Looks like we just needed a QB change...

[kingfish50]

How was his play horrible in the Chicago game?

He was 10 for 16 and 100 yds. with no interceptions and no fumbles before he was injured.

2nd drive he completed an 8 yd pass. Portis ran twice for 0 yds.

3rd drive he led the team from the Wash 38 to the Bears 29 and completed an 11 yd pass and a 12 yd pass to Cooley. JC missed one pass that drive. Suisham missed the field goal.

4th drive he led the team from the Wash. 26 to the Bears 19. The two plays that stopped the drive were a 2 yd. Portis run and a pass to Portis that loss 4 yds. JC completed passes to ARE for 22 yds, CP for 11 yds. and CC for 23 yds. Again, Suisham missed the field goal.

JC has played poorly at times but the Chicago game was NOT one of them.

Typical JC. Moves the ball between the 20's but can't score in the red zone.

You only quoted a small part of my quote. Can you answer the rest of what I wrote?

[fansince62]

Actually, it's year 4 next year for JC. This year was year 3 for JC.

But have no fear, people will trot out excuses for him next year about him "basically still being a rookie."

He's the only player I've seen who gets a half dozen years before we are finally able to judge him. After all, it take at least 6 years for Jason.... erm, I mean "everyone" (as I've been told)... to learn Saunders oh-so-complicated offense.

So really, I guess he will be "still basically a rookie" until year 7. Then we can judge him the next season, I hope.

so many Redskins haters!

how sad.....

[FanSinceSonnyJ]

banal.

TC doesn't step up twice in a row and toss 50-60 yard passes to win the game as Brady did. you just don't get it...he has weaknesses (aside from the fumbles and INTs he has dodged and most ignore) that will catch up with him over the long haul.

Actually you don't get it pal. We don't need Tom Brady or some guy throwing perfect strikes for 50-60 yards. They are like finding needle in a haystack. We do need a QB who reads the field quickly, utilizes all receivers, quickly releases the ball and calmly leads the team down the field without errant throws and bonehead intercetptions at crunch time.

Sounds like you just can't wait for TC to fail. Unbelievable

[kingfish50]

Actually you don't get it pal. We don't need Tom Brady or some guy throwing perfect strikes for 50-60 yards. They are like finding needle in a haystack. We do need a QB who reads the field quickly, utilizes all receivers, quickly releases the ball and calmly leads the team down the field without errant throws and bonehead intercetptions at crunch time.

Sounds like you just can't wait for TC to fail. Unbelievable

Bingo! Exactly what you said. We don't need a Joe Montana, just a QB that does what you just stated. If he keeps playing at this level, I can see us going all the way. Now you can't say the same if JC was still playing as the season would have ended Sunday evening. Simple as that.

[MikeBass]

Sounds like you just can't wait for TC to fail. Unbelievable

I was thinking the same thing. Actually I think that quite a few people here can't wait to see him fail so that "I told ya so" can be written when everybody should be happy that the entire team is playing like it is and hope that it continues.

[RocketCitySkins]

Typical JC. Moves the ball between the 20's but can't score in the red zone.

You only quoted a small part of my quote. Can you answer the rest of what I wrote?

I still don't see where the two Portis touches that killed one drive were JC's fault but the other problems you mention, to me, are timing issues. Saunders was not the OC when Jason was drafted and, personally, I'm taking a wait and see attitude towards next year as to if I think JC is the right qb for Saunders system. JC's long wind-up on his throws, although this has improved since Auburn and just a general hesitant, tenative play are taking too much time. I'm hoping the long reads can be improved with more work in the off-season.

[fansince62]

Actually you don't get it pal. We don't need Tom Brady or some guy throwing perfect strikes for 50-60 yards. They are like finding needle in a haystack. We do need a QB who reads the field quickly, utilizes all receivers, quickly releases the ball and calmly leads the team down the field without errant throws and bonehead intercetptions at crunch time.

