Looks like we just needed a QB change...

[IrepDC]

And what is it about a 77.6 QB rating that tells you Campbell was playing well? Do you even know what you're watching?

...and what about my last post doesn't explain WHY Campbell had a 77.6 rating? I do know what I'm wathcing, in fact, you have to actually WATCH the games to point out all the things I listed in my last post. Anyone can throw up a stat off NFL.com without watching a single play.

[ttr77]

good luck TC! practice with an up tempo metronome - the heat escalates in the playoffs and as will timing demands.

I'm glad there is a QB playing now that has shown he can handle the pressure!

[RedDog58]

JC had two drives in the Bears game that went the length of the field , both stalled by CP run's that went no where and even lost yardage. Then Suisham missed two field goals. I don't disagree that TC is playing better but explain to me again why CP running backwards and Suisham missing field goals is JC's fault. I guess I'm too ignorant to understand that.

One of Suisham's misses was a 47 yarder after a 35 yard drive. Hardly the length of the field. Besides, it was Campbells poor decision to throw a five yard pass on third and seven that killed that drive.

Bottom line: Did Campbell put points on the board or didn't he? Did Collins put up points or didn't he?

[RedDog58]

...and what about my last post doesn't explain WHY Campbell had a 77.6 rating? I do know what I'm wathcing, in fact, you have to actually WATCH the games to point out all the things I listed in my last post. Anyone can throw up a stat off NFL.com without watching a single play.

Campbell has a 77.6 rating because he's a below average QB. All the other garbage you pointed out is nothing but excuse making.

[ttr77]

Mark Maske said it perfectly on WPL, Collins is a pitcher who is going thru the league at once and can be exposed the 2nd go around. But there isnt a 2nd go around with him with such a short season upon us. However, the deficiencies of him would be exposed over the long haul of the season.

Allow me to put on my Miss Cleo headdress here...ok. Here's my prediction:

Collins will sign a new contract here in the offseason for 2-3 years, with a stipulation that there be an open competition for the QB position next year. And I bet he wins it.

[tryfuhl]

Mark Maske said it perfectly on WPL, Collins is a pitcher who is going thru the league at once and can be exposed the 2nd go around. But there isnt a 2nd go around with him with such a short season upon us. However, the deficiencies of him would be exposed over the long haul of the season.

Todd works how Saunders' system is supposed to. As long as he stays accurate enough he should be fine. He doesn't have any tricks per se, short wind up, quick release is good. He reads the defense well and puts it where the receiver needs to be. That type of offense keeps a defense honest because they have to read his reads in the time that it takes him to do a 3 or 5 stop drop and release right at the end of the drop. You can read a guy telegraphing a receiver, instead, Todd keeps his eyes downfield and finds the area the ball needs to be, not where the receiver is. That's a hard system to play "catch up" to.

[IrepDC]

Campbell has a 77.6 rating because he's a below average QB. All the other garbage you pointed out is nothing but excuse making.

How are facts about what's going on with the team around our QB garbage??? You asked me if I watched the games and the facts that I've listed prove that I not only watch the games but I use a tad bit of critical thinking before I open my mouth.

You want me to believe that ONE player can make an entire team play better but you can't understand the concept of an entire TEAM making one players stats worse? Think about it man.

[RocketCitySkins]

One of Suisham's misses was a 47 yarder after a 35 yard drive. Hardly the length of the field. Besides, it was Campbells poor decision to throw a five yard pass on third and seven that killed that drive.

Bottom line: Did Campbell put points on the board or didn't he? Did Collins put up points or didn't he?

Campbells "poor decision" was due to the pressure that was coming through the right side of the line. Even the announcers called it.

[bobzmuda]

Campbell has a 77.6 rating because he's a below average QB. All the other garbage you pointed out is nothing but excuse making.

Please don't hang your hat on QB rating. It's a garbage stat.

If you have other criticisms of a QB (whether other stats or personal observation), I would think those would be more relevant to discussion than QB rating. Just my opinion.

