Looks like we just needed a QB change...

[Redsknz4life]

my post from another thread..

We did'nt lose 7 games because of qb play, period.

GB?

NYG?

BILLS?

PHILLY?

We led in all 4 games Moss and droped passes cost us GB. And the other 3 we held nice leads but the defense crapped them away.

NE?

I'll give you Dallas and TB but he threw for over 300 yards each game, and the cowboy game he played outstanding its not his fault nobody covered TO..The TB game CP and Moss got us in a hole quick 19-0 and he still almost brung us back.

Lets be honest here we are playing better has a team. Defense has stepped up,running game,playaction is working.

We are holding leads now thats the biggest difference to me.

TC has played great and should finish this unless he stinks it up in the playoffs. But lets be honest he has'nt dealt with the injuries,drops and porious defense that JC did.

This whole team deserves credit not just TC and its nice to see healthy wr's getting seperation.

We have our QB of the future let him get healthy and we have a bright future. Ride TC till it ends this year. Thier is no need for 95% of the people on this board to poop on JC to promote TC. Just support both and be glad were winning and enjoy the ride.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you!

Everybody is just playing better now. Early in the season we had problems with the Defense (you can't let 1 person score on you 4 times...without making adjustments), CP wasn't running as hard and overall the O-line wasn't blocking as well (For the run or pass)

Majority of the people on this board hops on whatever is hot. Remember those that said Moss was a fluke, CP should be traded, the animosity towards Springs because he wasn't practicing.

You guys kill me.....

[MikeBass]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you!

Everybody is just playing better now. Early in the season we had problems with the Defense (you can't let 1 person score on you 4 times...without making adjustments), CP wasn't running as hard and overall the O-line wasn't blocking as well (For the run or pass)

Majority of the people on this board hops on whatever is hot. Remember those that said Moss was a fluke, CP should be traded, the animosity towards Springs because he wasn't practicing.

You guys kill me.....

Is it jumping on what's hot or giving credit where credit's due?

I think that Campbell can be a really good QB someday but as fansincesonnyJ is suggesting he has not proven anything just yet. Everyone knew that he had a big arm coming out of college but "can he win in the NFL?" is what he needs to prove. I think that we all have our fingers crossed and some are trying to make excuses to why we have a losing record with him at the helm. I do not think that any other QB besides the one whom some have deemed their saviour would get that many benefits of doubts. We have criticized young QB's on this board, namely Eli Manning, that has proven much more than Campbell has proven and has led his team to the playoffs.

The bottom line is Campbell should not be beyond reproach and will be under scrutiny until he proves himself to be a winner.

[bobzmuda]

The bottom line is Campbell should not be beyond reproach and will be under scrutiny until he proves himself to be a winner.

I don't know if anyone is beyond reproach or not subject to scrutiny. There were folks here calling for Joe Gibbs' head for goodness' sake. And I know there was much criticism of Brett Favre before this season as well.

It's just the nature of the game that everyone associated with it is under constant scrutiny to show "what have you done for me lately and what are you about to for me next".

It's unclear to me what percentage of the credit for these past 4 games goes to Collins or if Campbell could have achieved the same results. What is clear to me is that there is no sense in shaking up a good thing and making a QB change for the rest of the season.

[redskins55]

We didnt need a change of QB we got what we needed...

better defense and a change of second half philosophy.....

Why people want to pretend we didnt lose 5 leads this year is beyond me...

sometimes we had double digit leads at that...

look at these numbers and tell me there isnt a change in philosophy..

When ahead: Comp- ATT's

Jason Campbell: 71-119 2 int's 2 fumbles lost (12 games)

Todd Collins : 56-81 0 int's 1 fumble lost (4 games )

Thats 9 passes when ahead per game for JC

vs

20 passes per game when ahead for TC

We have had leads in the first and second half and campbell has completed 60% of his passes and thrown only 2 picks and had 2 fumbles lost in 12 games......

so him turning it over is not the reason we were losing...its the lack of aggresive play calling...

A 2 to 1 passing while ahead advantage with Todd clearly shows that...

If you dont see that then your TC blinders are waaaaaaaay too thick.....

:notworthy

Great Post!

[MikeBass]

I don't know if anyone is beyond reproach or not subject to scrutiny. There were folks here calling for Joe Gibbs' head for goodness' sake. And I know there was much criticism of Brett Favre before this season as well.

It's just the nature of the game that everyone associated with it is under constant scrutiny to show "what have you done for me lately and what are you about to for me next".

It's unclear to me what percentage of the credit for these past 4 games goes to Collins or if Campbell could have achieved the same results. What is clear to me is that there is no sense in shaking up a good thing and making a QB change for the rest of the season.

