Dirk Diggler Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I always knew how important having a good pass rush is but this weekend just unscored and highlighted it in my mind. Protecting leads has always been a combination of good coverage and pass rush, but we only have one of those elements. As you saw this weekend, the Falcons and Jets were harassing the opposing quarterbacks all day and low and behold, they protected their leads. In fact, they broke their backs. They didn't even have to blitz a whole lot. The pressure came from their Dlines. Adding pass rushers should be our Top Priority this season. Even if they are the 245 lb Terrell Suggs types. Just get there. I'm confident we can add run stoppers (Priority 2) later on in the draft in Rounds 2 or 3. Or find one or 2 in free agency. What you never find in free agency though are top pass rushers. They join top cover corners and franchise QB's on the "You will never find one as long as you live" list for Free Agency. You have to draft these players and I hope we start this year. Rant over :gus: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I agree. It's important to put pressure on a QB with your 4 DL...the extra man should usually disrupt the pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eparadox Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I also agree, now more than ever in today's NFL. It used to be that the key to stopping good offenses was #1) Stopping the run, and then #2) Pass Rush, but I believe that in today's NFL, this order has been reversed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljer Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 A pass rushing DE is top priority. Good ones don't come along very often, and if you have a shot at Suggs at 13 we'd better snap him up:cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Not shure I'd agree. Did Cleveland blow their game because: They didn't have a good enough pass rush, or They couldn't run the ball to save their lives? Did the Packers lose because they couldn't throw, or because they couldn't run? I think we can all agree: the team that controlled the line, won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsbadd Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 While I agree with some of you here, it seems to me the reason we are seeing such "scorefests" is that most secondaries in the NFL now suck. It seems that the top seeded teams(Tampa and Philly ) have the best secondary. Of course pressure on the QB is very important, but if nobody can cover it does not have the same impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 While I agree that a good pass rush from your front-four is important, it still is priority four or five as far as we're concerned. The biggest lesson learned (or re-learned) over the weekend was that the team that turns the ball over will loose unless they have such vastly superior talent that they can overcome it. The second lesson was about the importance of special teams. Our TOP are priorities are maturity and leadership (on defense you could get this and fix the rush problem also but we need this more on offense right now although PR may provide it), we then need to fix special teams (esp. in the kicker/punter department). Finally, we can look at rush end but this is ARGUABLY less important than fixing the interior line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted January 6, 2003 Author Share Posted January 6, 2003 Fellas When I say top priority I am referring to a combination of : 1) our most glaring weakness (not just now but taking into account the # of free agents and old bodies we have up front) 2) where a good portion of our money should be spent 3) the (lack of) availability of the players who can fill this need We will need to be very, very aggressive this season to secure this type of player. Whether it is outbidding (within reason) someone for Vonnie Holiday or trading up for whoever we feel is the top QB sacker (Suggs, McDougal) it needs to get done. I am well aware of our special teams gaffes this year, but are we going to draft a gunner with our #1 pick? Are we going to send the team plane to pick up the top Free Agent Long snapper at 12 AM on the first day of FA in Februrary? Gees, get a grip people. A terrific back 7 is being wasted by a mediocre Dline. It will continue to be wasted if we continue to neglect our front 4. I am sick and tired of seeing the Patrick Surtains on the AP team when I know that Champ is better. Why isn't he there? He has to cover for 2 or 3 moves while Surtain only has to cover 1. He has Jason Taylor chasing the QB and Champ has Renaldo Wynn. :shootinth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Mr. Diggler, It is you who needs to get a grip. I don't see one post here that calls for that kind of response. :cool: By the way, I suspected how you were enumerating priorities. I look at it the way I might list priorities for a work project. If you don't have a plan to fix the first things (the things that have kept us out of the playoffs for the last three years), fixing DE is worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Bill Walsh said that the key to winning in the NFL is late-game pass rush. If the Giants or Browns had it, they would have won yesterday going away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 To me the key to winning the game is not getting called for pass interference (mostly bogus ones) on key 2nd and 3rd downs. Of course, by merely breathing on a WR - a pass inteference is called. The NFL, and more importantly, the NCAA - needs to seriously look at the PI rule and determine exactly what is, and what isn't, pass interference. Right now - the rule is so one sided to the offense that its ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted January 6, 2003 Author Share Posted January 6, 2003 OPM You and Larry can be on one side of the fence. Me and my buddy Bill Walsh will be on the other :laugh: But seriously, I was using a little hyperbole (you seem to like big words) when I suggested drafting a gunner or signing a long snapper on the first day of free agency. You obviously took it a little too personally. Do we need a kicker? Yes. Do we need a punter? Absolutely. Do we need to hold on to the football