I was a fanatic...I know their thinking...

[DixieFlatline]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=465570&in_page_id=1770

Interesting article from a former radical Islamist. I hope more people of the Muslim faith have the courage to speak out.

[Mad Mike]

By blaming the Government for our actions, those who pushed this "Blair's bombs" line did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.

And as with previous terror attacks, people are again saying that violence carried out by Muslims is all to do with foreign policy.

For example, on Saturday on Radio 4's Today programme, the Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, said: "What all our intelligence shows about the opinions of disaffected young Muslims is the main driving force is not Afghanistan, it is mainly Iraq."

Sound familiar? Then listen to this...

I left the British Jihadi Network in February 2006 because I realised that its members had simply become mindless killers. But if I were still fighting for their cause, I'd be laughing once again

what drove me and many others to plot acts of extreme terror within Britain and abroad was a sense that we were fighting for the creation of a revolutionary worldwide Islamic state that would dispense Islamic justice.

the foundation of extremist reasoning rests upon a model of the world in which you are either a believer or an infidel.

since Islam must declare war on unbelief, they have declared war upon the whole world.

OK, so who wants to call this guy a republican warhawk? :doh:

[AJ_Skins]

When I was still a member of what is probably best termed the British Jihadi Network - a series of British Muslim terrorist groups linked by a single ideology - I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy.

By blaming the Government for our actions, those who pushed this "Blair's bombs" line did our propaganda work for us.

More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.

The attempts to cause mass destruction in London and Glasgow are so reminiscent of other recent British Islamic extremist plots that they are likely to have been carried out by my former peers.

And as with previous terror attacks, people are again saying that violence carried out by Muslims is all to do with foreign policy.

For example, on Saturday on Radio 4's Today programme, the Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, said: "What all our intelligence shows about the opinions of disaffected young Muslims is the main driving force is not Afghanistan, it is mainly Iraq."

I left the British Jihadi Network in February 2006 because I realised that its members had simply become mindless killers. But if I were still fighting for their cause, I'd be laughing once again.

All day long, Democrats on this board are spewing non-stop about this stuff, and now...crickets.

Come on folks, explain away the truth. It's what you do best.

[Reic]

There is a movie called Paradise Now that covers this issue, it is a pretty decent movie if you want to take the time out to watch it.

[AJ_Skins]

Come on, people.

TELL US HOW BUSH IS CREATING TERRORISM WITH THE WAR IN IRAQ.

[The Sisko]

Try reading a little before you try to misappropriate ideas for your own use. Might I suggest you begin with the article that's posted in this thread.

First of all the author's contention, contrary to your belief, is not that all Islam is violent or bent on world destruction. Rather he points out that there is a general denial of the fact that Islam has some tenets that through the magic of twisting logic and interpretation, can be construed as condoning violence by extremists. Truer words were never spoken. But, guess what? The same can be said of your precious Christianity.

However, just as in the "This is what liberals believe" thread you have only pointed out your own ignorance by attempting to pass off the views of extremists for those of the mainstream.

[FuriousD]

Come on, people.

TELL US HOW BUSH IS CREATING TERRORISM WITH THE WAR IN IRAQ.

Oh, ye of little imagination!

There is a whole generation of children growing up in Iraq who have known nothing but a military American presence, an infidel, military presence in their streets and towns.

They are 4 years old now. These are young, very impressionable minds soon to be thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years of age....

What are these kids growing up thinking of America?

Do you think we will be reaching them with our own particlar flavor of propaganda or do you think it's far more reasonable that the homespun brew will be in full affect?

My guess is the latter.

:helmet:

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Didn't our own intelligence services say the war in Iraq was creating more terrorism? ****ing liberals.

[TradeTheBeal!]

All day long, Democrats on this board are spewing non-stop about this stuff, and now...crickets.

Come on folks, explain away the truth. It's what you do best.

"Truth"? "Democrats"? My man, you have been down so long that it looks like up to you. Know your limits and just start spouting propaganda...if that's not beyond your capabilities. Good Luck!

[Mad Mike]

Try reading a little before you try to misappropriate ideas for your own use. Might I suggest you begin with the article that's posted in this thread.

First of all the author's contention, contrary to your belief, is not that all Islam is violent or bent on world destruction. Rather he points out that there is a general denial of the fact that Islam has some tenets that through the magic of twisting logic and interpretation, can be construed as condoning violence by extremists. Truer words were never spoken. But, guess what? The same can be said of your precious Christianity.

However, just as in the "This is what liberals believe" thread you have only pointed out your own ignorance by attempting to pass off the views of extremists for those of the mainstream.

Yusuf

No one has claimed that all muslims think this way. I sure as hell didn't. This is a discussion about radicals and terrorists and THEY DO think this way. What I and others are trying to point out is that radicals are not created by foreign policy but rather by the misguided interpretation of their religion.

I give you one more quote from this ex-radical:

Crucially, the Muslim community in Britain must slap itself awake from its state of denial and realise there is no shame in admitting the extremism within our families, communities and worldwide co-religionists.

[Mad Mike]

Oh, ye of little imagination!

