Oldfan Posted December 9, 2007 Author Share Posted December 9, 2007 OF, what's your take on the play-calling and exactly who is charge? I agree with Riggin's assertion that Joe gave Al total and complete control on the play's called Thurday since he is so familiar with Todd. I waxed on about that in this thread. The learning curve for Jason is apparent still. He must work on his delivery, protecting the ball and getting the ball out much faster of course, which is obvious. I thought perhaps his patience was a virtue in that regard because it would allow the called play to develop fully, but maybe that's not appropriate for Al's scheme. I don't know. I certainly have not given up on Jason by a longshot though. I think it's critical for him and the team that Al remain on as OC and work with him. We have to stay with Jason, but if Al stays, I suspect Al will need to rethink his scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 We have to stay with Jason, but if Al stays, I suspect Al will need to rethink his scheme. Its the coaches who need to put their players in winnable situations and not be so arrogant on their system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskins59 Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 Then lets have fun wasting another 3-4 years finding a franchise QB.. I am tired of going after retreads, and the rookie process yet again. Gibbs is not starting a rookie QB ever and not going out on his 2nd tenure developing another QB. Vermeil described Saunders a good solider and he will do what he is asked. No, I don't think we need to start another rookie QB. We could get a veteran to play for us. Remember, Trent Green had been in the league for years before he went to Kansas City. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 No, I don't think we need to start another rookie QB. We could get a veteran to play for us. Remember, Trent Green had been in the league for years before he went to Kansas City. There are a few cases like this Drew Brees and Trent, but ultimately you find your franchise QB through the draft. Remeber it was the QBs that the redskins let go, Rich Gannon, Trent Green, Brad Johnson and others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 9, 2007 Author Share Posted December 9, 2007 Well even Vermeil said that they aren't expanding the playbok for him, but everyone on the team knows the entire playbook including Campbell. It just that they dont run it in practice or in game situation when called upon you need to know the plays I seriously doubt that they run plays in the game that aren't practiced during the week. I think Al would ideally like to run a different game plan every week, but there is a plan each week with limited volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chump Bailey Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 I waxed on about that in this thread. Thanks and good stuff OF - agree with your take 100%. I must have missed this thread somehow... We have to stay with Jason, but if Al stays, I suspect Al will need to rethink his scheme. It's certainly looking that way after Todd's performance. The Giant's game will be a great test for both Todd and Al. This is the perfect opportunity for Al's scheme to be on display, and perhaps be a good indicator to measure against for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 9, 2007 Author Share Posted December 9, 2007 I don't think we should find a new offensive coordinator just because Jason Campbell can't execute Al Saunders' complex offense. I say let Al Saunders decide who he wants to run this offense. If he wants to bring a different QB to this system, so be it. If he feels like JC can get it done, so be it. Al Saunders has been a success everywhere he goes, so why handicap his offense by not letting him do it his way? Jason Campbell is Joe Gibbs' QB. Saunders probably doesn't want JC to be his QB--I can't read his mind. Letting Saunders go would be a big mistake. Changing the scheme doesn't cost us more in draft picks or salary cap. EDIT: However, as I said earlier, if Collins puts up big numbers in the final three games, your position comes into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskins59 Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 Changing the scheme doesn't cost us more in draft picks or salary cap. If our QB has a hard time running Al Saunders' system, what does that tell you about our QB? It may just be that Saunders' offense takes a while to grasp. Who knows, maybe JC will look like Peyton Manning next year? There are some things JC can improve on. I am pretty sure Saunders will address those problems in the offseason. A QB should be comfortable in all system/schemes. If he isn't, it just means the QB has limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaimeDeCurry Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 EDIT: However, as I said earlier, if Collins puts up big numbers in the final three games, your position comes into play. I'm not so sure that's true. Collins was brought here with Saunders specifically to help coach the system. He's been working