and mature? Sure do. Maybe we should take April 26th off, not draft a soul, and just practice strip drills. Even Dan Snyder. We can have him run through the line and Pepper Rodgers can hit him from behind. I have confidence that the Special Teams will be addressed. There are either late round draftees who can fill the need or guys who are standing on the street who didn't cut it with their original teams. I saw a lot of great plays by some very good WR's this weekend. It seems like every team has at least 2 good ones. I think we may have 3. The draft will be filled with good ones. The draft will also be filled with nice guards. There is no shortage of serviceable players at these positions. Will there be a run on kickers and punters in the draft? Unlikely. Where will the draft be thin? Where will teams reach to get their hands on a good prospect? Dline. There was a run last year in the first 15 picks and there will be again this year. I'd like to be part of that run this year. Wouldn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsThug Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Amen. I think I've been ****ing about our lack of emphasis on our D line since I came on this board. Let's hope the GM cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Mr. Diggler, We are not on different sides if I use your definition of priorities. Don't know about Larry. Don't know if we're on the same side if you use mine but we appear to be. By the way, the best way to get a good pass rush is to get a solid lead. Ask your buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted January 6, 2003 Author Share Posted January 6, 2003 OPM I don't believe you are using my definition of priority...especially criteria #3. When it comes to availability, I think it is safe to say that kickers and punters are a little more available then pass rushers. There are 2 places to look: the draft and free agency. Every year you can find serviceable kcikers and punters by using either avenue. It's not like shooting fish in a barrell but it can be done. Now once the season starts, good luck finding a kicker or punter if your guy goes down. Just ask the eagles. :laugh: What you don't see is 10 sack guys sitting at the bus station. Teams do not let these guys hit the streets. You can go years without seeing one in free agency and you practically have to be picking in the top 15 to get one in the draft. However, this year it appears that there may be 1 or 2 available in February (they wont see the month of March) and we also have a top pick in April. So let's get 2 of these guys and field a top defense next year. Shall we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I agree that being able to consistently generate a pass rush with our defensive line is an area we were more consistently weak at this year than any other single area of weakness we had this year. The difference being that our other areas of weakness actually seemed to greatly improve, as with our receivers and our offensive line. The pass rush was never consistently good at any point in the season. What's worse is our BEST pass rushing defensive lineman is 39 and may retire and seems only able to produce big games in bursts given his age. If we had Jason Taylor rushing from the outside for us, we'd win three or four more games next year because we'd increase the turnovers in our favor by anywhere from 10-15 interceptions given our guys. But, so rarely do we force a QB into making a hurried throw that we generally have to defend the best possible throw in most circumstances and that does limit what is a strong secondary, especially at the corners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Mr. Diggler, I look at it the way I might list priorities for a work project. If you don't have a plan to fix the first things (the things that have kept us out of the playoffs for the last three years), fixing DE is worthless. In this thread I never enumerated priorites using your definition. If, however, you read some of my posts in other threads on this subject, you should understand that using your method of deciding priorities, brings me to the same conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted January 6, 2003 Author Share Posted January 6, 2003 OPM It is a good thing you don't have any "work projects" in the front office at Redskin Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 :gus: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Folks, the WR position is still our #1 priority. We have to be able to control the ball on offense. Our second priority is our OLine. Then our Dline. Why? Simple, if all else fails and we are unable to get a FA at WR and maybe a guard or two, the draft will become the only place we can control who we get on offense. We have a defense right now that can play with just about anybody in the league. We have our guys on defense under contract. We can deal with cap situation to make sure those guys don't bleed us to death but they are players who have proven this year that they can get the job done. So we don't have to put them as the top priority. We have to improve our offense and Special Teams at all costs. Defense has proven to be the stronger of the three so we need to concentrate on the other two. Now, as the FA start to hit the market, it will dictate how we attack the draft and who we go after on the market. All of these factors change each step we take. The big picture is awfully big and we don't have the luxary of knowing everything the coaching staff is trying to do. We can be assured of one thing though. Offense is our top priority. Once Coach Spurrier feels comfortable on how the FA is working out and if his plans are coming to pan out, then we'll start to worry about defense. We will be getting some defensive players, but not at the expense of a playmaker on offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Dirk, I agree with your original post on this thread and completely disagree w/ what Utahskins and others are saying. While defense may have been the stronger of the 3 early in the season and in the past couple of seasons, I do not think that will be the case by the beginning of next season. Bruce is pushing 40 and may not even be here next year(though I think he'll be back), and it appears big daddy will be gone. That leaves only Gardener to pressure the QB and there is no way to know if his back will hold up. I also don't think Gardener will be as effective without Wilky next to him taking up space. Wynn is a good run stopper, but rarely gets to the QB. On the other hand, the offense showed some real improvement towards the end of the season. Now we have an entire offseason to tweak the fun'n gun after what SOS learned about the nfl this year, and for Ramsey and our young receivers to get more comfortable with each other and the system. Here's what I think should happen: 1. draft a DE in the first - if that requires trading up or allows for trading down then do it. We need a pass rushing DE and we won't get one in free agency. 