Jason and the Scheme

[campbell101]

This thread is simpy an extension of all the homer posts which make one more excuse for Jason Campbell. I have heard them all. He is young. He is inexperienced. His receivers are hurt. The offensive line isn't doing their job. The running backs aren't running. The coaches aren't calling the right plays. The Redskins have played the best defenses. The refs have been prejudice and bias and made bad calls, he's been injured, etc. etc.

it gets old. At some point homers have to take off the rose colored glasses and start looking at statistics and facts.

Todd Collins took the same players, the same scheme...and played the same team...and put up 24 points. Campbell put up ZERO. There will never be a better comparison than what we saw the other night. There are just no excuses left for Campbell. He is never going to be a great QB just because he has a strong arm.

You people who are naive and think that Campbell is better than Colllins based on arm strentgth never watched Joe Montana. Collins has the same arm strength as Montana and Trent Green. Montana was a pro bowl QB and won championships and Trent Green ran the #1 offense in the NFL for 5 years with this system. The FACT is that arm strength has nothing to do with Campbells failure or success...its all about reading NFL defenses and making quick decisions, something that Jason does NOT do very well. Just because joe Gibbs makes bad decisions and has decided that CAmpbell is the QB of the future, does not make it so. Gibbs makes a LOT of bad decisions and this is one of them.

I also believe that Colllins will perform very well over the next few weeks and if the Skins win out, this will really prove that Campbell has been underperforming with this team and everybody in the media, the experts, and perhaps even some of you will begin to see the light, expecially if Campbell is handed the job again next season and we see the turnover machine continue making the same mistakes and missing wide open receivers as he has done.

[skinfan2k]

This thread is simpy an extension of all the homer posts which make one more excuse for Jason Campbell. I have heard them all. He is young. He is inexperienced. His receivers are hurt. The offensive line isn't doing their job. The running backs aren't running. The coaches aren't calling the right plays. The Redskins have played the best defenses. The refs have been prejudice and bias and made bad calls, he's been injured, etc. etc.

Todd Collins took the same players, the same scheme...and played the same team...and put up 24 points. Campbell put up ZERO. There will never be a better comparison than what we saw the other night. There are just

won championships and Trent Green ran the #1 offense in the NFL for 5 years with this system. The FACT is that arm strength has nothing to do with Campbells failure or success...its all about reading NFL defenses and making quick decisions, something that Jason does NOT do very well. Just because joe Gibbs makes bad decisions and has decided that CAmpbell is the QB of the future, does not make it so. Gibbs makes a LOT of bad decisions and this is one of them.

I also believe that Colllins will perform very well over the next few weeks and if the Skins win out, this will really prove that Campbell has been underperforming with this team and everybody in the media, the experts, and perhaps even some of you will begin to see the light, expecially if Campbell is handed the job again next season and we see the turnover machine continue making the same mistakes and missing wide open receivers as he has done.

I am assuming you never seen Trent Green in action. Collins took advantage of the moment and the bears were unprepared. I am sure you remember how this has happened so many times this year which includes Vinny, Sage Rosenfuls coming in off the bench and throwing for 300, and other situations.

I love how you base your stuff on 1 game. It just shows your ignorance!:doh:

[theTruthTeller]

McNair was old and VY was the new king in town. They made the right decision there.

Green- Dumb Mistake by Washington and Vermeil Brought Green over from KC.

Brees- Bind with Rivers and had to let him go

Hasselback- Relationship with Holmgren and he drafted him

The point is that there is no "best" way to get a franchise QB. The draft is certainly not the only way. Here are the first day QB draft choices from 2000-2003. The numbers in parenthesis indicate the round and overall pick # of the player. All of these players should be in their prime now.

2000

Chad Pennington (1-18)

Giovanni Carmazzi (3-65)

Chris Redman (3-75)

2001

Michael Vick (1-1)

Drew Brees (2-1)

Quincy Carter (2-53)

Marques Tuiasosopo (2-59)

2002

David Carr (1-1)

Joey Harrington (1-3)

Patrick Ramsey (1-32)

Josh McCown (3-81)

2003

Carson Palmer (1-1)

Byron Leftwich (1-7)

Kyle Boller (1-19)

Rex Grossman (1-22)

David Ragone (3-88)

Chris Simms (3-97)

Of these players (leaving Vick out because his value as a quarterback is diminished by other factors), the following could be traded today for a 2008 draft pick of similar value to their original pick: Brees, Palmer. Two out of 16. Not a good hitting percentage.

[Oldfan]

This thread is simpy an extension of all the homer posts which make one more excuse for Jason Campbell.