with Saunders for 9 years. Last year he was the #2 all season because if our starter got hurt, they needed someone who could go in and execute the offense perfectly. Collins' experience with the system is what won us the Bears game, not his phenomenal quarterbacking ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 9, 2007 Author Share Posted December 9, 2007 If our QB has a hard time running Al Saunders' system, what does that tell you about our QB? It may just be that Saunders' offense takes a while to grasp. Who knows, maybe JC will look like Peyton Manning next year? There are some things JC can improve on. I am pretty sure Saunders will address those problems in the offseason. A QB should be comfortable in all system/schemes. If he isn't, it just means the QB has limitations. The only difficulty about Al's scheme, as I understand it, is the volume. But, the difference between Collins and Campbell can't be explained by volume. There was a marked difference in the execution of the same plays that the team practiced during the week. All QBs have limitations. Bill Walsh created his West Coast offense specifically for Virgil Carter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 I'm not so sure that's true. Collins was brought here with Saunders specifically to help coach the system. He's been working with Saunders for 9 years. Last year he was the #2 all season because if our starter got hurt, they needed someone who could go in and execute the offense perfectly. Collins' experience with the system is what won us the Bears game, not his phenomenal quarterbacking ability. If Gibbs truly believes in JC can be our franchise qb, then let him play and have his growing pains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskins59 Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 The only difficulty about Al's scheme, as I understand it, is the volume. But, the difference between Collins and Campbell can't be explained by volume. There was a marked difference in the execution of the same plays that the team practiced during the week.All QBs have limitations. Bill Walsh created his West Coast offense specifically for Virgil Carter. Yes, Al's playbook is huge, and I do believe the difference can easily be explained by volume. In Kansas, what Green had to do was prepare 90-100 different plays. They didn't practice all of it actually. It takes a while to grasp all his schemes. When Al came to DC, they were saying that it would take a year to grasp his scheme. Saunders himself said that in Kansas, Collins was the guy who learned Saunders' system the fastest. Looks to me like a QB has to be intellectually smart to run his offense. It requires a lot of preparation. I feel that they're definitely handicapping JC because he still doesn't grasp Saunders' offense. Perhaps Saunders trusts Collins so much that he decided to run plays they didn't prepare for? Who knows? If I had to guess, Campbell will be better next year. The playbook is just too huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theTruthTeller Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 There are a few cases like this Drew Brees and Trent, but ultimately you find your franchise QB through the draft. Remeber it was the QBs that the redskins let go, Rich Gannon, Trent Green, Brad Johnson and others The QB's from last year's playoff teams were: chargers - rivers high draft choice ravens - McNair free agent from Tenn colts - Manning high draft choice patriots - Brady low draft choice jets - pennington high draft choice chiefs - green/huard trade/FA bears - grossman high draft choice saints - Brees FA eagles - mcnabb high draft choice seahawks - hasselback trade cowboys - Romo sits to pee UDFA giants - manning high draft choice High draft choices: P.Manning, Pennington, Grossman, McNabb, E. Manning Low draft choices/UDFA: Brady, Romo sits to pee Trade/FA: McNair, Green/Huard, Brees, Hasselback Top 10 QB's (by rating) this year: Brady - low draft choice Romo sits to pee - UDFA Garrard - low draft choice Roethlisberger - high draft choice Favre - trade Garcia - FA P. Manning - high draft choice Warner - FA Kitna - FA Hasselback - trade It seems that there are a lot of ways to get a QB, and there is no overwhelming right way to do so. Lots of Qbs drafted on the first day have gone on to be unspectacular, as have some high dollar free agents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 9, 2007 Author Share Posted December 9, 2007 I'm not so sure that's true. Collins was brought here with Saunders specifically to help coach the system. He's been working with Saunders for 9 years. Last year he was the #2 all season because if our starter got hurt, they needed someone who could go in and execute the offense perfectly. Collins' experience with the system is what won us the Bears game, not his phenomenal quarterbacking ability. Who said it was his phenomenal ability? Let's isolate one play, the TD pass to Betts. Can we say that nine years of experience enabled Collins to run that play better than Campbell who has only had two years to learn it? The only difficulty with Al's