There is a whole generation of children growing up in Iraq who have known nothing but a military American presence, an infidel, military presence in their streets and towns.

They are 4 years old now. These are young, very impressionable minds soon to be thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years of age....

What are these kids growing up thinking of America?

Do you think we will be reaching them with our own particlar flavor of propaganda or do you think it's far more reasonable that the homespun brew will be in full affect?

My guess is the latter.

:helmet:

Oh ye of little imagination?

Imagine this. Sadam was indoctrianting them in his hatred of the US. While he was getting rich from the oil for food program and his people were suffering, he was telling them that it was our fault. bin Laden wrote it into his fatwa. For the love of god stop showing your ignorance and listen to what the radicals themselves are saying.

Right now there are MILLIONS of Iraqis who are glad we got rid of Saddam. They want us to leave but they want us to make sure they are safe first. Those are the people we need to be concerned about. Not the thousands of terrorists who would hate us no mater what we do.

[The Sisko]

Yusuf

No one has claimed that all muslims think this way. I sure as hell didn't. This is a discussion about radicals and terrorists and THEY DO think this way. What I and others are trying to point out is that radicals are not created by foreign policy but rather by the misguided interpretation of their religion.

I give you one more quote from this ex-radical:

Agreed. However my comments weren't directed at you. In fact, I think my comments jibe with yours pretty well. I was actually pointing out someone else's stupidity given that his comments showed a complete lack of having actually read the article he was using to try to make his point.

Now with that said, I have to disagree somewhat with your comments regarding Iraq as a breeding/training ground for extremists. There are many sources within the intelligence community that say exactly that. But hey, what do they know about the issue? They're just a bunch of liberals.

**Please excuse those last comments. They were directed at the same person as my original post.

****EDIT****In re-reading my prior post, I see why you came to the conlusions you did MadMike. However, for the record I think the author is spot on in his comments. I have long held that Islam needs to have it's own version of the reformation.

[Koolblue13]

Come on, people.

TELL US HOW BUSH IS CREATING TERRORISM WITH THE WAR IN IRAQ.

Okay, I'll bite, but i'll let Osama explain it to you.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/interview.html

This is an interview from 98'. He explains why Islam is at war, explains what will happen and is on point with the 9/11 report as to why we we're attacked.

Read the whole thing AJ, he blasts Clinton more than anyone, you'll love it.

He says a few times, he is at war with the gov't of America, the people are drawn into it because we have elected our gov't.

We have been at war for a lot longer than Iraq or 9/11, it just took awhile for the American people to find out.

Disclaimer- I don't agree with the Anti-semitism in this interview.

[AJ_Skins]

Agreed. However my comments weren't directed at you. In fact, I think my comments jibe with yours pretty well. I was actually pointing out someone else's stupidity given that his comments showed a complete lack of having actually read the article he was using to try to make his point.

Now with that said, I have to disagree somewhat with your comments regarding Iraq as a breeding/training ground for extremists. There are many sources within the intelligence community that say exactly that. But hey, what do they know about the issue? They're just a bunch of liberals.

**Please excuse those last comments. They were directed at the same person as my original post.

****EDIT****In re-reading my prior post, I see why you came to the conlusions you did MadMike. However, for the record I think the author is spot on in his comments. I have long held that Islam needs to have it's own version of the reformation.

Well, I did read the article. Maybe I misinterpreted it. It sounded to me like he said that the Jihadis laugh every time they hear someone claim that their actions are a result of U.S. (or British) foreign policy.

They are not fighting to get revenge for things that have been done. They are fighting to establish a worldwide Islamic state. He makes that quite clear.

Furthermore, the terrorists in England, like those on 9/11, are professionals in the upper middle class, further eroding the concept that these are people oppressed by poverty and western imperialism who are lashing out in despair.

They are Islamic "nationalists" on a political and religious crusade to convert the world to Islam. Period.

[Thanos]

Sadly we don't even focus on Indoniesha ,with the largest Muslim population on Earth.

[AJ_Skins]

Okay, I'll bite, but i'll let Osama explain it to you.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/interview.html

Allow me to pull out some key quotes:

------------

"The call to wage war against America was made because America has spear-headed the crusade against the Islamic nation, sending tens of thousands of its troops to the land of the two Holy Mosques over and above its meddling in its affairs and its politics, and its support of the oppressive, corrupt and tyrannical regime that is in control."

------------

In other words, we are standing in the way of their goal of establishing an Islamic state, and so are the Saudis.

------------

You come from a background of wealth and comfort to end up fighting on the front lines. Many Americans find that unusual.

"This is difficult to understand, especially for him who does not understand the religion of Islam. In our religion, we believe that Allah has created us for the purpose of worshiping him. He is the one who has created us and who has favored us with this religion. Allah has ordered us to make holy wars and to fight to see to it that His word is the highest and the uppermost and that of the unbelievers the lowermost. We believe that this is the call we have to answer regardless of our financial capabilities.