Sounds like you just can't wait for TC to fail. Unbelievable

1) I'm not your pal.

2) You seem to suffer from an inattention to deatil: the point being made is that Collins is a creature of a system. He has evident weaknesses (read athletic limitation) that can be exploited by simply moving him out of the containing bounds of the system. The true winners win precisely because they can stretch themselves beyond the confines of a system when it counts and/or is needed....ala Brady....or Manning.....

as for the "bonehead INTs"...in your relentless pursuit of spin...you neglect context: JC was bringing the team back..often with little time...due to mistakes others had made. TC hasn't been placed in that situation...in large part cuz the defense is carrying this team.

I want a complete QB....not some octogenarian who needs eveyone else to function at 110% in order to do well. JC has the potentail to become a complete QB across the board. TC needs a system - his limitations are obvious.

as for the "potential" retort...spare me. only those not blessed with common sense at birth feel that 1 season in inactive status holding a clipboard, one season of 5 games in a mop-up roll, and 12 games as the full time starter make for a complete trial. especially since there was unequivocal progress. it's is mindnumbing how myopic some of the arguments put forth have been.

TC has the hot hand....you don't risk JC's future anyway (draw what inferences you want from that...:-)....).....so you play TC on this run. a run that is quite unique: a career back-up playing flawlessly; a defense dominating games and placing the offense in position to succeed; no speacial teams lapses (save for a dropped snap on a fieldgoal); a lot of luck (fumbles, ints, referee calls); a mudered player whose memory inspires almost mystical confidence and effort in the team overall..and certain jkey players specifically. If you all can't see the wider picture here...and what is really going on...then I'm sorry for ya. you're missing the real drama! the real storyline.

I find it deplorably depressing that the demand is play TC next season...rather than....raise the bar on JC so that the timing part of the game is down. You get TC + mobility + a deep ball with JC...in addition to not fouling up your drafts and roster management for years to come.

[kingfish50]

I still don't see where the two Portis touches that killed one drive were JC's fault but the other problems you mention, to me, are timing issues. Saunders was not the OC when Jason was drafted and, personally, I'm taking a wait and see attitude towards next year as to if I think JC is the right qb for Saunders system. JC's long wind-up on his throws, although this has improved since Auburn and just a general hesitant, tenative play are taking too much time. I'm hoping the long reads can be improved with more work in the off-season.

I don't disagree with you and it's like I said, he needs some major improvements in his timing and his passes. It's not something I want to see him/them trying to fix during the regular season and jeopardise any chance of making the playoffs again next year. That's why I hope he can get it done during this off season.

[the1toask]

What a crock ! The only thing that has changed in the last 4 weeks is the QB! Its not hard to figure out that JC was the problem. The offense is scoring more, holding onto the ball longer and turning it over less. Result: Defense more rested and more wins ! PERIOD !

my post from another thread..

We did'nt lose 7 games because of qb play, period.

GB?

NYG?

BILLS?

PHILLY?

We led in all 4 games Moss and droped passes cost us GB. And the other 3 we held nice leads but the defense crapped them away.

NE?

I'll give you Dallas and TB but he threw for over 300 yards each game, and the cowboy game he played outstanding its not his fault nobody covered TO..The TB game CP and Moss got us in a hole quick 19-0 and he still almost brung us back.

Lets be honest here we are playing better has a team. Defense has stepped up,running game,playaction is working.

We are holding leads now thats the biggest difference to me.

TC has played great and should finish this unless he stinks it up in the playoffs. But lets be honest he has'nt dealt with the injuries,drops and porious defense that JC did.

This whole team deserves credit not just TC and its nice to see healthy wr's getting seperation.

We have our QB of the future let him get healthy and we have a bright future. Ride TC till it ends this year. Thier is no need for 95% of the people on this board to poop on JC to promote TC. Just support both and be glad were winning and enjoy the ride.

[six4g]

my post from another thread..

We did'nt lose 7 games because of qb play, period.

GB?

NYG?