2. draft a guard in the second, hopefully the guy from Hawii. 3. draft a somewhat lesser know speed receiver - we have 3 good, young wr's that really started to come on in the end of the season. Yes we need a speed guy, but we don't need another first rounder. The second receiver from USC (can't remember his name) would be perfect. 4. draft depth at G,DE, and DT in rounds 4,6, and 7. We need some young depth on both lines. We're 1 or 2 injuries away from disaster on both lines. 5. pick up a FS in free agency. I actually don't think this as important as some of you do. I know Terrell got seriously burnt on may occaisions this year, but I think a big part of that was lack of a pass rush and just not understanding Lewis' system. With an offseason to study the system and a better pass rush he could do a lot better. To me these moves make us solid on both sides of the ball and we can afford all of these things under the cap. We cannot afford to draft a top wr, bring in an expensive FA like Price, and shore up both lines. Though I will say that I think Utah's plan is probably closer to what SOS and the FO will try to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 The Browns lost because of piss poor play calling. They had negative rushing yards and called run after run for three and outs with to much time on the clock even though they had been passing the ball up and down the field with great success. They didn't play to win, they played not to loose and it killed them. The Giants have the best pass rusher in the league and it didn't help them. So what is your point. You want a DE to protect a lead? We have the #5 defense in the NFL. Lets build an offense that can create that lead first. Who here thinks we could score that many points in the first place? Look at the Niners and Giants. Both have a gamebreaker on offense with TO and Shocky. Who do we have? Do you think we coould come from behind without a guy like TO? I'm beginning to think this board is full of idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Utah, The content of your post is solid. Your lead is lacking. You respond to people calling for defensive line to be the top priority by saying that if all else fails and we are unable to get a WR and maybe a guard or two in free agency than the draft is all we have left to fill those voids. You led with, "Folks, the WR position is still our #1 priority." Why don't you apply your own very sound logic and alter your lead. How about phrasing it if we are unable to fill our need at defensive line, but we are able to fill our need at receiver and offensive guard in free agency, then the draft is clearly the place you'd have to focus on defense. Obviously the free agency period will dicate almost everything for this team. It doesn't need to be pointed out that if we do nothing in free agency then the draft focus may be different than if we sign Price and Collins in free agency. We know this. We've said this. However, where we disagree is the premise that "right now" we have a defense than can play with just about anybody and that we have guys on the defense under contract. This is flatly false. We don't have Gardener or Powell under contract. We do have Smith, who may retire under contract, but, he may retire. We do have Wilkinson under contract, but we're rumored to be cutting him. On offense the only player we don't have under contract is Thompson that is of any consequence. We have all five line spots under contract with starting quality players. We have our best receiver and our tight ends. We have our QB and our running backs and our fullback. In fact, we have more of the offense under contract than the defense. I also have reservations about whether we are presently witnessing a defense than can play with just about anybody or whether we have a defense than can dominate the No. 30 and No. 32 offenses but the week before that had its best player say it was regressing. I completely agree with you that this team needs to add a receiver and another guard, while also signing Tre back. I agree completely with you that our special teams MUST be improved, starting with the kicking game. But, the offense finished the season, over the last six games, as the stronger of the two units, though it was also the more mistake prone. Too many people seem to have become in love with an underachieving defense on the strength of two very beneficial closing games in which it played very well. Further, the offense can find players in free agency to solve its areas of concern where there are no similiar players available to help the defense, which is in dire need on the defensive line. At least there are no real strong players in this spot in free agency yet that we know of. Taylor could come free and change that . We have to, with what we know now, smartly target our offensive needs in free agency. That coupled with our targeting of offensive talent in the draft last year will give that unit the necessary boost. The defense needs this draft, to go with last offseason's free agency to do the same. If we fail to secure help at receiver and guard in free agency, then this offseason will be a poor one even before the draft. But, if we fail to secure help at receiver and guard in free agency, then I may join you in assessing our needs in the draft as something different than the defensive line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 This is long. Art, your killing me here. Now, as for our situation with all three phases of the game. While I know that alot