We do not have to differentiate between military or civilian. As far as we are concerned, they are all targets.This too answers the claims of the West and of the secular people in the Arab world. They claim that this blessed awakening and the people reverting to Islam are due to economic factors. This is not so. It is rather a grace from Allah, a desire to embrace the religion of Allah. And this is not surprising. When the holy war called, thousands of young men from the Arab Peninsula and other countries answered the call and they came from wealthy backgrounds. Hundreds of them were killed in Afghanistan and in Bosnia and in Chechnya. "

Disclaimer- I don't agree with the Anti-semitism in this interview.

Does that mean you agree with the rest of it?

[chomerics]

However, just as in the "This is what liberals believe" thread you have only pointed out your own ignorance by attempting to pass off the views of extremists for those of the mainstream.

Yusuf, spot on, and 100% correct. Their chest thumping only exacerbates their own ignorance on the issue, and exposes the simple minded approach to this problem. Thank god they don't have the voice of the majority any more, and people have come to realize how crazy these people are.

[alexey]

It's cute how willing they are to agree with terrorists as long as terrorist propaganda matches their propaganda.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

I think the question is why are so many young muslims turning to this radical islamic theology though? Nowhere does the guy say that all Muslims are at war with the world to establish the Islamic state. He says that radical Muslims are at war to establish such a state.

If you notice, he says he realized that they were "mindless killers" because he realized that he was British and Muslim. That he lived there, was part of the society, and it was not a state of the infidels.

So, while I agree its a disturbing peace, I think you have to take a step back and look at what is driving people to radicalism and not just what the radicals believe they are accomplishing. Radicals do want to establish a muslim state. I understand that. But I think we have to understand why some muslims are turning to radicalism, as opposed to trying to understand why radicals believe they need to establish an islamic state.

[alexey]

So, while I agree its a disturbing peace, I think you have to take a step back and look at what is driving people to radicalism and not just what the radicals believe they are accomplishing. Radicals do want to establish a muslim state. I understand that. But I think we have to understand why some muslims are turning to radicalism, as opposed to trying to understand why radicals believe they need to establish an islamic state.

Stop it, you're making too much sense.

[Koolblue13]

Allow me to pull out some key quotes:

Does that mean you agree with the rest of it?

I don't agree with war unless you are attacked. When he says he wants an Islamic state, I didn't take that to mean, you all have to die.

He said, several times, in the article, We are attacking and fighting because we have already been attacked. It's the same things from the 9/11 report.

I didn't read "I hate your freedoms or ideals", I read leave us alone.

I agree with leaving them alone. I also agree we need much much better leadership in our country.

How does Osama know how screwed up our gov't is and our own people don't.

[chomerics]

It's cute how willing they are to agree with terrorists as long as terrorist propaganda matches their propaganda.

:laugh: and so true

[Koolblue13]

There is a whole generation of children growing up in Iraq who have known nothing but a military American presence, an infidel, military presence in their streets and towns.

They are 4 years old now. These are young, very impressionable minds soon to be thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years of age....

What are these kids growing up thinking of America?

:helmet:

Didn't our own intelligence services say the war in Iraq was creating more terrorism? ****ing liberals.

AJ, we have been involved with shadow wars, putting people in power and all sorts of other things, like military occupations on holy grounds for decades and decades. It took them a long time to begin to retaliate against "forign oppresors". I'm an American, I've served my country and I vote, but one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Stop using buzz words as your complete arguement, pointing fingers and start reading on your own and making your own decisions.

Everytime I've seen an article from one of our enemies, it is consistant of the interview I posted and the 9/11 comishion report.

Stop letting the Fear Mongering that goes on inside our own country, rule your opinion.

[AJ_Skins]

I think the question is why are so many young muslims turning to this radical islamic theology though? Nowhere does the guy say that all Muslims are at war with the world to establish the Islamic state. He says that radical Muslims are at war to establish such a state.

Wait a minute...where did I , in this thread or anywhere else, say "all Muslims"? I didn't.

If you notice, he says he realized that they were "mindless killers" because he realized that he was British and Muslim. That he lived there, was part of the society, and it was not a state of the infidels.

So, while I agree its a disturbing peace, I think you have to take a step back and look at what is driving people to radicalism and not just what the radicals believe they are accomplishing. Radicals do want to establish a muslim state. I understand that. But I think we have to understand why some muslims are turning to radicalism, as opposed to trying to understand why radicals believe they need to establish an islamic state.

Well, you probably won't accept this, but here goes. Their motivation is the same as the Nazis. Just as the Germans felt humiliated after WWI and sought to re-establish their national pride, the Jihadists see a long string of humiliation of the Muslim world through defeat after defeat. They see the west succeeding and themselves failing, and they want to alter the equation. Likewise, just as the Nazis blamed the Jews for their problems, the Jihadists blame the Jews, and concoct all sorts of wild conspiracy theories about them. They view the existence of Israel as a humiliation against Islam, and they view the Jews, supported by the U.S., as the main group standing in the way of the re-assertion of their dominance. You might also recall that Muslim countries sided with the Germans in WWII, and that the President of Iran recently hosted a conference questioning whether the Holocaust actually occurred.

[AJ_Skins]

It's cute how willing they are to agree with terrorists as long as terrorist propaganda matches their propaganda.

The subject of this interview is a former terrorist--and I'm interested to know what part it is of what he says that you consider "propaganda".