This is true, it is unknown what Campbell would have done in these past 4 games but it a known fact that we did win the games with Collins...how much of the credit to dole out to any individual is unclear as you stated but I am sure that his 106 passer rating and 6 TDs did not hurt.

I think that Campbell will be the starter come next season, as well he should be, but I hope that he has learned a lot from watching Collins run this offense and know now that playing QB in the NFL includes much more than displaying a rocket arm.

[skinfan2k]

From Santana Moss in the Post today

"With Todd that's to be expected because he knows the [offense] well," Moss said, "and the coaches don't have to second-guess him, saying that he's not going to make one of those decisions that [they] don't want him to make. I think when you have a young guy like Jason throwing the ball, we know he's going to be great, but at times you try to say, 'Let's make sure we don't put him in situations where we hurt him because it's too soon where we told him to do something that he wasn't ready for.' "

[mistertim]

Is it jumping on what's hot or giving credit where credit's due?

I think that Campbell can be a really good QB someday but as fansincesonnyJ is suggesting he has not proven anything just yet. Everyone knew that he had a big arm coming out of college but "can he win in the NFL?" is what he needs to prove. I think that we all have our fingers crossed and some are trying to make excuses to why we have a losing record with him at the helm. I do not think that any other QB besides the one whom some have deemed their saviour would get that many benefits of doubts. We have criticized young QB's on this board, namely Eli Manning, that has proven much more than Campbell has proven and has led his team to the playoffs.

The bottom line is Campbell should not be beyond reproach and will be under scrutiny until he proves himself to be a winner.

I don't think people are saying Campbell is beyond reproach; nobody is beyond scrutiny. The main problem that I see is the black and white thinking where some people are talking about TC as though he is going out there and single handedly winning games for us without much help from the rest of the team but if we lost a game with JC it was single handedly because of him.

Has JC made costly mistakes? Obviously. But to completely point the blame at him for all those losses is ridiculous considering that we KNOW the playcalling was different, we KNOW our defense was less than great (or just downright horrid vs Dallas) and we KNOW that turnovers by MANY players cost us; not just Campbell. But as I said, he made costly mistakes and I'm not denying that. However, he also almost led us back in close games but made very poor decisions in the end which is not exactly unheard of in a young QB, especially when the entire game is thrust on his shoulders after we squander a lead.

Has Collins played well? Yes he has. He has played smart and not turned the ball over but once in 3 1/2 games. He generally scans the field well and makes accurate throws that are well timed. At the same time he knows this offense backwards and forwards and has benefitted from a defense that is playing completely lights out and getting turnovers, an O line that is playing well, a Clinton Portis who is running like a madman, and a much more aggressive gameplan that doesn't go into a shell in the 2nd half. Again, he is playing well and I am impressed with how he is doing, but to make it sound like he is the only factor in our wins is a little silly.

Also...is Eli really a great comparison? The guy has had 3 1/2 full years of starting experience and has yet to get even very close to a comp % of 60 and has shown that he is inconsistent to say the least. Yes they have gone to the playoffs but I think some of that is DESPITE him, not because of him. He has had tons of talent around him. For 2 1/2 years he had Tiki. He has had Plax, Toomer, Shockey, etc. My main point is you're comparing a guy with 3 1/2 years of actual starting experience with a guy with a little over 1 years worth.

[bobzmuda]

This is true, it is unknown what Campbell would have done in these past 4 games but it a known fact that we did win the games with Collins...how much of the credit to dole out to any individual is unclear as you stated but I am sure that his 106 passer rating and 6 TDs did not hurt.

I think that Campbell will be the starter come next season, as well he should be, but I hope that he has learned a lot from watching Collins run this offense and know now that playing QB in the NFL includes much more than displaying a rocket arm.

Assuming Collins re-signs, I don't know if I would hand the starting position to Campbell. I could also image a pre-requisite to Collins re-signing would be that he would be assured the starting gig would be an open competition.

This team has flourished under Collins and as such I think he deserves at least a shot to start next season as well. I would hope that the coaches would call the same type of game for Campbell that they do for Collins, by not limiting the play selection as they have this year for Campbell. We need to get a true comparison of the QBs under as similar circumstances as possible to decide who gets the starting nod.

[MikeBass]

Also...is Eli really a great comparison? The guy has had 3 1/2 full years of starting experience and has yet to get even very close to a comp % of 60 and has shown that he is inconsistent to say the least. Yes they have gone to the playoffs but I think some of that is DESPITE him, not because of him. He has had tons of talent around him. For 2 1/2 years he had Tiki. He has had Plax, Toomer, Shockey, etc. My main point is you're comparing a guy with 3 1/2 years of actual starting experience with a guy with a little over 1 years worth.