BILLS?

PHILLY?

We led in all 4 games Moss and droped passes cost us GB. And the other 3 we held nice leads but the defense crapped them away.

NE?

I'll give you Dallas and TB but he threw for over 300 yards each game, and the cowboy game he played outstanding its not his fault nobody covered TO..The TB game CP and Moss got us in a hole quick 19-0 and he still almost brung us back.

Lets be honest here we are playing better has a team. Defense has stepped up,running game,playaction is working.

We are holding leads now thats the biggest difference to me.

TC has played great and should finish this unless he stinks it up in the playoffs. But lets be honest he has'nt dealt with the injuries,drops and porious defense that JC did.

This whole team deserves credit not just TC and its nice to see healthy wr's getting seperation.

We have our QB of the future let him get healthy and we have a bright future. Ride TC till it ends this year. Thier is no need for 95% of the people on this board to poop on JC to promote TC. Just support both and be glad were winning and enjoy the ride.

I don't think it has ever been put so clearly. :applause: :applause: :applause:

Uh, your President could use a good press secretary. :notworthy

[Gigantor]

- Fewer dropped balls

I think this is directly attributable to JCs accuracy issues and the fact that his throws are almost always bullets and hard to catch.

- Offensive line has gelled now with Fabini and Heyer

I think the better oline play is because TC gets rid of the ball quickly, so they don't have to block for 12 seconds, just 7 seconds.

- The defense is just playing inspired ball

That's because they're mostly fresh because the offense is able to substain long drives, instead of 3 and outs.

The reasons for the turnaround are many in addition to the great play by Collins.

- Fewer dropped balls

- Fewer fumbles from players other than the qb

- Offensive line has gelled now with Fabini and Heyer

- Moss and ARE are healthy, Thrash is back, Caldwell has stepped in

- The defense is just playing inspired ball

- Portis is finally healthy and in game shape

All of these things have helped the Skins play better the last four games.

[Loyal2Washington]

2) You seem to suffer from an inattention to deatil: the point being made is that Collins is a creature of a system. He has evident weaknesses (read athletic limitation) that can be exploited by simply moving him out of the containing bounds of the system. The true winners win precisely because they can stretch themselves beyond the confines of a system when it counts and/or is needed....ala Brady....or Manning.....

as for the "bonehead INTs"...in your relentless pursuit of spin...you neglect context: JC was bringing the team back..often with little time...due to mistakes others had made. TC hasn't been placed in that situation...in large part cuz the defense is carrying this team.

I want a complete QB....not some octogenarian who needs eveyone else to function at 110% in order to do well. JC has the potentail to become a complete QB across the board. TC needs a system - his limitations are obvious.

as for the "potential" retort...spare me. only those not blessed with common sense at birth feel that 1 season in inactive status holding a clipboard, one season of 5 games in a mop-up roll, and 12 games as the full time starter make for a complete trial. especially since there was unequivocal progress. it's is mindnumbing how myopic some of the arguments put forth have been.

TC has the hot hand....you don't risk JC's future anyway (draw what inferences you want from that...:-)....).....so you play TC on this run. a run that is quite unique: a career back-up playing flawlessly; a defense dominating games and placing the offense in position to succeed; no speacial teams lapses (save for a dropped snap on a fieldgoal); a lot of luck (fumbles, ints, referee calls); a mudered player whose memory inspires almost mystical confidence and effort in the team overall..and certain jkey players specifically. If you all can't see the wider picture here...and what is really going on...then I'm sorry for ya. you're missing the real drama! the real storyline.

I find it deplorably depressing that the demand is play TC next season...rather than....raise the bar on JC so that the timing part of the game is down. You get TC + mobility + a deep ball with JC...in addition to not fouling up your drafts and roster management for years to come.

