headexplode Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 People that claim religion are no more moral than those who dont. Probably less so since they can justify any action with religion. That article is stupid. You dont need God to know right from wrong. And in no way does belief in God prevent wrongdoing.Also, that first sentence is retarded. Of course you cant blasphem without involving God. The freaking definition of the word has "God" in it. The word was invented by the church. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/blasphemy This paragraph particularly made me laugh: "Some people are very good at the self-centered exploitation of others." :laugh: Yeah, like the the Church. Pass the collection plate, or you are going to hell. Between these posts and the "Good News" of your stripper and beer volcano religion I am truly starting to believe you are Jesus Christ come back to heal the world. I am here to serve you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 I'll make my point again ... these men were psychopaths, much like other deeply religious men such as the BTK serial killer.A god-given morality, or a religious faith, or an evolutionary trait, will not overcome a psychopathic condition. What about all the other people who are not psychopaths, our prisons are filled with them, the news is full of them, if morality is evolutionary then why do so many lack it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCSaints_fan Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 So this is where Dawkins gets into a little trouble and the author has a somewhat valid point. By what defintion is a court 'objective'. The judge and the jury are all bound by the moral and ethical code imprinted upon them and society by evolultion. There is no reason to believe that evolution at this point in time has found the best possible solution. 'Best possible solution' is ill-defined. Especially in a evolutionary context. If I have a "better" moral code (for society), is it fair that it should be repressed because parts of it may disagree w/ the moral code imprinted on the majority of society?Simply who are you to judge that your evolutionary imprinted moral code is better than mine? Because I (and my allies) hae more guns than you. And the will to use them. Or maybe we don't. Guess we'll have to find out the hard way. Even if what you are saying is correct, would putting 'God' into the equation change anything? By what defintion is a court 'objective'. The judge and the jury are all bound by the moral and ethical code imprinted upon them and society by evolultion God. There is no reason to believe that evolution God at this point in time has found the best possible solution won't change his mind... Simply who are you to judge that your evolutionary imprinted moral code God is better than mine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCsportsfan53 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Again perfect examples of people who got it horribly wrong, which should be impossible for "social evolution" or evolutionary morality. Remember it would be against their DNA or their hardwired brain to do these horrible things. I can explain their actions, but atheism cannot because the very point that morality is developed by evolution is found lacking when evolutionary developed people so horribly violate their evolution by acting so terribly. You're assuming that evolution and genetics are infallable and perfect like your God. That's not even close to being the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 The point is that if morality is an evolutionary development then how in the world did those men and so many others violate that morality so horribly? This is the question that atheists cannot answer, the theistic argument of a fallen nature can and does. Morality as a result of evolutionary development will certainly have that "whatever works" flavour and not "whatever works best" flavour. "Immoral" actions have been well documented in theistic societies throughout history. If religion is the way, then how come it failed to deliver results? As the original article pointed out, human nature contains many natural tendencies, both "good" and "evil". The article suggests religion to be the only way of dealing with this situation... religion certainly tries to do that, but as we see it failed to achieve results so far. How about we merely try to make this world a better place for everybody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headexplode Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 What about all the other people who are not psychopaths, our prisons are filled with them, the news is full of them, if morality is evolutionary then why do so many lack it? Couldn't you as easily ask, "If God created and commands morality then why do so many lack it?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 You're assuming that evolution and genetics are infallable and perfect like your God. That's not even close to being the case. Then there is no consistent morality, and their are no immoral people. But wait, I thought it was an evolutionary development. Funny, how we all developed everything else the same, yet the morality is inconsistent with each person. I'm sorry but this seems very convenient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Again perfect examples of people who got it horribly wrong, which should be impossible for "social evolution" or evolutionary morality. Remember it would be against their DNA or their hardwired brain to do these horrible things. I can explain their actions, but atheism cannot because the very point that morality is developed by evolution is found lacking when evolutionary developed people so horribly violate their evolution by acting so terribly. Are you going to argue that self-preservation instinct is not real since suicide bombers exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCsportsfan53 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Then there is no consistent morality, and their are no immoral people. But wait, I thought it was an evolutionary development. Funny, how we all developed everything else the same, yet the morality is inconsistent with each person. I'm sorry but this seems very convenient. Developed everything else the same? What are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 Couldn't you as easily ask, "If God created and commands morality then why do so many lack it?" Because he also created people with free will. I've answered your question, now its your turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bliz Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Again perfect examples of people who got it horribly wrong, which should be impossible for "social evolution" or evolutionary morality. Remember it would be against their DNA or their hardwired brain to do these horrible things. I can explain their actions, but atheism cannot because the very point that morality is developed by evolution is found lacking when evolutionary developed people so horribly violate their evolution by acting so terribly. Of course atheism can answer. It's quite simple really. As someone else has already suggested, evolution does not happen in the blink of an eye. You can't snap your finger and suddenly the entire species has evolved. Showing that we have not reached the perceived goal or end of this evolution is not proof that we as a society are not progressing toward it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 Developed everything else the same? What are you talking about? DNA, why do we share the DNA on everything else but some apparently don't have the morality gene? BTW, I thought the human gnome was mapped, maybe I missed the morality gene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Again perfect examples of people who got it horribly wrong, which should be impossible for "social evolution" or evolutionary morality. Remember