[ozskin]

TC is playing better than JC was.......Its that simple

Did JC cost us a game?.....maybe TB

But TC adds value----Better Reads, Quick Release, Interceptions, Accuracy, Touch and Leadership

I doubt JC wins 4 in a row (but to be honest who would have thought TC would?)

If the Future is NOW.....its with TC

What is with the dotted..........lines around here............so many people.........do it........It's so freakin............annoying.

[mistertim]

You want me to believe that ONE player can make an entire team play better but you can't understand the concept of an entire TEAM making one players stats worse? Think about it man.

Exactly. TC is playing well but he isn't carrying the team and isn't the sole reason we are winning, which some people seem to imply. Personally, I'd say it is a bit insulting to the rest of the team to imply something like that considering how well everyone else is playing. Our defense is playing completely lights out right now. Portis is running like a madman. Our O line is opening up good holes in the run game and doing pretty well in pass protection. The TEAM is playing very well right now, not JUST Collins.

[zCommander]

Campbell has a 77.6 rating because he's a below average QB. All the other garbage you pointed out is nothing but excuse making.

:doh: :doh: :doh: Looks like you are the one who isn't watching the game. IREPDC has detailed the reason for why JC doesn't have the numbers he should. But you still fail to see that.

I overslept and was late to work is an excuse because that is my fault. But if your WR doesn't hold on to the damn ball then in your eye that is still JC's fault. I guess in your football world JC should have thrown a deep pass to Moss and then ran over there and caught the ball for him and then hand it to him. :doh:

If JC had done that then his QB rating would have been higher on completed passes and in your book would have been an above avg. QB based on stats alone.

[RedDog58]

The team that JC went 5-7 with and the team that Collins has gone 4-0 with are much MUCH different.

JC played the majority of his games without Moss and Randel El, and when they were in they were playing injured.

Collins has been playing with a 100% Moss and Randel EL.

JC played with Caldwell and McCardell when they'd only had DAYS to learn an entire offense.

Collins has been playing with Caldwell and McCardell after they've had a weeks to get situated.

JC' had to throw to Thrash and B. Lloyd at one point...........

JC played while our o-line was dropping like flies... and while our backup o-line was coming in and getting situated.

Collins has been playing with an o-line that has had weeks to jell and are already in a rhythm.

JC played with a RB, Portis, who was coming off injury and trying to get back on track.

Collins has been playing with a RB, Portis, who has had time to get back on track with himself and his o-line.

JC played with a defense that was playing soft and giving up a lot of big plays.

Collins has been playing with a defense that is aggresive and forces turnovers to give our offense a short field.

JC played with a team and coaching staff that seemed uninspired and unfocused at times.

Collins has been playing with a team and coaching staff that has come together and been motivated, focused, and inspired after the passing of their fallen teammate.

Call me crazy, but I think the cause of this 4 game winning streak is due to more than a QB change. Collins has played well but Campbell was playing very well also. Collins hasn't been THAT much better than Campbell that he should be getting all the praise for this streak. But that's just my opinion.

I guess I'll have to blow this up line by line:

1. Randall El has not been out most of the year. He's missed three starts and played in fifteen of sixteen games.. Look at the game logs and you'll see that in fact Randall El caught more passes with Campbell at QB than with Collins. This goes back to watching the games.

Moss has missed two starts this year. Again that's not "the majority". Coming off of one of them he had his best game of the season so spare me the, "hurt all year" garbage.

2. McCardell has caught one pass in the last four games. How is that an advantage for Collins? Caldwell has started one game all season, that with Campbell at QB and Campbell never threw his way. It took Collins to figure out that Caldwell can play.

3. Lloyd hasn't started a game since Miami, and the only pass I remember Campbell throwing to him since he missed him on fly pattern threw blown coverage for a TD. Campbell has no touch on deep balls. Collins has four TDs of 20+ yards, Campbell had one.

4. If the O Line was "already in a rhythm", then explain the Bears game to us. Oh wait, the rhythm started at halftime, right?

5. Portis has played all season. Saying he's coming off an injury that's over a year old is excuse making. He Had back to back huge games with Campbell at the helm and they went 1-1. He also gained just 36 yards rushing against the Bears and Collins put up 24 points in a little more than one half.

