Looks like we just needed a QB change...

[Loyal2Washington]

SHOW ME EXAMPLES of where fansince62 or even myself have not given TC props.

SHOW ME EXAMPLES of where fansince62 or even myself have not given JC blame.

Well I think the big difference is that the pro Campbell crowd believes his play is due to the team playing better and that Collins was simply right place right time guy and that JC would have run the table as well.

The pro Campbell crowd tends to blame every other player for the losses and come up with excuses as to how JC had no part in any of the losses and that JC was simply the wrong place wrong time guy and that Collins could not have won any of those games or performed better.

The pro Campbell crowd is worried about what is going to happening 5 years down the road and see Campbell as the only viable option, whereas the Collins camp wants to win now and sees cracks in Campbells facade with 17 games under his belt, and worry JC may very well not be the answer in 5 years.

These are the main points for the arguments and honestly being pro Campbell or Collins has no bearing on anyone's fan hood and is yet another point that we do not have the slightest idea of what Gibbs and Co. are going to do about. In the end we all want a win and we all want Collins to lead us to a victory in Seattle and we all want Campbell to get healthy, after all a healthy QB controversy never hurt anyone.

[bobzmuda]

Actually it is you who is the troll. Your mindless defense of JC along with your name-calling is pitiful. If fans around here are not on board with JC they must be a troll right? :laugh:

If I'm the troll how come I'm not the one that's avoiding the issues?

If I'm the troll how come you're the one that keeps making these strawman arguments about how everyone hates TC and mindlessly loves JC, despite the vast majority of posters expressing appreciation for TC and JC, without ever demonstrating what seemingly imaginary group of posters you're going on and on about.

TC has yet to throw an interception.

He did throw an interception. He also threw another pass in the hands of a defender. Those reflect on TC's passing ability and decision making. That the passes were called back on a penalty and dropped don't reflect on TC's passing ability and decision making.

Unless you think they don't reflect on his passing ability and decision making since they didn't end up in the stat book. If so, your same logic holds that playing Russian Roulette is harmless if on your spin the chamber isn't loaded.

The point is that TC has made mistakes. He's been fortunate that they haven't bitten the team.

That said, virtually everyone acknowledges that TC has made plays and that the team is going to ride his hot hand for the rest of the playoffs.

He fumbled a couple of times in the pouring down ran

Surely, you're not making an excuse for turnovers or being careless with the ball like so many "mindless JC defenders" are you?

So what is it? Can you take mitigating circumstances into account when looking at a QBs turnovers or not? You seem to be arguing that a turnover is a turnover when JC does it, but that TC only fumbled in the "pouring down rain [sic]".

Seems like another one of your many, many inconsistencies.

yet also made plays to lead us to a win - something JC has not been able to do.

Interesting. So Todd Collins managed 9 wins in 4 starts?

He is clearly more accurate than JC and clearly reads the field quicker and finds the open guy versus forcing passes are being baited by defenses into making bad decisions (remember the Tamba Bay, and the Cowboy game debacles?).

You're right that Tc is more accurate than JC right now and is reading the field quicker and finding the open guy. Of course, that's like turning beet red by arguing the Earth revolves around the sun. No one is arguing against that.

Collins has had the good fortune of (1) not being handcuffed by the playcalling as has been admitted as of late and (2) not having to recover from his teammates' turnovers or lack of a running game.

Still, Collins has been playing great and hopefully JC can learn from him during this run.

Whoever can prove to win us ball games, and not cost us games will always be my guy at the QB position.

That sounds reasonable. Some might argue that TC hasn't had to win a game yet, and I might entertain that argument.

Between JC and TC, it's a no brainer. Sorry you are too dense to see the forest through all those trees.

Why do you keep making this strawman argument?

NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT JC SHOULD START OVER TC.

[bobzmuda]

In the end we all want a win and we all want Collins to lead us to a victory in Seattle and we all want Campbell to get healthy, after all a healthy QB controversy never hurt anyone.