Wow lots of well thought out pro Campbell anti-Collins propaganda. Your second point is useless as neither QB has shown any potential to be compared to Brady or Manning. So if the argument is now who is the better system QB, as we have now established that neither is in the elite category, then the nod goes to Collins. As far as Campbells performance late in games, most notable Dallass and TB, it doesn't matter what the team did in the first quarter, I agree with you in the argument that any NFL QB can win when the game when the game is under control from the jump, but Campbell choked badly. Great QB's would win at least one of those, and the throws were incredibly bad, as the D baited him in every instance. As far as Collins physical attributes it means nothing. Trent Green ran the same offense with the same weak arm for years and defense's still had there hands full. Most see Campbells first 17 starts for what they are, which is very average. JC has lead no last minute drives even though he has had numerous opportunities, is below .500 as a starter, and is very bad in the turnover and game management aspect of the game.

Now if Campbell can reach the same level of comfort in the offense as Collins then JC should be the starter due to his added physical skills but physical ability does not win many games as a QB in the NFL when compared to smarts. If, as you put it, we could have JC's physical ability with TC's knowledge then this whole issue could be erased. Most people just want to win and whether it's Campbell or Collins doesn't matter but to ignore what the offense has done the last four weeks is to ignore the bigger question mark facing the organization and the QB position.

[FanSinceSonnyJ]

so many Redskins haters!

how sad.....

No "haters" here my man. Just a bunch of diehard Skins fans who love QB's that can execute a Gibbs' coached offense to perfection. Theisman, Williams, Rypien, etc. Being dissapointed with JC's mediocre play hardly makes us "haters". Grow up and quit labeling folks.

[FanSinceSonnyJ]

Bingo! Exactly what you said. We don't need a Joe Montana, just a QB that does what you just stated. If he keeps playing at this level, I can see us going all the way. Now you can't say the same if JC was still playing as the season would have ended Sunday evening. Simple as that.

Sounds like you and I are on the same page. :applause:

This isn't rocket science.

I truly believe that some on this board are more concerned about JC being under center, regardless of how many times he chockes, than actually winning ball games.

[FanSinceSonnyJ]

- Fewer dropped balls

I think this is directly attributable to JCs accuracy issues and the fact that his throws are almost always bullets and hard to catch.

- Offensive line has gelled now with Fabini and Heyer

I think the better oline play is because TC gets rid of the ball quickly, so they don't have to block for 12 seconds, just 7 seconds.

- The defense is just playing inspired ball

That's because they're mostly fresh because the offense is able to substain long drives, instead of 3 and outs.

Excellent points all. Best not baffle the JC lover crowd with the cold hard facts.

[Gigantor]

I truly believe that some on this board are more concerned about JC being under center, regardless of how many times he chockes, than actually winning ball games.

Sadly, I agree. Some want another Doug Williams and I understand that, but not at all costs, not at the expense of the team's success.

[FanSinceSonnyJ]

speaking of spinning...it's problematic figuring out which of your posts serves up the greatest fantasy-speak....the defense has created the opportunities for TC in every game...the defense has smothered the running game in every game....

TC has been a pleasant surpise...he's also a liability given his lmitted mobility and questionable arm strength. we are on a nice run...but these are weaknesses that smart coaches with good Ds will exploit.....

Oh I see. The Bears, Giants, Vikings, and Cowboys lack smart defensive coaches so that is how the "limited mobility" and "questionable arm strength" of TC has beaten each of them?! :laugh:

Tell us guy, how many interceptions has TC thrown in these 4 games? How many wins? How many losses? Now, how many interceptions did your guy throw when he was starting? How many wins did JC have in his last 4 starts? How many losses? Hmm?

I suggest you cease this criticism of TC now as you are embarrassing yourself.

Most Skins fans will take TC with all his "limited mobility" and "questionable arm strength" along with the wins over the errant throws and bonehead interceptions down the stretch any day of the week.

[bobzmuda]

Spoken like a troll. No blind love for TC. If he played as poorly as JC has when it comes to finishing games, I'd be just as critical as him. Thankfully for all of us, he has not.