:laugh: This is beautiful. My thread is getting bashed by the Campbell haters and the Campbell lovers.

[redskinsfan85]

This thread is simpy an extension of all the homer posts which make one more excuse for Jason Campbell. I have heard them all. He is young. He is inexperienced. His receivers are hurt. The offensive line isn't doing their job. The running backs aren't running. The coaches aren't calling the right plays. The Redskins have played the best defenses. The refs have been prejudice and bias and made bad calls, he's been injured, etc. etc.

it gets old. At some point homers have to take off the rose colored glasses and start looking at statistics and facts.

Todd Collins took the same players, the same scheme...and played the same team...and put up 24 points. Campbell put up ZERO. There will never be a better comparison than what we saw the other night. There are just no excuses left for Campbell. He is never going to be a great QB just because he has a strong arm.

You people who are naive and think that Campbell is better than Colllins based on arm strentgth never watched Joe Montana. Collins has the same arm strength as Montana and Trent Green. Montana was a pro bowl QB and won championships and Trent Green ran the #1 offense in the NFL for 5 years with this system. The FACT is that arm strength has nothing to do with Campbells failure or success...its all about reading NFL defenses and making quick decisions, something that Jason does NOT do very well. Just because joe Gibbs makes bad decisions and has decided that CAmpbell is the QB of the future, does not make it so. Gibbs makes a LOT of bad decisions and this is one of them.

I also believe that Colllins will perform very well over the next few weeks and if the Skins win out, this will really prove that Campbell has been underperforming with this team and everybody in the media, the experts, and perhaps even some of you will begin to see the light, expecially if Campbell is handed the job again next season and we see the turnover machine continue making the same mistakes and missing wide open receivers as he has done.

Come on! You seriously can't be that delusional.

He put up 0 points? O RLY?

He led us on two scoring drives. It's not his fault the kicker missed both times. Thats 6 points for us. NOT ZERO.

What did Collins do? Fumble? Get help from a pick that was returned to our 22? Get help from CP running 60 yards on a small pass? Or the FG the kicker finally made? The only thing impressive Collins did was that throw to Betts and that could have easily been picked off. His other throw to Yoder was nearly intercepted but Yoder did great hanging on to the ball.

Campbell was just as efficient. He didn't fumble and lose the ball like Collins did on his 1st possesion.

You should take off the hater glasses and see Campbell for what he is. A first year STARTER. How you can say that doesn't matter is beyond me. What do you mean it doesn't matter? What do you mean he's not young? Where do you get all this from?

Anyone with a single once of football knowledege knows QBs take time to develop. That's a KNOWN fact.

Still love the fact you're blaming Campbell for not putting up points when the kicker missed both attempts. Come on...get real man.

Campbell has a VERY bright future. Saying he's going to continue to make the same mistakes is the most ignorant thing ever.

[Oldfan]

For those who are arguing that Collins nine years of experience gives him a decided advantage over Campbell's two, let me say this:

If you're right, then we need to scrap Al's scheme at once because an NFL team cannot afford to invest that much time before a QB can be evaluated. A simpler system is needed.

[armada58]

:laugh: This is beautiful. My thread is getting bashed by the Campbell haters and the Campbell lovers.

The Campbell Debate has turned into a no-win scenario on this board.

.......Defend him and you're being a blind homer.

.......Critisize him and you're being an inpatient, reactionary hater.

I, for one, really like Campbell.

[campbell101]

I am assuming you never seen Trent Green in action. Collins took advantage of the moment and the bears were unprepared. I am sure you remember how this has happened so many times this year which includes Vinny, Sage Rosenfuls coming in off the bench and throwing for 300, and other situations.

I love how you base your stuff on 1 game. It just shows your ignorance!:doh:

WHAT?

I have watched campbell all year long. Not one game. He misses open receivers...not in one game but all year long. Campbell can't find receivers and holds the ball and holds the ball...in fact THAT is what got him injured the other night. NOT ONE GAME. All season long. Where did you get 1 game from. Your lack of insight is what pinpoints you as a homer. Rose colored glasses..."don't mess with my ignorance" mentality. I guess ignorance is bliss for you.

You seem to think that Todd Collins only threw ACCURATE passes because the Bears did not not who he was. WHAT? You seem to think that Collins found the open receiver faster than Campbell because the Bears couldn't recognize who Todd Collins is? What?

It is what it is. Collins performance is what it is. And by the way...so is Jason CAmpbells. By the way, email me when Cambpell starts hitting open receivers and winning games, or even conducts one single game winning drive.

[skinfan2k]

If you're right, then we need to scrap Al's scheme at once because an NFL team cannot afford to invest that much time before a QB can be evaluated. A simpler system is needed.