system is the volume of plays. But, volume had nothing to do with the difference we saw in the Bears game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 The QB's from last year's playoff teams were:chargers - rivers high draft choice ravens - McNair free agent from Tenn colts - Manning high draft choice patriots - Brady low draft choice jets - pennington high draft choice chiefs - green/huard trade/FA bears - grossman high draft choice saints - Brees FA eagles - mcnabb high draft choice seahawks - hasselback trade cowboys - Romo sits to pee UDFA giants - manning high draft choice High draft choices: P.Manning, Pennington, Grossman, McNabb, E. Manning Low draft choices/UDFA: Brady, Romo sits to pee Trade/FA: McNair, Green/Huard, Brees, Hasselback It seems that there are a lot of ways to get a QB, and there is no overwhelming right way to do so. Lots of Qbs drafted on the first day have gone on to be unspectacular, as have some high dollar free agents. McNair was old and VY was the new king in town. They made the right decision there. Green- Dumb Mistake by Washington and Vermeil Brought Green over from KC. Brees- Bind with Rivers and had to let him go Hasselback- Relationship with Holmgren and he drafted him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnotBubbles Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 He's not a third year starter. He spent one year watching the Gibbs system, which was jettisoned for the Saundersgibbs system, which is now in another state of flux............................EXACTLY. He has basically one or two more games than a full year has anyone asked Collins how long it took him to learn Saunder's system?????? I believe it will take the guy another year to fully understand the system and when he does he will be precise acuurate and the offense will have a great flow. You can see how well he does when he runs the nohuddle, the offense flows and he will continue to learn and become more experienced lets give him time, hes the best one we have had around here for years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desioreo87 Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 There are obvious reasons why TC performed better against the Bears. He has been in the systen since the beginning of time, he knows it like the back of his hand and could probably draw any play in it from memory when called upon. Also he is 36 years old and has no pressure to perform well. He came into the game with no expectations and he was relaxed and just played football. JC has all the pressure on him and so at times he messes up. JC has only been practicing this system for 20 games. His first year it was gibbs' system, the second year he was still third string and running opposing offences until he got the call for his start. Yes he needs to work on his timing but he also needs his recievers healthy. You can't get timing down if you're recievers are constantly not practicing. The reason why he is missing Moss on long throws and hitting El and Thrash is because Moss has missed way too many practices to establish the chemistry and timing with JC. We have to give JC one more year to show us what he can do. If he doesn't improve then we have to evaluate it next offseason. If he does improve then great we move on with other areas of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskinsfan85 Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 For all the haters Jason Campbell - 10/16 for 100 yards. 2 dropped passes. No fumbles lost. Two scoring drives. Both fieldgoals missed. Should have been 12-16 for 145 yards, and 6 points on the board. Todd Collins. Yup, lost a fumble. Got lucky that Springs picked off Brian and returned it 50 yards. When has that happened to Campbell? He never gets that kind of help... Wide open Yoder. TD. Great. ANY QB could have made that throw. It was nearly intercepted anyways because it was in the air forever. Great play on Yoder holding onto it. 2nd TD: 100% CP. Collins saw the rush and passed it to Portis. Portis got to the 1yard line. His biggest play of the year. Sellers rumbled in. Yeah Collins did so much... Field goal for our next possession. Don't remember the drive much. Last possesion. The only good thing Collins did was throw that last touchdown. That pass looked crazy and could have been intercepted but good pass and I'll praise him for that. But other than that last pass he did nothing special. He got LOADS of HELP from his teammates. Springs intercepting two balls? CP catching and running for 60 yards. Those two had nothing to do with Collins. Campbell is doing just fine. Either you guys don't see talent or you are too impatient. Just give the guy sometime. IF you thought he'd lead us to the superbowl this year...get your head checked. Seriously. Or learn how football works. Talent takes TIME (key word) to develop. Jason Campbell will be the best QB we've seen in the last 20 years (Redskins organization) during the 2008/2009 season and will help lead this team to many good moments. Count on it. Haters need not see. It won't help your already assummed opinion and even if he does