I'm not sure why you quoted that particular request since it's pretty clear that regardless of whether you consider someone pro-Campbell or pro-Collins, everyone has given TC credit for his amazing run.

Also, I don't recall folks not saying that JC was excused and blameless for his mistakes. I do recall folks holding him accountable for not making the ultimate plays he needed to make, but taking some solace in him getting his team to that point - something many young QBs weren't able to do.

Still, I think the overwhelming majority of the posters here are in general agreement that Collins starts for the rest of the season. I just don't understand why some folks keep trying to argue that there's this sizable faction arguing for Campbell to immediately replace Collins.

[rcgamer]

It starting to look as if Saunders and Gibbs knew what they were doing all along, we just had the wrong guy under center.

Not the "wrong" QB, just a young QB who hasn't had the time in the system that Todd has.

When JC is as thoroughly competent with the system as Todd is he will be even better.

And for the record, I always knew Al Saunders knew what he was doing.

[Duncan]

I'm not sure why you quoted that particular request since it's pretty clear that regardless of whether you consider someone pro-Campbell or pro-Collins, everyone has given TC credit for his amazing run.

Also, I don't recall folks not saying that JC was excused and blameless for his mistakes. I do recall folks holding him accountable for not making the ultimate plays he needed to make, but taking some solace in him getting his team to that point - something many young QBs weren't able to do.

Still, I think the overwhelming majority of the posters here are in general agreement that Collins starts for the rest of the season. I just don't understand why some folks keep trying to argue that there's this sizable faction arguing for Campbell to immediately replace Collins.

I think the argument is that JC should not automatically be given the starting job and should compete in camp next year. TC has clearly shown he can run this offense well so why not make Jason step up his game. If he rises to the challenge the team benefits. If not, Collins keeps the job until Jason takes it from him. Even JC advocates agree you have to stick with the hot hand this year. Why not next year as well?

Do you think he should be handed the job? What kind of message does that send the rest of the team that clearly is driven to win every game.

You would be hard pressed to find a TC supporter that would complain if JC wins the competition in camp. What is hard to swallow is that some on this board think there should not even be a competition.

TC has a 106 QB rating.

[bobzmuda]

I think the argument is that JC should not automatically be given the starting job and should compete in camp next year. TC has clearly shown he can run this offense well so why not make Jason step up his game. If he rises to the challenge the team benefits. If not, Collins keeps the job until Jason takes it from him. Even JC advocates agree you have to stick with the hot hand this year. Why not next year as well?

Do you think he should be handed the job? What kind of message does that send the rest of the team that clearly is driven to win every game.

I don't think anyone on the team is handed anything. Coach Gibbs has said everyone has to earn it.

First off, the team has to make the decision to bring Collins back and Collins has to make the decision to come back to the team. Hopefully Collins does return because you always want more good players than less.

If Collins returns I'd prefer to see an open competition next spring. If Collins doesn't, I can't see another QB that is on the roster or that could be acquired earning the starting spot over Campbell.

[Duncan]

Fair enough, but some of your posts in this thread have hardly been fair.

“ Hopefully TC cuts down on the turnovers. He was lucky the team bailed him out on his 2 fumbles and Dallas bailed him out on his interception. As FanSinceSonnyJ has pointed out before multiple turnovers from the QB position is unacceptable.”

I agree multiple turnovers are unacceptable but TC has had very few since he took over and a lot less than Jason.

“You keep changing your tune so that it fits your blind love of TC regardless of the situation - so much you have made it obvious you are merely a TC fan (perhaps Mrs. Collins herself?) and not a fan of the team.”

Do you really think anyone had blind love for TC when the season started? 106 QB rating will get the love flowing pretty quickly.

