Muslims to Christians: 'Make peace with us or survival of world is at stake' (Merge)

[prophet]

You called a Redskins fan Dr. Z? On Extremeskins?

I volunteer to be the judge for the duel.

:laugh:

[Zguy28]

Well Said Dr Z

You called a Redskins fan Dr. Z? On Extremeskins?

I volunteer to be the judge for the duel.

:redpunch:

I've got Eye of the Tiger playing in the background right now...

[GibbsFactor]

Nope.

Actually, it was.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I used to post to another site. And for years after 9/11, right-wingers would come on and rhetorically ask, "Why has no Muslim publicly condemned the attacks on 9/11? Why? WHY?!?!?!?"

And then I would post, like, 25 articles with various Muslim clerics and political leaders and citizen groups condemning the attacks.

And then the person starting the discussion would say, "Muslims are allowed to lie to infidels. I don't believe them."

And then three weeks later, the same thing would happen.

[Johnny Punani]

Muslims don't believe Christians are polytheists

The fundamental key differences are that Muslims believe the Bible was distorted and changed by man (which when you look at how it was put together it was) and that Muslims deny the divinity of Christ

Surah 6, Al-Anam, The Cattle

6:154 Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favor) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail, and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.

The Book given to Moses was God's (Allah's) guide to the Children of Israel

Surah 32, As-Sajdah, The Prostration 3

2:23 We did indeed aforetime give the Book to Moses: be not then in doubt of its reaching (thee): and We made it a guide to the Children of Israel.

32:24 And We appointed, from among them, Leaders, giving guidance under Our command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs.

In the Qur'an, it is declared that Israel was commanded to follow the revelation of God contained in the Book of Moses.

Surah 17, Al-Isra, The Children of Israel

17:2 We gave Moses the Book, and made it a Guide to the Children of Israel, (commanding): "Take not other than Me as a Disposer of (your) affairs."

Jews Preserved God's Word

It is also important to show that in the Qur'an, the Jews were entrusted with the protecting and preserving of God's book, and no indication is given that they failed in that trust.

Surah 5, Al-Maidah, The Table Spread

5:47 It was We who revealed the law (to Moses); therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the Prophet who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the Rabbis and the doctors of Law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's Book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My Signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) unbelievers.

Old and New Testaments a Guide to Mankind

The Qur'an declares, that not only did God send the book to Moses, He also sent the Gospel of Jesus. These two books, together are stated to be a "guide to mankind."

Surah 3, Al-Imran, The Family of Imram (the Father of Moses)

3:2 God! there is no god but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal. 3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down Law (Of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

The above Ayah, or verse, also declares that Allah sent the Qur'an, called the Criterion here.

We need to be able to point out that the Qur'an ridicules the controversy over the two Testaments between Jews and Christians, but never once declares there is any error in either book.

Surah 2, Al-Baqarah, The Cow

2:113 The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon"; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (to stand) upon." Yet they (profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not, but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.

Muslims Commanded to Believe the Bible

The same Surah in the Qur'an declares that Muslims are to believe in all of the writings of the prophets, both the Old and New Testament! This is an important principle to lay down. Muslims are to believe the Bible.

Surah 2, Al-Baqarah, The Cow

2:136 Say ye: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord, we make no difference between one and another of them, and we bow to God (in Islam)."

Following the Bible would Cause One to Be Admitted to Paradise

The Qur'an says that the Old and New Testaments were adequate to guide men in God's (Allah') will, and if they would be followed, they would be blessed in this life as well as be admitted into paradise.

Surah 5, Al-Maidah, The Table Spread

5:68 If only the people of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of Bliss.

5:69 If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course; but many of them follow a course that is evil.

Jews and Christians Charged with Failing to Follow their Books

The Qur'an does make several charges against the way Jews and Christians use the books God had sent them. In the following Ayah, we will see the Jews charged with teaching the book to suit themselves. It will charge the Christians with forgetting to teach part of the message. But notice, in neither case does he say that the Book itself has been corrupted.

Surah 5, Al-Maidah, The Table Spread

5:13 God did aforetime take a Covenant from the Children of Israel, and We appointed twelve captains among them, and God said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practice regular charity, believe in My apostles, honor and assist them and loan to God a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path of rectitude."

5:14 But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard: they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them, barring a few, ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds): for God loveth those who are kind.

5:15 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a Covenant, but they forgot a good part of the Message that was sent them: so We estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the Day of Judgment. And soon will God show them what it is they have done.

No Charges of Corruption Are Made Against the Bible

The Qur'an charges that both Jews and Christians abused the Book that God had revealed, but where did he charge that the Book itself had become flawed? It is important to understand this, because now we can progress to the application and it's relationship to Muslim arguments about the corruption of our present Bible.