good you'll try and find the one neg. It's okay. Campbell >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Collins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashsra Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 I still can't believe some of you want to give up on JC. He looks like what a lot of 2nd year QBs look like, flashes of great play mixed in with some bad mistakes. He's already looks much better to me than Ramsey ever did. This is why people say folks in DC live off QB controversies, because we're never satisfied and won't let guys develop. Collins has spent 7 YEARS in the Al Saunders system, that's 5 MORE YEARS than Campbell's had people! You all honestly want to start this merry go round again and dump Campbell? Jason will be the starter next year regardless of what Collins does the rest of year, and I'm still definitely feel we have our QB of the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaimeDeCurry Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 Who said it was his phenomenal ability?Let's isolate one play, the TD pass to Betts. Can we say that nine years of experience enabled Collins to run that play better than Campbell who has only had two years to learn it? The only difficulty with Al's system is the volume of plays. But, volume had nothing to do with the difference we saw in the Bears game. Actually, I can say pretty easily that Collins' nine years of experience vs. Campbells one and a half years could very easily be the reason for lack of production in our offensive plays. Collins has seen every play in Saunders' book against every possible defensive front, and seen it for real. Not on film, not drawn up on a board, but in real life, right on the field. He's had the ability to see the outcome of those plays, talk to the starter, get from them what they saw, what they heard, and take that information and process it. Thats why on plays like the Betts touchdown, in your example, as soon as (Harris?) took his first step back into his short zone for the blitz, Collins was able to recognize it, and without having to think about who was going where on the play, get it out to Betts. He had that ball out of his hands almost before he had even finished his dropback. Experience matters. Verbage of plays matters. This isn't high school or even to some extent college football where similar terminology makes it easy for new offensive players to pick up a system. Campbell has shown great progress in the Saunders system this year. Once he stops completely blowing games in the red zone, we're going to forget all about these discussions. Until then, though, the debate will go on - "Is it Saunders' fault or Campbells' fault or Gibbs' fault?" and everyone will have to have someone to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 Todd Collins looked really good for one half Thursday. The last time we saw him play - in a short preseason appearance - he performed so atrociously my eyes started bleeding. Yet OldFan and others have concluded that he is the Master. I hope you all are right, but I'm not jumping to that conclusion on one half of football, any more than I'm jumping to conclusions on Campbell's career potential based on 20 regular season starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 9, 2007 Author Share Posted December 9, 2007 ....Yet OldFan and others have concluded that he is the Master.... Quote me, please. What did I say that led you to your conclusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armada58 Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 You can't ignore the fact that Jason was executing the offense on Thursday. He was making the throws with accuracy. He was 11 - 16 for 100 yards (2 drops). I think that the conservative play calling in second halves is the next hurdle that has to be overcome here. For some reason, Gibbs/Saunders DIDN'T take their foot off of the gas pedal against The Bears and it led directly to the victory. Was it the fact that Collins was in versus Campbell?? I really don't know. What I want to see is the Redskins playing with a lead, not playing conservative, with Jason under center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins4life326 Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 Every QB not named Brady or Romo sits to pee took about 2 to 3 years to start being good. Give it time people, Todd Collins has been in this offense for seven years of course he knows it better then Campbell. My sentiments EXACTLY!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 9, 2007 Author Share Posted December 9, 2007 ...Experience matters. Verbage of plays matters. This isn't high school or even to some extent college football where similar terminology makes it easy for new offensive players to pick up a system... Of course experience matters. But it's football. There's a limit to the value of experience. Two years is ample time to learn even the most complex system, especially for QBs who have been well coached in college and the pros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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