“How come you're not all over TC for his three turnovers like you were all over Campbell? I know the answer. You're a hypocritical troll, overlooking what your favorite player did, even though it was just as harmful to the team as your least favorite player did. I'll break it down more for you. Campbell turns the ball over, you freak out about how he needs to protect the ball. Collins turns the ball over, you overlook it completely. Therefore you are hypocritical. You continue to disparage a player on the team even though he is not playing and has no immediate future prospects of playing and even though no one is advocating him playing in the immediate future. Therefore you are trolling for responses. You are not just as critical of your favorite player who turns the ball over in the most important game of the past four years more than your least favorite player does in other games. All turnovers hurt a team. Therefore you are a fan of a favorite player more than the team. Most fans here are fans of the entire team, not just one player, and their considered, rational posts demonstrate so. They understand that being a fan of TC and JC are not mutually exclusive. Now THOSE are cold hard facts. You should post on Todd Collins' blog since that's where your loyalties truly lie. Judas."

Judas??? Can you honestly read this post again and not see how hypocritical it is? TC has shocked everyone with his play and I must admit has made me a fan. Not only that but he has earned the starting position at this point in time. If JC plays better he should start next year. The bottom line is he hasn’t and yet some on the board think it would be an abomination if TC is given the chance to start next year. If he has all these flaws that are mentioned by JC supporters then clearly he will fizzle and JC will take over, but what if he continues to play this way. Wouldn’t most fans of “the entire team” want him in there?

[RocketCitySkins]

I think the better oline play is because TC gets rid of the ball quickly, so they don't have to block for 12 seconds, just 7 seconds.

When did Jason ever have 12 seconds to get rid of the ball. :yikes:

I've seen times he didn't even have 3 seconds to get rid of the ball. But change those numbers to 7 and 4 and I agree.

[bobzmuda]

Fair enough, but some of your posts in this thread have hardly been fair.

“ Hopefully TC cuts down on the turnovers. He was lucky the team bailed him out on his 2 fumbles and Dallas bailed him out on his interception. As FanSinceSonnyJ has pointed out before multiple turnovers from the QB position is unacceptable.”

I agree multiple turnovers are unacceptable but TC has had very few since he took over and a lot less than Jason.

I need to make a critical distinction here. I am not at all railing against TC. He's been great, and no one can dispute that.

Instead, I am poking many, many holes in the arguments of FanSinceSonnyJ and trying to get him to evaluate both QBs under consistent criteria. It's difficult when he refuses to hear any discussion of JC's turnovers whatsoever, but starts to make excuses for TC's turnovers.

He's been trying to incite many fans with phantom strawman arguments. I have shown how the exact arguments that he has used to criticize JC in a flippant, disparaging manner, he refuses to apply to TC.

“You keep changing your tune so that it fits your blind love of TC regardless of the situation - so much you have made it obvious you are merely a TC fan (perhaps Mrs. Collins herself?) and not a fan of the team.”

Do you really think anyone had blind love for TC when the season started? 106 QB rating will get the love flowing pretty quickly.

Look at the history of FanSinceSonnyJ's posts and you'll see that he's not just a TC fan as many of us are, as TC is a member of our favorite team. Instead, he goes out of his way to denegrate another member of our favorite team, as if he doesn't understand that you can praise one and criticize the other fairly and rationally, and that being pro-Collins and pro-Campbell are not mutually exclusive.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/search.php?do=finduser&u=70416

If you don't want to peruse his many posts, you can probably just look at a couple - since they usually follow the same pattern. They typically involve praising TC (no problems there) while at the same time going out of his way to slam JC even though it's not relevant since JC is out and will continue to be out and everyone acknowledges he should be out for the playoffs. He then trots out some statement about how someone is dumb for thinking JC should start over TC, even though no one has proposed it, before calling someone a JC-lover and not a fan of the team.

Just look at the tone of the thread titles he's used. Do they sound like they're written by someone who is more excited by Collins' play or is more excited by the ability to try to rile folks up?

- Looks like we just needed a QB change...

- With Collins we finally have hope!!! Big D up next!!

- Refreshing not to have QB turnovers!

- Does JC get "mentally lazy"?

- Jason Campbell = Turnover Machine

- JC's untimely int, fumble, errant throws sealed our fate.