6. The defense that was "soft" was also on the the field too much, and the opponent was given short fields too often. Now that Campbell and his 1.8 turnovers per game are on the bench things look better. Credit that to the new "energy" that Bubba Tyer talked about that appeared when Collins took over.

7. The coaching staff was "unfocused"? Pure speculation.

Look, I'm done with this peeing contest. Love Campbell all you want but the facts speak for themselves. Campbell was killing the 'Skins and since he went out they're a different team.

[IrepDC]

I guess I'll have to blow this up line by line:

1. Randall El has not been out most of the year. He's missed three starts and played in fifteen of sixteen games.. Look at the game logs and you'll see that in fact Randall El caught more passes with Campbell at QB than with Collins. This goes back to watching the games.

Moss has missed two starts this year. Again that's not "the majority". Coming off of one of them he had his best game of the season so spare me the, "hurt all year" garbage.

2. McCardell has caught one pass in the last four games. How is that an advantage for Collins. Again, start watching the games. Caldwell has started one game all season, that with Campbell at QB and Campbell never threw his way. It took Collins to figure out that Caldwell can play.

3. Lloyd hasn't started a game since Miami, and the only pass I remember Campbell throwing to him since he missed him on fly pattern threw blown coverage for a TD. Campbell has no touch on deep balls. Collins has four TDs of 20+ yards, Campbell had one.

4. If the O Line was "already in a rhythm", then explain the Bears game to us. Oh wait, the rhythm started at halftime, right?

5. Portis has played all season. Saying he's coming off an injury that's over a year old is excuse making. He Had back to back huge games with Campbell at the helm and they went 1-1. He also gained just 36 yards rushing against the Bears and Collins put up 24 points in a little more than one half.

6. The defense that was "soft" was also on the the field too much, and the opponent was given short fields too often. Now that Campbell and his 1.8 turnovers per game are on the bench things look better. Credit that to the new "energy" that Bubba Tyer talked about that appeared when Collins took over.

7. The coaching staff was "unfocused"? Pure speculation.

Look, I'm done with this peeing contest. Love Campbell all you want but the facts speak for themselves. Campbell was killing the 'Skins and since he went out they're a different team.

Why you're trying to down play every other problem this team has had this season is beyond me. I guess in your world all of the injuries, and dropped passes, and missed blocks, and fumbles by other players, and players that weren't even on the team in training camp, and blown coverages, and missed tackles, and missed FGs, and poor play calls don't effect the outcome of a game. In your world it's just Campbell that was "killing" the Skins. I respect your opinion though, I'll be sure to bring it up next year when Campbell is lighting it up.

...and for the record I do not participate in "peeing contests" as you call it. I was simply stating my opinion.

[mistertim]

Caldwell has started one game all season, that with Campbell at QB and Campbell never threw his way. It took Collins to figure out that Caldwell can play.

It is generally a good idea to research things before you say something. Caldwell caught more passes for more yards in the same number of games games with Campbell at the helm as he has with Collins. It took me all of 2 minutes to research that. Is that really that much to ask?

[Dingani]

I posted this on another thread but I thought perhaps it belongs here as well since many of you commenting on this thread believe that the offense would be better with Jason Campbell. The biggest reason we are scoring is:

While there are always exceptions to the rule, as a rule Todd is doing what CAMPBELL cannot do. Which is drop back and throw a pass without hesitation. Has Todd a couple of times gone through a progression of reads, sure. But I think the thing overlooked is that he does this not because the protection is better, but the protection appears better BECAUSE of what Todd does with the ball most of the time.

Teams were constantly blitzing and pressuring Jason Campbell and jamming receivers because they knew the quarterback was going to panic and bolt from the pocket. With Todd, they can blitz. He will dump off or throw the ball away or hit a receiver in stride or deal with it. If they jam receivers, Todd also has the patience and the ability to read the defense and spot open receivers, something Jason cannot do.