How come you're not all over TC for his three turnovers like you were all over Campbell?

I know the answer.

You're a hypocritical troll, overlooking what your favorite player did, even though it was just as harmful to the team as your least favorite player did.

I'll break it down more for you.

Campbell turns the ball over, you freak out about how he needs to protect the ball. Collins turns the ball over, you overlook it completely. Therefore you are hypocritical.

You continue to disparage a player on the team even though he is not playing and has no immediate future prospects of playing and even though no one is advocating him playing in the immediate future. Therefore you are trolling for responses.

You are not just as critical of your favorite player who turns the ball over in the most important game of the past four years more than your least favorite player does in other games. All turnovers hurt a team. Therefore you are a fan of a favorite player more than the team.

Most fans here are fans of the entire team, not just one player, and their considered, rational posts demonstrate so. They understand that being a fan of TC and JC are not mutually exclusive.

Now THOSE are cold hard facts. You should post on Todd Collins' blog since that's where your loyalties truly lie.

Judas.

[FanSinceSonnyJ]

Wow lots of well thought out pro Campbell anti-Collins propaganda. Your second point is useless as neither QB has shown any potential to be compared to Brady or Manning. So if the argument is now who is the better system QB, as we have now established that neither is in the elite category, then the nod goes to Collins. As far as Campbells performance late in games, most notable Dallass and TB, it doesn't matter what the team did in the first quarter, I agree with you in the argument that any NFL QB can win when the game when the game is under control from the jump, but Campbell choked badly. Great QB's would win at least one of those, and the throws were incredibly bad, as the D baited him in every instance. As far as Collins physical attributes it means nothing. Trent Green ran the same offense with the same weak arm for years and defense's still had there hands full. Most see Campbells first 17 starts for what they are, which is very average. JC has lead no last minute drives even though he has had numerous opportunities, is below .500 as a starter, and is very bad in the turnover and game management aspect of the game.

Now if Campbell can reach the same level of comfort in the offense as Collins then JC should be the starter due to his added physical skills but physical ability does not win many games as a QB in the NFL when compared to smarts. If, as you put it, we could have JC's physical ability with TC's knowledge then this whole issue could be erased. Most people just want to win and whether it's Campbell or Collins doesn't matter but to ignore what the offense has done the last four weeks is to ignore the bigger question mark facing the organization and the QB position.

Any reasonable fan could not argue this position. Sadly FanSince62 sees a half empty glass unless his guy is under center. These types will never give TC his props just as they won't give their guy any of the blame for his lackluster performance. Quite sad and pitiful.

[bobzmuda]

These types will never give TC his props just as they won't give their guy any of the blame for his lackluster performance. Quite sad and pitiful.

SHOW ME EXAMPLES of where fansince62 or even myself have not given TC props.

SHOW ME EXAMPLES of where fansince62 or even myself have not given JC blame.

I'll save you time again. You can't.

Why do you make up these blatantly false arguments as if to martyr Todd Collins?

[FanSinceSonnyJ]

How come you're not all over TC for his three turnovers like you were all over Campbell?

I know the answer.

You're a hypocritical troll, overlooking what your favorite player did, even though it was just as harmful to the team as your least favorite player did.

I'll break it down more for you.

Campbell turns the ball over, you freak out about how he needs to protect the ball. Collins turns the ball over, you overlook it completely. Therefore you are hypocritical.

You continue to disparage a player on the team even though he is not playing and has no immediate future prospects of playing and even though no one is advocating him playing in the immediate future. Therefore you are trolling for responses.

You are not just as critical of your favorite player who turns the ball over in the most important game of the past four years more than your least favorite player does in other games. All turnovers hurt a team. Therefore you are a fan of a favorite player more than the team.

Now THOSE are cold hard facts. You should post on Todd Collins' blog since that's where your loyalties truly lie.

Judas.