If someone is going to be as inflammatory as FanSinceSonnyJ, he should be held accountable for what he says.

TC has shocked everyone with his play and I must admit has made me a fan. Not only that but he has earned the starting position at this point in time. If JC plays better he should start next year. The bottom line is he hasn’t and yet some on the board think it would be an abomination if TC is given the chance to start next year.

I would hope you would agree that those who think it would be an "abomination" if TC is merely given the chance to start next year would be in the very clear minority.

If he has all these flaws that are mentioned by JC supporters then clearly he will fizzle and JC will take over, but what if he continues to play this way. Wouldn’t most fans of “the entire team” want him in there?

Again the point must be made that statements made by FanSinceSonnyJ have been inconsistent. In particular he has pointed to flaws in JC's game that he used to slam Campbell, but refuses to acknowledge those same flaws in TC to the same degree. Or for further example, in earlier threads he blamed many losses on Gibbs for one reason or another. In his TC threads, however, he abandons that position altogether and slams Campbell as the reason for the losses.

Then, when some folks had the audacity to try and explain what they perceived was the situation with JC and turnovers or accuracy or whatever the issue, he would call them fans of JC and not true fans the team. If that's not inflammatory I don't know what is. I am simply trying to hold him to the same high standard he holds everyone else.

[SearchHorizon]

Just look at the tone of the thread titles he's used. Do they sound like they're written by someone who is more excited by Collins' play or is more excited by the ability to try to rile folks up?

- Looks like we just needed a QB change...

- With Collins we finally have hope!!! Big D up next!!

- Refreshing not to have QB turnovers!

- Does JC get "mentally lazy"?

- Jason Campbell = Turnover Machine

- JC's untimely int, fumble, errant throws sealed our fate.

If someone is going to be as inflammatory as FanSinceSonnyJ, he should be held accountable for what he says.

Are you thinking what I am thinking ...????

That FanSinceSonnyJ could be actually Todd Collins?

I kid, I kid ...

[hiswadeness]

my post from another thread..

We did'nt lose 7 games because of qb play, period.

GB?

NYG?

BILLS?

PHILLY?

We led in all 4 games Moss and droped passes cost us GB. And the other 3 we held nice leads but the defense crapped them away.

NE?

I'll give you Dallas and TB but he threw for over 300 yards each game, and the cowboy game he played outstanding its not his fault nobody covered TO..The TB game CP and Moss got us in a hole quick 19-0 and he still almost brung us back.

Lets be honest here we are playing better has a team. Defense has stepped up,running game,playaction is working.

We are holding leads now thats the biggest difference to me.

TC has played great and should finish this unless he stinks it up in the playoffs. But lets be honest he has'nt dealt with the injuries,drops and porious defense that JC did.

This whole team deserves credit not just TC and its nice to see healthy wr's getting seperation.

We have our QB of the future let him get healthy and we have a bright future. Ride TC till it ends this year. Thier is no need for 95% of the people on this board to poop on JC to promote TC. Just support both and be glad were winning and enjoy the ride.

My thoughts exactly!!

[eagleskins]

Jason Campbell=Ryan Leaf. Same intangibles, size, smarts.

[G1]

as for the "bonehead INTs"...in your relentless pursuit of spin...you neglect context: JC was bringing the team back..often with little time...due to mistakes others had made. TC hasn't been placed in that situation...in large part cuz the defense is carrying this team.

TC has the hot hand....you don't risk JC's future anyway (draw what inferences you want from that...:-)....).....so you play TC on this run. a run that is quite unique: a career back-up playing flawlessly; a defense dominating games and placing the offense in position to succeed; no speacial teams lapses (save for a dropped snap on a fieldgoal); a lot of luck (fumbles, ints, referee calls); a mudered player whose memory inspires almost mystical confidence and effort in the team overall..and certain jkey players specifically. If you all can't see the wider picture here...and what is really going on...then I'm sorry for ya. you're missing the real drama! the real storyline.