The Qur'an was written during the lifetime of Muhammad, who lived from AD 570 to AD 632. At that time, no charges of Biblical corruption were made against either the Old or New Testaments. This would indicate that from Muhammad's perspective as the Muslim's prophet, the previous revelations were still accurate. This is important. The Bible available to the people of Muhammad's day was not considered to have been corrupted.

[techboy]

Actually, it was.

Heheh. Whoops. Looks like I wasn't reading very carefully.

Still, I think the word "debate" implies more than was really there. Arianism was an extreme minority far outside the accepted (and until that point, informal) orthodoxy, as indicated by the overwhelming nature of the vote.

Actually, it brings up an interesting perspective, which is "thank God for heretics." In many cases, until somebody spoke up against the understood orthodoxy, nobody ever bothered to formalize the doctrines of the Church. If everybody agrees, why bother? Going back to the beginning, many of Paul's letters, for instance, were dealing with doctrinal errors.

If there hadn't been heretics, we might not even know today what the early church really believed and practiced.

[jpyaks3]

LONDON (Reuters) - More than 130 Muslim scholars from around the globe called on Thursday for peace and understanding between Islam and Christianity, saying "the very survival of the world itself is perhaps at stake."

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In an unprecedented letter to Pope Benedict and other Christian leaders, 138 Muslim scholars said finding common ground between the world's biggest faiths was not simply a matter for polite dialogue between religious leaders.

"If Muslims and Christians are not at peace, the world cannot be at peace. With the terrible weaponry of the modern world; with Muslims and Christians intertwined everywhere as never before, no side can unilaterally win a conflict between more than half of the world's inhabitants," the scholars wrote.

"Our common future is at stake. The very survival of the world itself is perhaps at stake," they wrote, adding that Islam and Christianity already agreed that love of God and neighbor were the two most important commandments of their faiths.

Relations between Muslims and Christians have been strained as al Qaeda has struck around the world and as the United States and other Western countries intervened in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Such a joint letter is unprecedented in Islam, which has no central authority that speaks on behalf of all worshippers.

The list of signatories includes senior figures throughout the Middle East, Asia, Africa, Europe and North America. They represent Sunni, Shi'ite and Sufi schools of Islam.

Among them were the grand muftis of Egypt, Palestine, Oman, Jordan, Syria, Bosnia and Russia and many imams and scholars. War-torn Iraq was represented by both Shi'ites and Sunnis.

Mustafa Cagrici, the mufti who prayed with Benedict in Istanbul's Blue Mosque last year, was also on the list, as was the popular Egyptian television preacher Amr Khaled.

"MAINSTREAM VOICES DROWNED OUT"

The letter was addressed to the Pope, leaders of Orthodox Christian churches, Anglican leader Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams and the heads of the world alliances of the Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist and Reformed churches.

Williams said he welcomed it as "indicative of the kind of relationship for which we yearn in all parts of the world."

"The call to respect, peace and goodwill should now be taken up by Christians and Muslims at all levels and in all countries," he said.

A Vatican official in Rome said the Roman Catholic Church would not comment until it had time to read the letter.

Aref Ali Nayed, one of the signatories and a senior adviser to the Cambridge Interfaith Program at Cambridge University in Britain, said the signatories represented the "99.9 percent of Muslims" who follow mainstream schools and oppose extremism.

"In Islam we have had a problem for some time now where the mainstream voices are drowned out by a minority that choose violence," he said.

Nayed said organizers of the letter had set up an ad hoc network among Muslim leaders that could lead to more cooperation in future.

"These people don't take their signatures lightly," he said. "We are trying to institutionalize this so we don't lose it."

The overture to Christians could be followed by similar letters addressed to Jews or secularists, he added.

Pope Benedict sparked Muslim protests last year with a speech hinting Islam was violent and irrational. It prompted 38 Muslim scholars to write a letter challenging his view of Islam and accepting his call for serious Christian-Muslim dialogue.

Benedict repeatedly expressed regret for the reaction to the speech, but stopped short of a clear apology sought by Muslims.

The new letter argues in theological terms, giving quotes from the Koran and the Bible that show both Christianity and Islam considered love of God as their greatest commandment and love of neighbor as the second greatest.

"The basis for this peace and understanding already exists," it said. "It is part of the very foundational principles of both faiths: love of the one God and love of the neighbor."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071011/ts_nm/religion_scholars_dc;_ylt=ArPOKh_owEXFvNz98tsIY0Cs0NUE

[dwbiggs]

:finger: the Muslims and if they want to :redpunch: ...bring em on.

[nuposse87]

:finger: the Muslims and if they want to :redpunch: ...bring em on.

:doh:

I hope you were joking...

[dwbiggs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwbiggs

:finger: the Muslims and if they want to :redpunch: ...bring em on.