The Redskins talent on offense compares favorably to the Giants talent so that is not a good point. Sometimes it takes a QB who knows how to get the best out of who's surrounding him. I think that Portis is running well because we have a reliable passing game now and receivers now know that they can complete their patterns and get hit with a timely pass with touch. Each phase is benefitting from the other on offense and it is good to see.

As far as Eli playing more, exactly how much time should we give Campbell?...just curious because I hear this argument a lot.

[roger waters]

my post from another thread..

We did'nt lose 7 games because of qb play, period.

GB?

NYG?

BILLS?

PHILLY?

We led in all 4 games Moss and droped passes cost us GB. And the other 3 we held nice leads but the defense crapped them away.

NE?

I'll give you Dallas and TB but he threw for over 300 yards each game, and the cowboy game he played outstanding its not his fault nobody covered TO..The TB game CP and Moss got us in a hole quick 19-0 and he still almost brung us back.

Lets be honest here we are playing better has a team. Defense has stepped up,running game,playaction is working.

We are holding leads now thats the biggest difference to me.

TC has played great and should finish this unless he stinks it up in the playoffs. But lets be honest he has'nt dealt with the injuries,drops and porious defense that JC did.

This whole team deserves credit not just TC and its nice to see healthy wr's getting seperation.

We have our QB of the future let him get healthy and we have a bright future. Ride TC till it ends this year. Thier is no need for 95% of the people on this board to poop on JC to promote TC. Just support both and be glad were winning and enjoy the ride.

I concur. Todd has done great and I am glad and want him for the whole playoff run but Jason learned alot this year and will learn from watching Todd. We have a bright future.

[bobzmuda]

As far as Eli playing more, exactly how much time should we give Campbell?...just curious because I hear this argument a lot.

Time for what? To decide whether to cut him, trade him, re-sign him?

I don't see why you don't give him the benefit of developing over the length of his contract (through the 2009 season) and making a decision at its completion, or shortly before its completion.

With Collins playing as well as he has, and assuming he re-signs, there's no rush to make some sort of final determination on Campbell until that time comes.

I just don't see the need to rush to judge, when there's really nothing to be done about it until the end of the 2008 season at the earliest.

[Guest sith lord]

Anyone who can still say that JC is as good as TC is right now, is just fooling themselves. There's absolutely no comparison, TC is the better QB. JC is nothing more than a turnover waiting to happen, while TC makes plays by hitting guys in stride running into the endzone.

TC=4-0

JC=5-7

"DO THE MATH"

[MikeBass]

Time for what? To decide whether to cut him, trade him, re-sign him?

I don't see why you don't give him the benefit of developing over the length of his contract (through the 2009 season) and making a decision at its completion, or shortly before its completion.

With Collins playing as well as he has, and assuming he re-signs, there's no rush to make some sort of final determination on Campbell until that time comes.

I just don't see the need to rush to judge, when there's really nothing to be done about it until the end of the 2008 season at the earliest.

Time to stop saying that he is just a baby...I would love to see Campbell be one of the best QB's that ever wore burgandy and gold but we can't keep giving the same excuse. We try to protect him but giving that excuse does not make him look good at all.

If he is the starter he needs to produce... no excuses!!! We have a very good team not a developing one and he HAS to get with the program next season if he is the starter.

We can't keep breast feeding him.

[Guest sith lord]

I was thinking the same thing. Actually I think that quite a few people here can't wait to see him fail so that "I told ya so" can be written when everybody should be happy that the entire team is playing like it is and hope that it continues.

I'll just repeat what I said in another thread, "Some people would rather lose with their guy, than win with someone else." Sad, but true.

[bobzmuda]

Time to stop saying that he is just a baby...I would love to see Campbell be one of the best QB's that ever wore burgandy and gold but we can't keep giving the same excuse. We try to protect him but giving that excuse does not make him look good at all.

Unless you think his development has been so slow as to warrant trading or cutting him, there's no need to make any kind of declaration or decision. Everyone here could say he's "just a baby" but that doesn't change anything on the field. Skins should try to re-sign Collins, let them compete for the starting job in 2008, and at the end of 2008 make the decision to re-sign or trade Campbell before his contract runs out at the end of the 2009 season.

If he is the starter he needs to produce... no excuses!!! We have a very good team not a developing one and he HAS to get with the program next season if he is the starter.

We can't keep breast feeding him.

Hopefully Collins re-signs and they compete with the best pre-season QB getting the nod. If Collins goes elsewhere, however, you can be frustrated all you want, it is all but certain you're not going to find a better QB in FA or the draft. Your best bet would be to just go with it and to the extent you're mad, you can be mad at the front office for not getting Collins re-signed.

I'll just repeat what I said in another thread, "Some people would rather lose with their guy, than win with someone else." Sad, but true.