I find it deplorably depressing that the demand is play TC next season...rather than....raise the bar on JC so that the timing part of the game is down. You get TC + mobility + a deep ball with JC...in addition to not fouling up your drafts and roster management for years to come.

These are the most sensible comments on this depressing thread.

Something has happened to this entire team this last 6 weeks and I am enjoying the ride whoever is behind center. Collins play is better than Campbell's was, I see that, but I understand the reasons for it.

[mistertim]

Jason Campbell=Ryan Leaf. Same intangibles, size, smarts.

Did you just compare Campbell to the biggest bust in NFL history? A guy who, in 25 games, had 14 TDs and 36 INTs with a whopping overall QB rating of 50?

:doh: :doh:

[Guest Dave959]

Are we all forgetting JC didn't have a healthy #89 to throw to for a big chunk of the season? Not to mention many of his ints came at a point in the game when the team had fallen behind and everyone knew JC had to throw the ball?

[SearchHorizon]

Not to mention many of his ints came at a point in the game when the team had fallen behind and everyone knew JC had to throw the ball?

The question is not whether it is the QB's fault that we lost.

The question is whether the QB brought us back from a losing situation.

Did the QB make the required throw in the last waning moments of the game?

[FanSinceSonnyJ]

I need to make a critical distinction here. I am not at all railing against TC. He's been great, and no one can dispute that.

Instead, I am poking many, many holes in the arguments of FanSinceSonnyJ and trying to get him to evaluate both QBs under consistent criteria. It's difficult when he refuses to hear any discussion of JC's turnovers whatsoever, but starts to make excuses for TC's turnovers.

He's been trying to incite many fans with phantom strawman arguments. I have shown how the exact arguments that he has used to criticize JC in a flippant, disparaging manner, he refuses to apply to TC.

Look at the history of FanSinceSonnyJ's posts and you'll see that he's not just a TC fan as many of us are, as TC is a member of our favorite team. Instead, he goes out of his way to denegrate another member of our favorite team, as if he doesn't understand that you can praise one and criticize the other fairly and rationally, and that being pro-Collins and pro-Campbell are not mutually exclusive.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/search.php?do=finduser&u=70416

If you don't want to peruse his many posts, you can probably just look at a couple - since they usually follow the same pattern. They typically involve praising TC (no problems there) while at the same time going out of his way to slam JC even though it's not relevant since JC is out and will continue to be out and everyone acknowledges he should be out for the playoffs. He then trots out some statement about how someone is dumb for thinking JC should start over TC, even though no one has proposed it, before calling someone a JC-lover and not a fan of the team.

Just look at the tone of the thread titles he's used. Do they sound like they're written by someone who is more excited by Collins' play or is more excited by the ability to try to rile folks up?

- Looks like we just needed a QB change...

- With Collins we finally have hope!!! Big D up next!!

- Refreshing not to have QB turnovers!

- Does JC get "mentally lazy"?

- Jason Campbell = Turnover Machine

- JC's untimely int, fumble, errant throws sealed our fate.

If someone is going to be as inflammatory as FanSinceSonnyJ, he should be held accountable for what he says.

I would hope you would agree that those who think it would be an "abomination" if TC is merely given the chance to start next year would be in the very clear minority.

Again the point must be made that statements made by FanSinceSonnyJ have been inconsistent. In particular he has pointed to flaws in JC's game that he used to slam Campbell, but refuses to acknowledge those same flaws in TC to the same degree. Or for further example, in earlier threads he blamed many losses on Gibbs for one reason or another. In his TC threads, however, he abandons that position altogether and slams Campbell as the reason for the losses.

Then, when some folks had the audacity to try and explain what they perceived was the situation with JC and turnovers or accuracy or whatever the issue, he would call them fans of JC and not true fans the team. If that's not inflammatory I don't know what is. I am simply trying to hold him to the same high standard he holds everyone else.

Gee BobbyM, thanks for taking the time to research all of my posts. :laugh:

Sure I've complained about JC and make no apologies for doing so. He played mediocre for the most part and all my posts came after losses where he had his regular untimely miscues.