So yes you are right that Todd occasionally sits in the pocket, BUT, its due to his play and his choosing and not because of better pass protectors.

I have never believed that Peyton Manning and Tom Brady and Tony Romo sits to pee all just happen to have great offensive lines. Great qb's seem to "assist" offensive linemen by making quick reads and releasing the ball to a receiver before the break and by dumping off or getting rid of the ball. David Carr is a classic example of a bad QB who makes his offensive linemen look like boobs. As soon as Carr left, the sack total left also. In the same way, as soon as Campbell left, we suddenly scored a lot, had less sacks, and zero interceptions....and yet everybody wants to claim that the offensive linemen have found something new. Yes they have...they found Todd Collins.

[ttr77]

I posted this on another thread but I thought perhaps it belongs here as well since many of you commenting on this thread believe that the offense would be better with Jason Campbell. The biggest reason we are scoring is:

I hope you post this in every JC/TC thread out there, because it's well written.

Of course, it would take you about 3 days to reply to all of them, so I can't blame you for not doing so

[mistertim]

Teams were constantly blitzing and pressuring Jason Campbell and jamming receivers because they knew the quarterback was going to panic and bolt from the pocket. With Todd, they can blitz. He will dump off or throw the ball away or hit a receiver in stride or deal with it. If they jam receivers, Todd also has the patience and the ability to read the defense and spot open receivers, something Jason cannot do.

And teams can blitz Collins because he has zero escapability. Keep in mind that in 3.5 games Collins has been sacked 7 times. If you project that to a full season it is 32 sacks which is higher than Campbell's projected sack numbers. And this is with the O line playing relatively well in pass protection. I know that stats don't tell the whole story but you are making it sound like Collins constantly gets the ball out immediately, and when he gets pressure he always makes a read and dumps it off. This is obviously not true. If you want to call avoiding a sack and scrambling for a 1st down or a decent gain, something Campbell has done quite a few times this year, "panicking" then so be it.

[RedDog58]

It is generally a good idea to research things before you say something. Caldwell caught more passes for more yards in the same number of games games with Campbell at the helm as he has with Collins. It took me all of 2 minutes to research that. Is that really that much to ask?

That cannot possibly be true. I was just told by another poster that Caldwell wasn't an asset to the team while Campbell was playing.

[Dingani]

And teams can blitz Collins because he has zero escapability. Keep in mind that in 3.5 games Collins has been sacked 7 times. If you project that to a full season it is 32 sacks which is higher than Campbell's projected sack numbers. And this is with the O line playing relatively well in pass protection. I know that stats don't tell the whole story but you are making it sound like Collins constantly gets the ball out immediately, and when he gets pressure he always makes a read and dumps it off. This is obviously not true. If you want to call avoiding a sack and scrambling for a 1st down or a decent gain, something Campbell has done quite a few times this year, "panicking" then so be it.

you failed to mention a couple of things. We played the Chicago Bears, New York Giants, Minnesota Vikings, and Dallas Cowboys, TWO of those teams are playoff teams and in fact the Giants lead the league in sacks. The Bears defense is notorius for blitzing and sacking. And in fact the Demarcus Ware sack and fumble on Collins was a 7 step drop by Collins and Ware got there in 2.3 seconds around Samuels and Todd was in the process of releasing the ball but Samuels did such a poor job that not even Brady or Manning or Romo sits to pee or Montana would have gotten the ball away. It has nothing to do with escapability when a QB drops back and is blindsided in 2.3 seconds.

You are clearly not understanding what has been said.

[bobzmuda]

I posted this on another thread but I thought perhaps it belongs here as well since many of you commenting on this thread believe that the offense would be better with Jason Campbell.

I don't remember seeing many people believing the offense would be better off with JC. There are folks that are showing how some surrounding circumstances are different under TC. But I don't think any of them are saying the recent success of the team is solely, or even mainly, attributable to those change circumstances. Certainly no one is denying TC has played a significant role in the turnaround.