:doh:

I hope you were joking...

Only half kidding...the radical Muslims do not want cooperation or compromise...they want Islam to be the world religion and rule the world. I have no problems with Muslims who live here as long as they live by the rules of this country...that means no abuse of women, no ****ing about alcohol in cabs or pork in check out lines.

[techboy]

The overture may be unprecedented, but this thread isn't. Check page 2.

[jpyaks3]

Sorry, Search function wasnt working

[Sarge]

Awesome. Get your own house in order first though

[PrinceNASeem]

I have no problems with Muslims who live here as long as they live by the rules of this country...that means no abuse of women, no ****ing about alcohol in cabs or pork in check out lines.

Violence Against Women in the United States

MURDER. Every day four women die in this country as a result of domestic violence, the euphemism for murders and assaults by husbands and boyfriends. That's approximately 1,400 women a year, according to the FBI. The number of women who have been murdered by their intimate partners is greater than the number of soldiers killed in the Vietnam War.

BATTERING. Although only 572,000 reports of assault by intimates are officially reported to federal officials each year, the most conservative estimates indicate two to four million women of all races and classes are battered each year. At least 170,000 of those violent incidents are serious enough to require hospitalization, emergency room care or a doctor's attention.

SEXUAL ASSAULT. Every year approximately 132,000 women report that they have been victims of rape or attempted rape, and more than half of them knew their attackers. It's estimated that two to six times that many women are raped, but do not report it. Every year 1.2 million women are forcibly raped by their current or former male partners, some more than once.

THE TARGETS. Women are 10 times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate. Young women, women who are separated, divorced or single, low- income women and African-American women are disproportionately victims of assault and rape. Domestic violence rates are five times higher among families below poverty levels, and severe spouse abuse is twice as likely to be committed by unemployed men as by those working full time. Violent attacks on lesbians and gay men have become two to three times more common than they were prior to 1988.

[dwbiggs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwbiggs

I have no problems with Muslims who live here as long as they live by the rules of this country...that means no abuse of women, no ****ing about alcohol in cabs or pork in check out lines.

Violence Against Women in the United States

MURDER. Every day four women die in this country as a result of domestic violence, the euphemism for murders and assaults by husbands and boyfriends. That's approximately 1,400 women a year, according to the FBI. The number of women who have been murdered by their intimate partners is greater than the number of soldiers killed in the Vietnam War.

BATTERING. Although only 572,000 reports of assault by intimates are officially reported to federal officials each year, the most conservative estimates indicate two to four million women of all races and classes are battered each year. At least 170,000 of those violent incidents are serious enough to require hospitalization, emergency room care or a doctor's attention.

SEXUAL ASSAULT. Every year approximately 132,000 women report that they have been victims of rape or attempted rape, and more than half of them knew their attackers. It's estimated that two to six times that many women are raped, but do not report it. Every year 1.2 million women are forcibly raped by their current or former male partners, some more than once.

THE TARGETS. Women are 10 times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate. Young women, women who are separated, divorced or single, low- income women and African-American women are disproportionately victims of assault and rape. Domestic violence rates are five times higher among families below poverty levels, and severe spouse abuse is twice as likely to be committed by unemployed men as by those working full time. Violent attacks on lesbians and gay men have become two to three times more common than they were prior to 1988.

Difference is its sanctioned in Muslim countries. :doh:

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Difference is its sanctioned in Muslim countries. :doh:

To quote Sarge, shouldn't we get our own house in order first?

(I should point out that I would certainly not want to live in an Islamic state and find anyone who actually wishes to codify the wishes of a unknowable Supreme Being into law is out of their mind. And I do not find Islam appealing at all as a religion.

But what I don't get is the arrogance that says, "Your religion and culture needs to follow the exact same path as ours." The Japanese don't give us a lecture on the superiority of Shinto every time we interact).

[PrinceNASeem]

Difference is its sanctioned in Muslim countries. :doh:

Wrong again, ABUSE against women is not sanctioned in a single muslim country. I have been to a few muslim countries, I live in a muslim household. The funny thing is, every muslim family I know, including my own, the mother "calls all of the shots."

[Sarge]

Wrong again, ABUSE against women is not sanctioned in a single muslim country. I have been to a few muslim countries, I live in a muslim household. The funny thing is, every muslim family I know, including my own, the mother "calls all of the shots."

Really? I give you one guesses as to what is happening to this woman

[SkinsHokieFan]

Wrong again, ABUSE against women is not sanctioned in a single muslim country. I have been to a few muslim countries, I live in a muslim household. The funny thing is, every muslim family I know, including my own, the mother "calls all of the shots."