Must you be reminded, yet again, that JC had a 4 game losing streak going? Oh course the losses had nothing to do with him, given the goofy logic of you JC lovers. As I've repeatedly said, it is not all on him, but his inability to get it done during and at the end of games cost us dearly. He could not finish drives for TD's and therefore our games came down to last second thrillers in which he failed to get it done.

You claim to be impartial on the QB position but go out of your way to criticize TC and name call posters who are thrilled with his play. My guess you is that you are just a closet JC fan. Nothing wrong with that, but quit pretending to be otherwise.

Unlike you, many of us are not ready to annoit JC as the next Tom Brady until he actually shows us something. If he does, I'll be on board and will be one of his biggest fans. To date, he has shown me nothing to prove he will one day be great. Sure he has talent and a strong arm, but he has been unable to translate that into good decisions, TD's and ultimately wins. On the other hand, an elderly career backup without all the talent JC has, is showing us just how important great reads, game management skills, and accurate passing ability is.

Why you keep making this some sort of arguement about me? One can only surmise it is only because your feathers have been ruffled as to my open honesty regarding the play of JC and TC this season. Yeah, sure, you're impartial when it comes to the starting QB position. :laugh:

[Fat Stupid Loser]

someone who is finally not against JC

thank you

I'm not against him. I'm hoping we can get a 4th rounder in the draft for him this offseason. :cool:

[MikeBass]

Are we all forgetting JC didn't have a healthy #89 to throw to for a big chunk of the season? Not to mention many of his ints came at a point in the game when the team had fallen behind and everyone knew JC had to throw the ball?

"#89" and JC have never been the dynamic duo healthy or not. I think 8-9 does better with QB's who put a little air up under the ball where he can out-adjust DB's as opposed to having a bullet coming at him right out of his break.

[bobzmuda]

Gee BobbyM, thanks for taking the time to research all of my posts. :laugh:

It's pretty easy. You just click on the username and it gives them to you.

You should probably look into it so you no longer continue to make unsupported claims.

Sure I've complained about JC and make no apologies for doing so. He played mediocre for the most part and all my posts came after losses where he had his regular untimely miscues.

Must you be reminded, yet again, that JC had a 4 game losing streak going? Oh course the losses had nothing to do with him, given the goofy logic of you JC lovers.

I am still waiting for you to SHOW ME where I have stated or implied those losses had "nothing to do with" Campbell. You can't because I never did.

Why do you choose to repeatedly, at best, mischaracterize what I have said, and at worst flat out lie?

I am still waiting. Show me.

As I've repeatedly said, it is not all on him, but his inability to get it done during and at the end of games cost us dearly. He could not finish drives for TD's and therefore our games came down to last second thrillers in which he failed to get it done.

That sounds reasonable enough, but it's not what you've repeatedly implied.

For heavens' sake, just look at what you chose to name of this thread "Looks like we just needed a QB change...".

You claim to be impartial on the QB position but go out of your way to criticize TC and name call posters who are thrilled with his play. My guess you is that you are just a closet JC fan. Nothing wrong with that, but quit pretending to be otherwise.

I am quite impartial on the QB position, because unlike you, I use the same criteria to evaluate QBs and don't employ a double-standard in favor of one QB or another, nor change my positions that earlier losses were Gibbs' fault to Campbell's fault to further your anti-JC agenda. When I point out the flaws in your evaluations you either fail to address them, excuse whatever TC shortcomings there are (which you, for some reason, refuse to entertain for those supporting JC to do), or just go off on some non-existent rant about how everyone wants Jason Campbell to start when no one is arguing that.

You flip-flop more than a fish out of water.

Unlike you, many of us are not ready to annoit JC as the next Tom Brady until he actually shows us something.

Show me where I imply I am ready to "annoit" JC as the next Tom Brady. That's a very bold statement and if you can't show me, then you're a liar.

If nothing else, answer this.

WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO PUT WORDS IN THE MOUTHS OF PEOPLE?

