I was a fanatic...I know their thinking...

[AJ_Skins]

Yusuf, spot on, and 100% correct. Their chest thumping only exacerbates their own ignorance on the issue, and exposes the simple minded approach to this problem. Thank god they don't have the voice of the majority any more, and people have come to realize how crazy these people are.

In your dreams.

[alexey]

Well, you probably won't accept this, but here goes. Their motivation is the same as the Nazis. Just as the Germans felt humiliated after WWI and sought to re-establish their national pride, the Jihadists see a long string of humiliation of the Muslim world through defeat after defeat. They see the west succeeding and themselves failing, and they want to alter the equation. Likewise, just as the Nazis blamed the Jews for their problems, the Jihadists blame the Jews, and concoct all sorts of wild conspiracy theories about them. They view the existence of Israel as a humiliation against Islam, and they view the Jews, supported by the U.S., as the main group standing in the way of the re-assertion of their dominance. You might also recall that Muslim countries sided with the Germans in WWII, and that the President of Iran recently hosted a conference questioning whether the Holocaust actually occurred.

What about economic factors? Would you like to comment on any parallels there?

History has countless examples of similar scenarios. These scenarios somehow always grow out of lack of economic (and, of course, mating) opportunities for pubescent males. And no, listening to them explain it is not the best way to figure out what's going on.

[Koolblue13]

Wait a minute...where did I , in this thread or anywhere else, say "all Muslims"? I didn't.

Well, you probably won't accept this, but here goes. Their motivation is the same as the Nazis. Just as the Germans felt humiliated after WWI and sought to re-establish their national pride, the Jihadists see a long string of humiliation of the Muslim world through defeat after defeat. They see the west succeeding and themselves failing, and they want to alter the equation. Likewise, just as the Nazis blamed the Jews for their problems, the Jihadists blame the Jews, and concoct all sorts of wild conspiracy theories about them. They view the existence of Israel as a humiliation against Islam, and they view the Jews, supported by the U.S., as the main group standing in the way of the re-assertion of their dominance. You might also recall that Muslim countries sided with the Germans in WWII, and that the President of Iran recently hosted a conference questioning whether the Holocaust actually occurred.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3347309,00.html

Do you have a link?

[jpyaks3]

I think the question is why are so many young muslims turning to this radical islamic theology though? Nowhere does the guy say that all Muslims are at war with the world to establish the Islamic state. He says that radical Muslims are at war to establish such a state.

If you notice, he says he realized that they were "mindless killers" because he realized that he was British and Muslim. That he lived there, was part of the society, and it was not a state of the infidels.

So, while I agree its a disturbing peace, I think you have to take a step back and look at what is driving people to radicalism and not just what the radicals believe they are accomplishing. Radicals do want to establish a muslim state. I understand that. But I think we have to understand why some muslims are turning to radicalism, as opposed to trying to understand why radicals believe they need to establish an islamic state.

Best post in the whole thread, this is the problem we have to look at and address.

[AJ_Skins]

What about economic factors? Would you like to comment on any parallels there?

History has countless examples of similar scenarios. These scenarios somehow always grow out of lack of economic (and, of course, mating) opportunities for pubescent males.

Brilliant. :doh:

Go read both of the interviews posted in the thread. Bin Laden himself refutes the notion that it is economic in nature. Recognize the fact that the terrorists on 9/11 were engineers, and the terrorists in the UK over the past few days were doctors.

And no, listening to them explain it is not the best way to figure out what's going on.

Right...because they wouldn't know what their own motivations are.

[AJ_Skins]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3347309,00.html

Do you have a link?

Now you're just being a naysayer. I did not say they are Nazis, just they are not Germans. I said their motivation is the same.

Here's your link for the Holocaust conference:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6167695.stm

Do you seriously need me to post proof that these people are anti-Semites? Are you that ignorant?

[DixieFlatline]

I think the question is why are so many young muslims turning to this radical islamic theology though? Nowhere does the guy say that all Muslims are at war with the world to establish the Islamic state. He says that radical Muslims are at war to establish such a state.

What about this quote?

"How do Islamic radicals justify such terror in the name of their religion? There isn't enough room to outline everything here, but the foundation of extremist reasoning rests upon a model of the world in which you are either a believer or an infidel.

Formal Islamic theology, unlike Christian theology, does not allow for the separation of state and religion: they are considered to be one and the same.

For centuries, the reasoning of Islamic jurists has set down rules of interaction between Dar ul-Islam (the Land of Islam) and Dar ul-Kufr (the Land of Unbelief) to cover almost every matter of trade, peace and war.

But what radicals and extremists do is to take this two steps further. Their first step has been to argue that, since there is no pure Islamic state, the whole world must be Dar ul-Kufr (The Land of Unbelief).

Step two: since Islam must declare war on unbelief, they have declared war upon the whole world."

[Koolblue13]

Now you're just being a naysayer. I did not say they are Nazis, just they are not Germans. I said their motivation is the same.