Actually it is you who is the troll. Your mindless defense of JC along with your name-calling is pitiful. If fans around here are not on board with JC they must be a troll right? :laugh:

TC has yet to throw an interception. He fumbled a couple of times in the pouring down ran, yet also made plays to lead us to a win - something JC has not been able to do. He is clearly more accurate than JC and clearly reads the field quicker and finds the open guy versus forcing passes are being baited by defenses into making bad decisions (remember the Tamba Bay, and the Cowboy game debacles?). Sorry guy, JC has had many, many chances to show us something when the chips are down. TC is playing great and as a result we are not having to play last second thriller type games as we are moving the ball through the air and scoring.

Whoever can prove to win us ball games, and not cost us games will always be my guy at the QB position. Between JC and TC, it's a no brainer. Sorry you are too dense to see the forest through all those trees.

[Gigantor]

Most Skins fans will take TC with all his "limited mobility" and "questionable arm strength" along with the wins over the errant throws and bonehead interceptions down the stretch any day of the week.

Lets look at some numbers and try to use some logic instead of emotions. Notice everything is about the same (if projected to an equal number of games) except for the interceptions and thus the rating.

What does this tell us?

Player Att Comp Yds Comp% Yds/Att TD

TD% INT INT% Long Sck Sack/Lost Rating

Jason Campbell 417 250 2700 60.0 6.5 12 2.9 11 2.6 54 21 110 77.6

Todd Collins 105 67 888 63.8 8.5 5 4.8 0 0.0 54 7 47 106.4

[kingfish50]

How come you're not all over TC for his three turnovers like you were all over Campbell?

I know the answer.

You're a hypocritical troll, overlooking what your favorite player did, even though it was just as harmful to the team as your least favorite player did.

I'll break it down more for you.

Campbell turns the ball over, you freak out about how he needs to protect the ball. Collins turns the ball over, you overlook it completely. Therefore you are hypocritical.

You continue to disparage a player on the team even though he is not playing and has no immediate future prospects of playing and even though no one is advocating him playing in the immediate future. Therefore you are trolling for responses.

You are not just as critical of your favorite player who turns the ball over in the most important game of the past four years more than your least favorite player does in other games. All turnovers hurt a team. Therefore you are a fan of a favorite player more than the team.

Most fans here are fans of the entire team, not just one player, and their considered, rational posts demonstrate so. They understand that being a fan of TC and JC are not mutually exclusive.

Now THOSE are cold hard facts. You should post on Todd Collins' blog since that's where your loyalties truly lie.

Judas.

What the heck did he just say?.....:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[kingfish50]

Actually it is you who is the troll. Your mindless defense of JC along with your name-calling is pitiful. If fans around here are not on board with JC they must be a troll right? :laugh:

TC has yet to throw an interception. He fumbled a couple of times in the pouring down ran, yet also made plays to lead us to a win - something JC has not been able to do. He is clearly more accurate than JC and clearly reads the field quicker and finds the open guy versus forcing passes are being baited by defenses into making bad decisions (remember the Tamba Bay, and the Cowboy game debacles?). Sorry guy, JC has had many, many chances to show us something when the chips are down. TC is playing great and as a result we are not having to play last second thriller type games as we are moving the ball through the air and scoring.

Whoever can prove to win us ball games, and not cost us games will always be my guy at the QB position. Between JC and TC, it's a no brainer. Sorry you are too dense to see the forest through all those trees.

I've got this feeling that no matter how much or how many times you explain it, certain people just aren't going to get it....:doh:

[CrypticVillain]

- Fewer dropped balls

I think this is directly attributable to JCs accuracy issues and the fact that his throws are almost always bullets and hard to catch.

- Offensive line has gelled now with Fabini and Heyer

I think the better oline play is because TC gets rid of the ball quickly, so they don't have to block for 12 seconds, just 7 seconds.

- The defense is just playing inspired ball

That's because they're mostly fresh because the offense is able to substain long drives, instead of 3 and outs.

Damn, when you say it like that I don't know how anybody can say that for RIGHT NOW Campbell is better then Collins