People would like to have discussions, but it's impossible if you consistently misrepresent and lie about what folks have said and only serves to incite impassioned posting with little reasoning or squash real discussion altogether.

Why you keep making this some sort of arguement about me? One can only surmise it is only because your feathers have been ruffled as to my open honesty regarding the play of JC and TC this season. Yeah, sure, you're impartial when it comes to the starting QB position. :laugh:

The only reason I have a bone with you is because it is posters like you that are making this site a worse place with your misrepresentations, inconsistencies and tendencies to incite inflammatory posts instead of inciting real discussion on an interesting issue. Consider my responses a kind of last gasp to keep unchecked, inflammatory nonsense out of this community that I really enjoy at times. Maybe it's a lost cause.

As to whether I'm impartial to the starting QB position, you're more than welcome to show me where I have said JC should be starting over TC for the rest of the season, regardless of whether JC is healthy or not. It's simply, TC is playing well and deserves to start the remainder of this season's games. I don't know how I could be any more impartial to the QB position.

Now, if you can't understand that I am NOT impartial to your anti-JC agenda, that would start to explain why you keep trying to question the fanhood of everyone that is trying to actually discuss the QB position. I'm embarrassed if you can't understand how I can hold you to evaluate TC on the same criteria you've used to evaluate JC to show your anti-JC agenda, and also support TC at the same time.

[mistertim]

I'm not against him. I'm hoping we can get a 4th rounder in the draft for him this offseason. :cool:

:doh:

For my own sanity I'll just assume that is a joke.

[FanSinceSonnyJ]

It's pretty easy. You just click on the username and it gives them to you.

You should probably look into it so you no longer continue to make unsupported claims.

I am still waiting for you to SHOW ME where I have stated or implied those losses had "nothing to do with" Campbell. You can't because I never did.

Why do you choose to repeatedly, at best, mischaracterize what I have said, and at worst flat out lie?

I am still waiting. Show me.

That sounds reasonable enough, but it's not what you've repeatedly implied.

For heavens' sake, just look at what you chose to name of this thread "Looks like we just needed a QB change...".

I am quite impartial on the QB position, because unlike you, I use the same criteria to evaluate QBs and don't employ a double-standard in favor of one QB or another, nor change my positions that earlier losses were Gibbs' fault to Campbell's fault to further your anti-JC agenda. When I point out the flaws in your evaluations you either fail to address them, excuse whatever TC shortcomings there are (which you, for some reason, refuse to entertain for those supporting JC to do), or just go off on some non-existent rant about how everyone wants Jason Campbell to start when no one is arguing that.

You flip-flop more than a fish out of water.

Show me where I imply I am ready to "annoit" JC as the next Tom Brady. That's a very bold statement and if you can't show me, then you're a liar.

If nothing else, answer this.

WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO PUT WORDS IN THE MOUTHS OF PEOPLE?

People would like to have discussions, but it's impossible if you consistently misrepresent and lie about what folks have said and only serves to incite impassioned posting with little reasoning or squash real discussion altogether.

The only reason I have a bone with you is because it is posters like you that are making this site a worse place with your misrepresentations, inconsistencies and tendencies to incite inflammatory posts instead of inciting real discussion on an interesting issue. Consider my responses a kind of last gasp to keep unchecked, inflammatory nonsense out of this community that I really enjoy at times. Maybe it's a lost cause.

As to whether I'm impartial to the starting QB position, you're more than welcome to show me where I have said JC should be starting over TC for the rest of the season, regardless of whether JC is healthy or not. It's simply, TC is playing well and deserves to start the remainder of this season's games. I don't know how I could be any more impartial to the QB position.

Now, if you can't understand that I am NOT impartial to your anti-JC agenda, that would start to explain why you keep trying to question the fanhood of everyone that is trying to actually discuss the QB position. I'm embarrassed if you can't understand how I can hold you to evaluate TC on the same criteria you've used to evaluate JC to show your anti-JC agenda, and also support TC at the same time.