it would be against their DNA or their hardwired brain to do these horrible things. I can explain their actions, but atheism cannot because the very point that morality is developed by evolution is found lacking when evolutionary developed people so horribly violate their evolution by acting so terribly. i don't think you understand the concept of social evolution. social evolution is not an evolution of man, but just of society. it is not hard-wired in our brains, it is taught to us at a very young age. also, psychopaths fundamental problem IS that there is a problem with their brain. believe it or not, however, to truly become a psychopath, you need not only the predisposition of nature, but also nurture. people can be born predisposed to becoming a psychopath, but if they aren't raised in a hostile environment, that part of them will never show its face with raging homicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headexplode Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 As the original article pointed out, human nature contains many natural tendencies, both "good" and "evil". The article suggests religion to be the only way of dealing with this situation... religion certainly tries to do that, but as we see it failed to achieve results so far. How about we merely try to make this world a better place for everybody? Personally, I feel that the concepts of "good" and "evil" are human constructs anyway, not natural tendencies. The ultimate natural tendency is simply for the survival and propagation of the species (for whatever reason). Morality is something we've developed over the years to help acheive that end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 Of course atheism can answer. It's quite simple really. As someone else has already suggested, evolution does not happen in the blink of an eye. You can't snap your finger and suddenly the entire species has evolved. Showing that we have not reached the perceived goal or end of this evolution is not proof that we as a society are not progressing toward it. The problem is that no where in history do we find a progression of morality, we are the same then as today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 The idea that morality is evolved is ridiculous on it's face. Remove the laws and system of justice from the US for one year. Someone want to tell me it would still be a happy place? I mean our sense of morality is evolved right... so it's not like we'd see a massive upswing in rape, murder, theft, and just about every other immoral and violent act. right?Nonsense. A human is always at war with his more primal instancts. A system of morality and a system of laws and justice above that keeps people civil and advanced. Strip away rule books and leave humans to their own devices relying on their "evolved" traits to guide them and the world would turn into a decidedly immoral place. Except that the laws and legeal system were put in place by humans so stripping them away would in fact be counter to the evolution that caused us to put them in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bliz Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 DNA, why do we share the DNA on everything else but some apparently don't have the morality gene? BTW, I thought the human gnome was mapped, maybe I missed the morality gene. You mean why is our DNA almost identical to the monkey? Because we evolved from them. Ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Pick up and read the newspaper, watch the news, apparently not everyone shares your highly developed evolutionary morality, because the things you describe are rampantly occuring in this "godless" society. And crime is now an excuse for a godless society? Are you kidding me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 DNA, why do we share the DNA on everything else but some apparently don't have the morality gene? BTW, I thought the human gnome was mapped, maybe I missed the morality gene. Evolution of DNA is one thing. Social evolution is another. Evolution of morality involves both. Social evolution builds on whatever is there. There is a number of well-documented mechanisms that are involved in making us social animals. For example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neurons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 i don't think you understand the concept of social evolution. social evolution is not an evolution of man, but just of society. it is not hard-wired in our brains, it is taught to us at a very young age. so you are trying to remove religion from improvement of a society? Since every society has been influenced by some faith or another I would suggest that your task is impossible. also, psychopaths fundamental problem IS that there is a problem with their brain. believe it or not, however, to truly become a psychopath, you need not only the predisposition of nature, but also nurture. people can be born predisposed to becoming a psychopath, but if they aren't raised in a hostile environment, that part of them will never show its face with raging homicide. So how do you explain the rest of society, you know those folks who fill our jails and prisons who are not psychopaths? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 The problem is that no where in history do we find a progression of morality, we are the same then as today. What an absolute crock. We have progressed morally, just look at the end of slavery as an example. . .or how about equal rights. To say that we have not progressed as a society shows you inherent bias, and inability to think objectively. That statement should exempt you from any logical discussion on this matter, because you have shown an inability to understand what progression socially is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 And crime is now an excuse for a godless society? Are you kidding me? No the godlessness of society is, high crime is just the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Again perfect examples of people who got it horribly wrong, which should be impossible for "social evolution" or evolutionary morality. Remember it would be against their DNA or their hardwired brain to do these horrible things. I can explain their actions, but atheism cannot because the very point that morality is developed by evolution is found lacking when evolutionary developed people so horribly violate their evolution by acting so terribly. Of course, you've heard of mutations and that it is possible that these people had mutations so that the code was absent or that other forces became secondary to that code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headexplode Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Because he also created people with free will. I've answered your question, now its your turn. I can use your answer. Human beings have "free will" and some choose to abide by the larger society's mores, and some don't. I do that in my daily life. There are some attitudes and beliefs and mores in our society that I choose to reject, and others I choose to embrace. Free will, to whatever extent we can have free will, does not imply a creator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 What about all the other people who are not psychopaths, our prisons are filled with them, the news is full of them, if morality is evolutionary then why do so many lack it? That's a different argument. The violent, immoral individuals you identified are/were psychopaths. Regarding those who are imprisoned for any range of crimes, not everyone has a fully developed sense of morality - nature and nurture of course plays a part. You could make exactly the same argument about intelligence, or any physical characteristic. No-one is arguing that all humans have evolved to the point where a global peaceful society is likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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