of folks here are just land blasting our defense because they had such fantastic outings vs the Cowgirls and the Texans that our ranking is a farce and we need to quickly shore up our gaping holes. It is the most stable out of the group because it has the players to cover up weaknesses that have been exposed. In Gardener's case, he will be a Redskin. There is no doubt about that. In Powell's case, well, I wouldn't be putting alot of money on him being the final key link we need in our chain to the Super Bowl. It would be great if he was, but it would surprise me. Being "flatly wrong" on these two players. You got me on that one. :notworthy: As for the rumors as to what may happen with Smith and Big Daddy, I don't know, but I can clear that up in a minute. When putting your team together, you first need to look at your own players you want to keep. We want, according to Coach Spurrier, to keep the Man-Child, Tre and Thompson. I will take that as a lock to get them resigned. All three would like to be here so its a matter of the FO getting the job done. So that leaves us with the fact of looking at who isn't under contract that we want to replace. Oh look, that pretty much means no one. I am going to bag the cap for the moment because while it will make the final decision, it does not factor in to where we need players. We look at both sides of the ball and try and determine where we come up short. Since we pretty much have everone under contract, we can be very specific as to where we need the most help. Lets take the defense to start, we have a solid secondary and LB crew. Sure we need a FS but not a top priority. Our Dline has 3 guys under contract and the fourth being worked out. Sure there is alot of wheeling and dealing here but not the #1 priority. We have playmakers on defense. Guys who can alter what our opponents are trying to do. Gardner, Arrington, Bailey, Trotter and Armstead are all playmakers and have contracts to back that up. That is a powerful defense that should be shutting down offenses later in the season as it did once the team became comfortable with what their responsibilites were in the scheme. We need a new kicker and a new punter. Anyone who can get this job done will earn the spot but high draft picks or major FA signings will not happen in this group so they can go to the wayside. Now, lets list our playmakers on offense. Jansen, Samuels and Davis. Well, it seems we are going to get rid of Davis so that leaves Jansen and Samuels. I'll let ASF debate about how much of an impact these two can make on the scoreboard but that is about it. I do not put Ramsey up there yet because to put it simply, he hasn't done it yet. He has shown us everything that Gus did to this point. Alot of promise and some damn amazing play but it needs to become consistent next year. Mind you, I think he has it all to make it great in this league with this passing offense but we'll see. You will notice though that we do not have any WR at the playmaker position. Why? Because we have none. We have little to no speed at the WR position. We have great hands and great height but not the speed necessary to scare defenses. Sure, I can see how people are enamored with our current group because we saw what they did in the last few games. I, however, have a little bit of experience in this area as to what to watch and also a pretty good understanding of what Coach Spurrier is trying to accomplish with this offense. Getting alot of great catches in 3 and 4 WR formations is great but teams can't win a ton of games that way. Let me try and explain this in football terms for you. When you call any pass play, you are looking to win match-ups on the field. To do this you try and eliminate as many of the defensive players as possible on any given play. By eliminate, I mean to force them to do something in thier responsibilites to take them away from your #1 target. The most effective way to do this is to force the defense to honor their top priority. For safties, that is the deep ball. You can do this within a five step drop if you have a WR who can force the S to turn and run. A whole new game opens up when this happens. A burner can force a S to cheat towards that player in order to cover him, thus, opeing up the other side or seam routes or even middle curl or backside crossing routes. A whole new world opens up when this happens. We could not do that this year. We played against most of the best this year and we allowed them to dictate where we would go with the ball because we could not force them to break their back peddle and we allowed them to read and react to all we did. You probably notice that we did not complete many deep balls this year and we saw alot of really scary throws vs Double coverage. Why, its because of what the safeties were doing. Our QBs this year had a horrible time with this and it took a rookie with a gun to opening it up a bit. But at pre-snap, we did not have the fear we needed from those guys to open the defense up. As of right now, we have WR who can be covered man vs man by almost anyone in the league. That will change. WR is our most important position to fill with the right player. We need speed and a reputation to go with him that will force defenses to respect him. We have the arm to get him the ball, now we need the guy to catch it. We may get that in Price or in someone else we don't know is in the picture yet. Either way, the timing of who we sign is not necessarily the order in what we need the most. Make no bones about it, our top priority is WR, the other positions are secondary compared to what our Passing Head Coach needs to make his offense run. The funny thing is, if fans could tell who it was the QB reads almost all of his throws off of, the answer as to what the most important part of this Spurrier team is would be obvious. The old saying goes, Offense wins games and defense wins championships. Well, I hate to ruin anyones rose color glasses here but our defense is alot closer to winning a championship then our offense is to winning games. Argue this if you want, but its the reality of football that will win out when it comes to who we need the most this offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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