I tire of trying to explain my opinions to you. I have neither the time nor energy to go throw up point by point rebuttals to your warped logic and super sensitive mindset. My comments are quite clear and beyond dispute. You have shown on this thread alone where your loyalties lie. No big deal, I just have begged to differ and will continue to draw out differences of JC and TC when appropriate, just as you will continue to defend JC when you feel appropriate. Your back handed insults are rude and pompous. Must one agree with your every opinion in order to not face your scorn? :laugh: Fricken pathetic.

[FanSinceSonnyJ]

"#89" and JC have never been the dynamic duo healthy or not. I think 8-9 does better with QB's who put a little air up under the ball where he can out-adjust DB's as opposed to having a bullet coming at him right out of his break.

Exactly. The supposedly "weak armed" Collins doesn't seem to have a problem getting # 89 and all other WR's into the game.

Sound logic on your part.

[bobzmuda]

I tire of trying to explain my opinions to you. I have neither the time nor energy to go throw up point by point rebuttals to your warped logic and super sensitive mindset.

You also don't have the capacity to rebut my points because you simply can't. You're wrong on many, many, many facts.

Please note that you can't be wrong in our shared belief that TC should remain the starter the rest of the season - as that is an opinion. And like all opinions here, we should encourage dissenting discussion of those opinions.

You ARE wrong when you out and out lie to try and make the point that TC should remained the starter. And that is the sort of dishonesty that brings down discussion.

It's simply not acceptable to say you don't have the time nor energy to go through point by point rebuttals when I call you out on a flat-out lie saying "Unlike you, many of us are not ready to annoit JC as the next Tom Brady until he actually shows us something." And that's just in the past day. Hopefully you realize that any valid arguments you may make are undercut by your well-earned reputation of misrepresenting what people have said. If you're truly interested in advancing your ideas you'll be extremely careful with attribution.

It's not too late to repair your reputation.

My comments are quite clear and beyond dispute.

I've shown to you in the past where you have disputed your own comments, but you refuse to address them. You only continue to conclude, without backing, that your comments are beyond dispute.

Anybody can make a conclusion and then ignore all prior, contradictory evidence like you have. That's certainly not beyond dispute.

You have shown on this thread alone where your loyalties lie.

My loyalties lie with this board and this team. I think it's clear you are more interested in dividing folks and quashing meaningful discussion.

No big deal, I just have begged to differ and will continue to draw out differences of JC and TC when appropriate, just as you will continue to defend JC when you feel appropriate.

No big deal, I just have begged to differ and will continue to show you evaluate JC and TC differently, just as you will rage on your anti-JC agenda and defend TC with the same kind of arguments you refuse to permit to those who choose to defend JC. Hypocrisy.

Your back handed insults are rude and pompous. Must one agree with your every opinion in order to not face your scorn? :laugh: Fricken pathetic.

I think I have enough of a track record here to say that I have disagreed with many folks, but we have been able to keep it civil because we're in discussions about the ideas. You really don't want to engage in discussion so much as you want to misrepresent statements made by others and engage in strawman arguments to make your point. What's terribly sad is that no really disagrees with your main conclusion that TC should continue to start. And when folks want to engage in discussion on what happened during the season you dismiss it as "JC defending" and call their fanhood into question.

There's only one explanation in my mind why you would continue to lie or misrepresent what folks have said, continue to belabor a conclusion to which no one disagrees, and continue to engage in strawman arguments, and it's not a nice one.

[mistertim]

Exactly. The supposedly "weak armed" Collins doesn't seem to have a problem getting # 89 and all other WR's into the game.

Sound logic on your part.

You seem to like saying that Campbell couldn't spread the ball around but now that Collins is in he is magically getting it done. Problem is that you don't seem to really do much research. Looking back over every game log I averaged the number of different players JC threw per game and TC threw to per game. The difference? .5

That's right, JC's average was completions to 6 different players per game and TC's is 6.5, and that is giving ALL of the Chicago stats to TC since he played a little more than JC did. Research is your friend.