This is what puzzled me when Gibbs brought him on. Brunell was the starter solely because he lead us to the playoffs and was in a situation like Warner. I simply dont understand how they asked Brunell to understand an offense that he says takes 3 years to take off and 1 full year to understand. They had a Qb on the sidelines waiting to get his chance and he was getting accustomed to your system but then you want him to learn something else.

[skinfan2k]

You seem to think that Todd Collins only threw ACCURATE passes because the Bears did not not who he was. WHAT? You seem to think that Collins found the open receiver faster than Campbell because the Bears couldn't recognize who Todd Collins is? What?

You basing your assessment on Collins after 1 game is laughable. Besides that 1 pass to Betts, he was good, not great. Youre the one who is expecting too much out of Campbell.

[chipwhich]

Oldfan, rewatch the game. Did you see the pass protection Collins got in the second half, less the first play where he fumbled? They changed something up in the protection scheme. Collins can look like Tom Brady with all that time.

Plus I remember a young Jay Schroeder wowing us for a half. Who in their right mind sets down to make a comparison on one relief performance? There half been a number of one half wonders in NFL history.

[armada58]

WHAT?

I have watched campbell all year long. Not one game. He misses open receivers...not in one game but all year long. Campbell can't find receivers and holds the ball and holds the ball...in fact THAT is what got him injured the other night. NOT ONE GAME. All season long. Where did you get 1 game from. Your lack of insight is what pinpoints you as a homer. Rose colored glasses..."don't mess with my ignorance" mentality. I guess ignorance is bliss for you.

You seem to think that Todd Collins only threw ACCURATE passes because the Bears did not not who he was. WHAT? You seem to think that Collins found the open receiver faster than Campbell because the Bears couldn't recognize who Todd Collins is? What?

It is what it is. Collins performance is what it is. And by the way...so is Jason CAmpbells. By the way, email me when Cambpell starts hitting open receivers and winning games, or even conducts one single game winning drive.

Unfortunately, I can't jump in my time machine and send you e-mails following his overtime, game-winning drives against Miami & The Jets.

I guess you're VERY unhappy with his 60+% Completion Percentage. HOW DARE HE BE SO INACCURATE!! CUT HIM NOW!!

[SkinsNumberOne]

You're right - it was the same personnel that they were working with.

It was not the same scheme. Vermeil's comments are on target. This is an issue with Campbell's growth. We are playing to win this season, but the reason we go conservative is because there is still a lack of confidence in Campbell at times. They probably know, from practice, a bit more than we do. We have seen glimpses of why they're excited (some big yardage JC games the past few weeks) and also why they pull the reins (some losses attributed to his TOs). He gets hit, he fumbles. He throws picks. If the great throws were there, but less the TOs, we'd probably win those games. The other thing is, though, in all of those games, we still didn't see the same offense TC ran.

I am not necessarily saying that it was an extremely different scheme TC ran. I am saying it was probably different - the reins were never pulled - but also, TC's familiarity made it look different. It made the plays come out a lot crisper. I wonder how many young QBs just grasp Saunders' system. I would doubt it's many. I think Vermeil's comments are right.

EDIT: Also, TC's passes looking like a lame duck make me think we're going to be looking at some INTs in the coming weeks. It really depends on how good he is at faking out the defense and how open our receivers get. But I don't expect him throwing into traffic is going to work well at all. TC will have to make EVERY throw JC didn't see in order to have a chance to do better than JC. In other words, there were occasional open players who JC didn't see or missed; TC makes those, then it can make up for his lack of zip perhaps. Proof coming up against a hard Giants D. I think Giants pressure will make TC look very bad and this discussion comes to an abrupt halt, but we'll see - hard to predict when you have so little data.

[redskinsfan85]

Unfortunately, I can't jump in my time machine and send you e-mails following his overtime, game-winning drives against Miami & The Jets.

I guess you're VERY unhappy with his 60+% Completion Percentage. HOW DARE HE BE SO INACCURATE!! CUT HIM NOW!!

LOL.

Spot on.

HOW DARE HE NOT PERFORM LIKE BRADY!!

[Isifhan]

Two years is ample time to learn even the most complex system, especially for QBs who have been well coached in college and the pros.

I'm curious, did you ever play football? Because with comments like this it doesn't sound like it.

Understanding an offensive system, and being able to read and react to coverages and defensive schemes are two different things even though they go hand in hand. Terry Bradshaw just said on NFL pregame that after two years he had a hard time reading coverages and it takes a long time to do get comfortable doing that. Campbell has had a full season and two games of live starting experience. Campbell can run Al's system, all of Campbell's mistakes have come in reading defenses. As he gets experiences, sees more things, he'll learn to take advantage.