True that. It is a hilarious myth, the women in my family are quite strong and are definitley the ones calling the shots

Which has, to be honest, made us men that much stronger, knowing how to deal with women who have opinions and are intelligent

[BigMike619]

Really? I give you one guesses as to what is happening to this woman

Iraqi day at the beach?

[dwbiggs]

Women's lack of freedom and outright abuse is a fundamental feature of Shari'a, which is the system of law many Islamic governments use. Shaykh Ghawhi, a well-known and well-respected (in Islamic universities and throughout the Islamic world) teacher and author of Islamic studies and Islamic law says that according to Shari'a:

• A woman must only leave her house if she has a real need to do so.
  
• Her husband or guardian must authorize her leaving the house.
  
• When she is out, she must be completely covered, including her face.
  
• When she is out, she must not look left or right but keep her head bowed down as she walks.
  
• She must not wear perfume in public.
  
• She must never shake a man's hand.
  
  
• Even if she is visiting a female friend and is inside her friend's house, she must not uncover herself in case a man is hiding somewhere in the house
  

http://citizenwarrior2.blogspot.com/2007/08/women-more-than-abused-in-islamic.html

[mad4comp]

Violence Against Women in the United States

MURDER. Every day four women die in this country as a result of domestic violence, the euphemism for murders and assaults by husbands and boyfriends. That's approximately 1,400 women a year, according to the FBI. The number of women who have been murdered by their intimate partners is greater than the number of soldiers killed in the Vietnam War.

BATTERING. Although only 572,000 reports of assault by intimates are officially reported to federal officials each year, the most conservative estimates indicate two to four million women of all races and classes are battered each year. At least 170,000 of those violent incidents are serious enough to require hospitalization, emergency room care or a doctor's attention.

SEXUAL ASSAULT. Every year approximately 132,000 women report that they have been victims of rape or attempted rape, and more than half of them knew their attackers. It's estimated that two to six times that many women are raped, but do not report it. Every year 1.2 million women are forcibly raped by their current or former male partners, some more than once.

THE TARGETS. Women are 10 times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate. Young women, women who are separated, divorced or single, low- income women and African-American women are disproportionately victims of assault and rape. Domestic violence rates are five times higher among families below poverty levels, and severe spouse abuse is twice as likely to be committed by unemployed men as by those working full time. Violent attacks on lesbians and gay men have become two to three times more common than they were prior to 1988.

Sorry, Apples and Oranges, can't compare the two. In America, You have the ability to report crimes and can rest assured that you will get a fair trial man/woman/child...But in Islamic nations which are under the Sharia law, do you seriously think a woman that got raped will come forth unless she has 4 males witness or whatever is the necessary for a rape to be proven guilty? What kind of Bullcrap law is that? And how about the killing of Gay or Lesbians in Islamic Nations? What about Apostates? Honor Killings? The list goes on and on.

[mad4comp]

In response to the original thread:

Comment: Muslim plea well-meaning but flawed

The intentions of the 138 leading Islamic scholars who today wrote to Christian leaders urging reconciliation, are praiseworthy - who among us does not want world peace? - but I fear that the theological analysis underpinning their intervention might not light many candles in the Christian world.

Unfortunately, the road to misunderstanding is paved with good intentions.

Among the first to respond to the letter today was the Bishop of Rochester, Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, a leading Anglican expert on Islam. Dr Nazir-Ali, who was born in Pakistan, told me he welcomed the fact that so many Muslim leaders want to enter a dialogue with Christians.

"But what I would stress is that dialogue between partners must be conducted in the integrity of each faith," he said. "One partner cannot dictate the terms on which dialogue must be conducted. This document seems to be on the verge of doing that.

TimesOnline

Not much of a peace agreement is it? :/

[Koolblue13]

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=8334&size=A

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Really? I give you one guesses as to what is happening to this woman

First of all, is there any chance that this is not a photo-shop? I mean, the shadowing strikes me as impossible, at least in the physical universe in which I live.

And it's not like Sarge doesn't fall for EVERY internet hoax.

Having said all that, abuse of women in some Muslim countries is a very real thing. But I think it has more to do with what happens when societies collapse or when ideologies are warped more than with Islam itself.

If you read the history of Islam, you will find that in the Middle Ages, Christians had far far more rights in Islamic countries than Muslims did in Christian countries. You would much rather be a Christian in Spain in the 1350s than you would a Muslim in France at the same time.

Even into the 19th Century, the Ottoman Empire managed to rule over Muslims, Christians and Jews without seeing much inter-faith fighting.

So...how did we get here? The rise of wahabiism gave radical Islam its tenets, the success of the Iranian Revolution gave it its political hub, the defeat of the Soviets in Afghanistan gave it is proof of righteousness, and the existence of Israel gave it its rallying cry.

A whole lot of bad things have sprung from these principle ideas.