That's ridiculous. I haven't run across any people here bemoaning the fact that the team is winning with Collins playing a significant role in the winning instead of Campbell. I have seen folks defend Campbell as being a significant part of the future of this franchise, but I don't see how you could confuse the two.

[mistertim]

Time to stop saying that he is just a baby...I would love to see Campbell be one of the best QB's that ever wore burgandy and gold but we can't keep giving the same excuse. We try to protect him but giving that excuse does not make him look good at all.

If he is the starter he needs to produce... no excuses!!! We have a very good team not a developing one and he HAS to get with the program next season if he is the starter.

We can't keep breast feeding him.

So then how long would YOU give him before you said "ok, time to move on"? Just this year? Part of next year? All of next year? And what do we do if someone decides to pull the plug on him if they think he isn't progressing fast enough? Collins isn't going to be around for much longer. Do we trade up to get a high 1st round QB and start over? Personally I'd rather give Campbell at least next year to show improvement before I even think about trying for our next "franchise QB" and possibly having to give up a bunch to do it and in the process setting us back at least another couple of years. Sure, maybe draft a guy with a 4th or 5th this year and see how he does.

[ttr77]

So then how long would YOU give him before you said "ok, time to move on"? Just this year? Part of next year? All of next year? And what do we do if someone decides to pull the plug on him if they think he isn't progressing fast enough? Collins isn't going to be around for much longer. Do we trade up to get a high 1st round QB and start over? Personally I'd rather give Campbell at least next year to show improvement before I even think about trying for our next "franchise QB" and possibly having to give up a bunch to do it and in the process setting us back at least another couple of years. Sure, maybe draft a guy with a 4th or 5th this year and see how he does.

I would think that is he doesn't make a valuable contribution to the team by the end of '08, it's time to move in a different direction.

[Guest sith lord]

That's ridiculous. I haven't run across any people here bemoaning the fact that the team is winning with Collins playing a significant role in the winning instead of Campbell. I have seen folks defend Campbell as being a significant part of the future of this franchise, but I don't see how you could confuse the two.

I've been in a few and I've witnessed a few TC vs JC arguments and I've picked up the vibe that there's a lot of JC supporters that can't wait for TC to have a bad game. I hope it doesn't happen, but come back if TC have a bad game this Saturday and see for yourself.

[fansince62]

I'll just repeat what I said in another thread, "Some people would rather lose with their guy, than win with someone else." Sad, but true.

soooo...let's imagine the Skins get to the SB and then lose...big...to the Past. can we count on you to say the same about Collins? Sparing us the "he got us here" tripe since winning is all that matters?

[ttr77]

I've been in a few and I've witnessed a few TC vs JC arguments and I've picked up the vibe that there's a lot of JC supporters that can't wait for TC to have a bad game. I hope it doesn't happen, but come back if TC have a bad game this Saturday and see for yourself.

My guess is that this board will be full of "I told you so" threads.

[PCS]

Looks like the Redskins needed some confidence. Collins, like the rest of the team, has it now. I'm not sure one leads to the other, but this team has confidence in each other and what they can do. Though I will say Collins has helped with that.

[bobzmuda]

My guess is that this board will be full of "I told you so" threads.

Heh. Like that doesn't happen every Monday, regardless of the outcome.

[ttr77]

Heh. Like that doesn't happen every Monday, regardless of the outcome.

True.

And don't forget I predicted it

[fansince62]

My guess is that this board will be full of "I told you so" threads.

and why not?

the TC debate has been one dimensional and excessive...while trashing a Skins player in the process!

[MikeBass]

So then how long would YOU give him before you said "ok, time to move on"? Just this year? Part of next year? All of next year? And what do we do if someone decides to pull the plug on him if they think he isn't progressing fast enough? Collins isn't going to be around for much longer. Do we trade up to get a high 1st round QB and start over? Personally I'd rather give Campbell at least next year to show improvement before I even think about trying for our next "franchise QB" and possibly having to give up a bunch to do it and in the process setting us back at least another couple of years. Sure, maybe draft a guy with a 4th or 5th this year and see how he does.

I happen to think that Campbell will be alright next season it is the excuse that we keep coming up with of " he has played only ____ games" that gets to me...that sounds very belittling to the guy....he has been a pro long enough and should be very capable of leading his team to playoffs and Superbowls by now. If the team worstens with him at QB next season we should think about moving in another direction. We are in it to win it and should not be taking backward steps after getting to where we are now.

As for Collins, there should not be a debate, right now, between his and Campbells' abilities. Collins came off the bench and has given us well more than what we expected and THAT is what we should be celebrating going into this week's playoffs and hoping his great play continues. I am sure that Campbell is giving Collins all the support that he can give him and if the situation reverses itself next season, I am sure that Collins will do the same for Campbell.