[theTruthTeller]

Every time this topic comes up, I ask the same question, but no one ever wants to answer. What is the realistic alternative to starting JC next year?

A draft choice won't be ready.

A FA will be flawed, and probably expensive. If JC were benched for a FA, that's the end of his career, so the FA would need to be relatively young.

The Skins have nothing to trade without creating a hole somewhere else and taking a cap hit.

There are no young backups on the team.

JC will be the starter next year. He probably won't be one of the top five quarterbacks and he probably won't be one of the bottom five either. Just sit back and enjoy.

[Oldfan]

Oldfan, rewatch the game. Did you see the pass protection Collins got in the second half, less the first play where he fumbled? They changed something up in the protection scheme. Collins can look like Tom Brady with all that time.

Plus I remember a young Jay Schroeder wowing us for a half. Who in their right mind sets down to make a comparison on one relief performance? There half been a number of one half wonders in NFL history.

What I noticed mostly was that open receivers were being hit in stride and that the backs were very involved in the passing game (ten passes for 112 yards and a TD for Portis and Betts). That's the kind of offense I expected when Saunders came here.

[JWB]

We hopefully will have 3 games (barring injury)to see what TC can do. We can see if he can go through the progression and hit the open receiver; how he handles blitzes, whether he can throw the ball away when necessary, if he can keep his secondary receivers in the game, will the receivers hold on to his throws and how he manages the 2 minute drill. He has had 9 years to get ready. Personally, I don't care who the QB is as long as we win. Will there be changes in how we attack our opponents for a full game? We will see in Collin's first start next week. The game with the giants will be the test. We hardly ever play well against them in the Meadowlands. I say let's band together around the guy and get into the paloffs!

[LilSkinnette]

Every QB not named Brady or Romo sits to pee took about 2 to 3 years to start being good. Give it time people, Todd Collins has been in this offense for seven years of course he knows it better then Campbell.

So true!

[JWB]

What I noticed mostly was that open receivers were being hit in stride and that the backs were very involved in the passing game (ten passes for 112 yards and a TD for Portis and Betts). That's the kind of offense I expected when Saunders came here.

This is what I expected when the Ol Ball Coach came to town>

[.Guy.]

LOL.

One huge pass to Portis. Take that away and it's 9 passes for 50 yards.

AMAZING.

Collins. 2 scoring drives. Campbell. 2 scoring drives.

The difference? Suisham missed both when Campbell was playing and made his only one when Collins was playing.

Campbell was pretty good. 10/16 100 yards. 2 big drops. No fumbles. 2 missed fgs. And he was rushed pretty much everytime.

[DieselPwr44]

" But let's don't get premature here in our evaluation of this whole thing. I've said all along, and that is...It's very easy to come off the bench and play the game. It's easy when somebody got hurt or was playing badly because you don't have anything to lose and can let it hang out and go after it."

- Sonny Jurgensen

[Oldfan]

Every time this topic comes up, I ask the same question, but no one ever wants to answer. What is the realistic alternative to starting JC next year?

Perhaps you should ask someone who believes that Campbell shouldn't start next year.

Just for argument's sake, though, let's set up a scenario to answer your question.

In the next three games, the Redskins offense averages 35 points per game causing everyone at Redskin park to feel good about Al's offense without Jason Campbell. My first thought is a trade for Chad Pennington who is rumored to be on the trading block. Like Collins, a weak arm but very accurate and capable of reading defenses. He's a grade B QB, but he could run the system well and the price shouldn't be more than a second day draft choice.

[2006Skins]

Perhaps you should ask someone who believes that Campbell shouldn't start next year.

Just for argument's sake, though, let's set up a scenario to answer your question.

In the next three games, the Redskins offense averages 35 points per game causing everyone at Redskin park to feel good about Al's offense without Jason Campbell. My first thought is a trade for Chad Pennington who is rumored to be on the trading block. Like Collins, a weak arm but very accurate and capable of reading defenses. He's a grade B QB, but he could run the system well and the price shouldn't be more than a second day draft choice.

We then run into the same problem with a qb coming into a new complex offense. We then have to wait another year or 2 for the skins to be decent on offense because this is not your average offense. This takes time for everyone to adjust to. If you want to do this why don't the skins stick with TC or better yet put Brunell back in

[DieselPwr44]

My first thought is a trade for Chad Pennington who is rumored to be on the trading block.

While were at it, Shane Matthews and Danny Wuerffel are still available.....