so many developing nations have huge construction projects going on which fuels their incredible growth, there is a huge demand for engineers. In a free market world, which is an integral part of U.S. policy, the demand will be met one way or another. It is my understanding that in the short term there are a lot of engineering jobs overseas, either working for/through American companies or otherwise. Those jobs will probably decline in number after we train their engineers but there certainly a lot of American engineers who are making good money now working overseas.

The government may be able to make some adjustments to the H1B program but the realities of the market are what they are. For hundreds of years while Europe and the U.S. sailed around the world trading, colonizing and fighting, we implicitely and explicetely held out the promise to less developed peoples that they could advance themselves if they cooperated with us. Right now the less developed regions of the world are going through a period of accelerated growth. It's part of the process that some of these people are going to assume some market share in areas where the more developed countries dominated. The United States has been trying to lift up the rest of the world. As the world lifts itself there will be other opportunities and markets for us. The challenge is for us to understand, recognize and find a way to adapt and compete. Usually when we focus on competing, Americans do quite well. I wouldn't expect the government to be much help.

[jbooma]

Bottom line is these folks come over here, work for several years; and then return to their native country with their job. The Indian labor minister calls it the outsourcing visa.

Why does every one of our leading Presidential candidates support this travesty?

Yet you forget when they get back that they will work with US companies so we can start bringing those people into our consumer base :doh: :doh:

America needs to wake up, outsourcing is the way of future if we refuse to do it we will be left behind. The reason why we need these people to work here because americans care more about Brittney Spears then they do Bill Gates. We do not apply ourselves in the fields of science and mathmatics, kids want to be the next American Idol not the next brilliant NASA scientest, which is what we need.