While there are always exceptions to the rule, as a rule Todd is doing what CAMPBELL cannot do. Which is drop back and throw a pass without hesitation. Has Todd a couple of times gone through a progression of reads, sure. But I think the thing overlooked is that he does this not because the protection is better, but the protection appears better BECAUSE of what Todd does with the ball most of the time.

Teams were constantly blitzing and pressuring Jason Campbell and jamming receivers because they knew the quarterback was going to panic and bolt from the pocket. With Todd, they can blitz. He will dump off or throw the ball away or hit a receiver in stride or deal with it. If they jam receivers, Todd also has the patience and the ability to read the defense and spot open receivers, something Jason cannot do.

So yes you are right that Todd occasionally sits in the pocket, BUT, its due to his play and his choosing and not because of better pass protectors.

Perhaps to some degree you're right. But it strikes me as unusual that Collins has been sacked more frequently than Campbell. Collins has been sacked on 6.3% of his dropbacks (attempts plus sacks), while Campbell was sacked on only 4.3% of his dropbacks. Just from watching the game it appears Collins is willing to hold the ball a lot longer than Campbell in order to find a receiver at the risk of a sack/strip. It's worked out well so far, but he makes me really nervous with how long he holds it - he shows a lot more faith in the OL than I have right now. Again, it's working and I continue to hope it works, but I can see the possibility of disaster.

I have never believed that Peyton Manning and Tom Brady and Tony Romo sits to pee all just happen to have great offensive lines. Great qb's seem to "assist" offensive linemen by making quick reads and releasing the ball to a receiver before the break and by dumping off or getting rid of the ball. David Carr is a classic example of a bad QB who makes his offensive linemen look like boobs. As soon as Carr left, the sack total left also. In the same way, as soon as Campbell left, we suddenly scored a lot, had less sacks, and zero interceptions....and yet everybody wants to claim that the offensive linemen have found something new. Yes they have...they found Todd Collins.

I don't think the improvement is as simple as Collins was substituted for Campbell. Especially since Collins takes sacks more frequently than Campbell. Now add to that that Collins has primarily been playing with a lead and has not faced many pass rushers with their ears pinned back, add Collins' frightening level of patience, and I think your thesis, while sound in theory, may not be most applicable here.

[Dingani]

I don't remember seeing many people believing the offense would be better off with JC. There are folks that are showing how some surrounding circumstances are different under TC. But I don't think any of them are saying the recent success of the team is solely, or even mainly, attributable to those change circumstances. Certainly no one is denying TC has played a significant role in the turnaround.

Perhaps to some degree you're right. But it strikes me as unusual that Collins has been sacked more frequently than Campbell. Collins has been sacked on 6.3% of his dropbacks (attempts plus sacks), while Campbell was sacked on only 4.3% of his dropbacks. Just from watching the game it appears Collins is willing to hold the ball a lot longer than Campbell in order to find a receiver at the risk of a sack/strip. It's worked out well so far, but he makes me really nervous with how long he holds it - he shows a lot more faith in the OL than I have right now. Again, it's working and I continue to hope it works, but I can see the possibility of disaster.

I don't think the improvement is as simple as Collins was substituted for Campbell. Especially since Collins takes sacks more frequently than Campbell. Now add to that that Collins has primarily been playing with a lead and has not faced many pass rushers with their ears pinned back, add Collins' frightening level of patience, and I think your thesis, while sound in theory, may not be most applicable here.

Even allowing that Collins has started 3 games, TWO THIRDS of those games have come against playoff teams, and in fact, if we hadn't beaten Minnesota, then all 3 would have been against playoff teams. Todd never had the pleasure of playing Miami, or the Jets, or Detroit, etc. Since the moment he has come in, he has been playing playoff teams and playoff defenses. Don't think Chicago was a good defense. Try telling that to Green Bay or New Orleans over the last 2 weeks. Don't think New York is a good defense? They lead the league in sacks. Don't think Dallas is good at rushing the passer? Try checking out the number of pro bowl players they have INCLUDING Demarcus Ware who sacked Todd.

Stop trying to find fault with Todd Collins while holding Campbell blameless for his 5-7 record as QB. Todd is better, even against playoff teams, and he is interception FREE and his record is 4-0. Why not just accept these facts?

[mistertim]

you failed to mention a couple of things. We played the Chicago Bears, New York Giants, Minnesota Vikings, and Dallas Cowboys, TWO of those teams are playoff teams and in fact the Giants lead the league in sacks. The Bears defense is notorius for blitzing and sacking. And in fact the Demarcus Ware sack and fumble on Collins was a 7 step drop by Collins and Ware got there in 2.3 seconds around Samuels and Todd was in the process of releasing the ball but Samuels did such a poor job that not even Brady or Manning or Romo sits to pee or Montana would have gotten the ball away. It has nothing to do with escapability when a QB drops back and is blindsided in 2.3 seconds.

You are clearly not understanding what has been said.

What is your point about who he played? Didn't Campbell play Dallas, the Giants, the Pats, the Eagles (2 times), the Lions and the Packers? All of those teams have at the very least pretty good, and in some cases elite pass rushes. Yes Collins got blindsided when Samuels was beat on the edge and it resulted in a sack and a fumble while the QB was about to throw the ball. Hmm. I seem to remember that happening to Campbell at least a few times as well. If you want to compare parts of the QBs games that is completely fair. But you have to use the same criteria to judge them.

[Dingani]

What is your point about who he played? Didn't Campbell play Dallas, the Giants, the Pats, the Eagles (2 times), the Lions and the Packers? All of those teams have at the very least pretty good, and in some cases elite pass rushes? Yes Collins got blindsided when Samuels was beat on the edge and it resulted in a sack and a fumble while the QB was about to throw the ball. Hmm. I seem to remember that happening to Campbell at least a few times as well. If you want to compare parts of the QBs games that is completely fair. But you have to use the same criteria to judge them.

Yes we did play the Pats. And as aI recall, a Jason Campbell offense was held SCORELESS for all but the last 2 minutes when the PATS gave the Skins a free TD. Look, the point is that yes Jason played some of the same teams and he even played a bunch of losing teams....and he came up empty with a 5-7 record. Todd is 4-0 with ZERO interceptions. I have no idea why some of you Campbell koolaide drinkers just can't get on the Todd Collins party machine and get with the flow. You won't be happy until Campbell is back fumbling and thorwing interceptions and incompletions. My guess is that you will get your wish next season. Lets all hope that Jason learns something from watching Todd and somehow, miraculously, het GETS IT. And understands that he can throw from a 5 step drop without patting the ball and bolting from the pocket.

[mistertim]

Yes we did play the Pats. And as aI recall, a Jason Campbell offense was held SCORELESS for all but the last 2 minutes when the PATS gave the Skins a free TD. Look, the point is that yes Jason played some of the same teams and he even played a bunch of losing teams....and he came up empty with a 5-7 record. Todd is 4-0 with ZERO interceptions. I have no idea why some of you Campbell koolaide drinkers just can't get on the Todd Collins party machine and get with the flow. You won't be happy until Campbell is back fumbling and thorwing interceptions and incompletions. My guess is that you will get your wish next season. Lets all hope that Jason learns something from watching Todd and somehow, miraculously, het GETS IT. And understands that he can throw from a 5 step drop without patting the ball and bolting from the pocket.

:laugh: :laugh:

I love how out of the teams I mentioned that he played that have good pass rushes you picked the only one he played where we weren't extremely close to winning or won. If I remember correctly we had the second hardest schedule in the NFL this year...for the whole season. Not just when Collins started. As for the interceptions you're right. Collins is playing smart football and not throwing INTs (although there have been a few VERY close calls). Campbell made mistakes. He admits it, I admit it. But most of those are things that you learn from and it happens to almost every young QB. As far as the fumbles...just stop. Your point has already been debunked on that one. Both by myself and another poster. Collins is fumbling more than Campbell, who also faced VERY GOOD pass rushes and got blindsided more than once.

Collins is playing well and should be the starter for the rest of the year. I just wish people would stop putting all of the blame on games we lost on Campbell and conversely giving all of the credit to Collins in games we won.