Here's your link for the Holocaust conference:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6167695.stm

Do you seriously need me to post proof that these people are anti-Semites? Are you that ignorant?

Gimme a little credit. I know they don't like the jews. When I went to search for what you were saying, I found an article that differed, so I asked for a link.

Nice David Duke reference, funny.

[Air Force Cane]

for 30 years Islamic jihadis laugh at how stupid Western liberals are.

"oh, they commit murder because they are so poor- we need to create a Peace Corps and build them wells for water!!

John Edwards came up with that line of thinking last month. Along with the "the global war on terror is simply a bumper sticker"

And what do you know? In the last 7 years we see about 12 doctors convicted of terrorism, millionaires supporting Bin-Laden, teachers and government officials leading Hamas and business owners being in Hizbullah.

I wonder if liberals will ever wake up to reality.

I doubt it- for them it is easier to blame all of the world's problems on George Bush. It is too terrifying for the libs' fragile psyches to acknowledge that millions of pious Muslims want to cut off their heads and murder their children here in America.

[Chump Bailey]

“The attacks on the Trade Center were not by a "lunatic fringe," she said, but by the very center of the faith: "This was not just Islam, this was the core of Islam . . . this was not frustration, poverty, colonialism, or Israel: it was about religious belief, a one way ticket to Heaven."

-Ayaan Hirsi Ali

[Zguy28]

Our foreign policy is not the cause of the rise of Islamic fascism.

We are just enablers. :2cents:

[alexey]

Brilliant. :doh:

Go read both of the interviews posted in the thread. Bin Laden himself refutes the notion that it is economic in nature. Recognize the fact that the terrorists on 9/11 were engineers, and the terrorists in the UK over the past few days were doctors.

Yeah let's trust Bin Laden :doh: :laugh:

Right...because they wouldn't know what their own motivations are.

They will tell you the way they explain their motivations to themselves. Are you naive enough to take that at face value???

[alexey]

Bin Laden: We want America to elect Democrats.

Republicans: See? Bin Laden wants you to elect Democrats.

American People: crap, we should elect Republicans.

Bin Laden: (laughing hysterically) muahaha, gullible Americans! This is exactly what I wanted!!!

[jpyaks3]

for 30 years Islamic jihadis laugh at how stupid Western liberals are.

"oh, they commit murder because they are so poor- we need to create a Peace Corps and build them wells for water!!

John Edwards came up with that line of thinking last month. Along with the "the global war on terror is simply a bumper sticker"

And what do you know? In the last 7 years we see about 12 doctors convicted of terrorism, millionaires supporting Bin-Laden, teachers and government officials leading Hamas and business owners being in Hizbullah.

I wonder if liberals will ever wake up to reality.

I doubt it- for them it is easier to blame all of the world's problems on George Bush. It is too terrifying for the libs' fragile psyches to acknowledge that millions of pious Muslims want to cut off their heads and murder their children here in America.

My argument to this is that many of the higher ups are rich and have plans for a truly universal Islamic state, there people we cannot affect, however, most of the recruits and the manpower of Al-Qaeda and other operations comes from the poor and the uneducated. The planners are pretty smart and resourceful people, however the major populous of these organizations are recruited through religious schools like madrasses who impart these beliefs on them from an early age. If we can fix public schools and work to move the mainstream poor away from madrasses the pool of potential terrorists dwindles somewhat. We cant affect the fundementalist extremists in the middle or upper echelons of Al-Qaeda however we can work to undermine the support base by helping wean the poor population off of madrasses which will in turn help provide an alternative to the extremist views that they are currently being saturated in by the Madrass system.

Hamas and Hezbollah are two entirely different entities, they are nationalist and regionalist that are working within a region. They do not attack or plan to attack us unless we enter their realm. Hezbollah was created to drive the Israeli's out of Lebanon, that was its purpose and it worked entirely within that framework, that is why the Marines in Beirut was attacked it was because we were within their civil war, they had no greater beef with us then the fact that we were there and we were hurting their cause. Hamas is a Palestinian nationalist group that I dont belive has done any significant damage to the United States, they are simply fightiin with Fatah and Israel.

[FuriousD]

Oh ye of little imagination?

Imagine this. Sadam was indoctrianting them in his hatred of the US. While he was getting rich from the oil for food program and his people were suffering, he was telling them that it was our fault. bin Laden wrote it into his fatwa. For the love of god stop showing your ignorance and listen to what the radicals themselves are saying.

Right now there are MILLIONS of Iraqis who are glad we got rid of Saddam. They want us to leave but they want us to make sure they are safe first. Those are the people we need to be concerned about. Not the thousands of terrorists who would hate us no mater what we do.

I apologize if I confused you.

AJ asked quite simply, how we are creating terrorism with the war in Iraq.

I thought my answer was succinct, on point and amazingly enlightened!

After all, the four year old minds that I speak of no nothing of Saddam, bin Laden and the whole sordid, steaming pile that is the middle east. The unfortunate among them are growing up to know only war or civil war if you prefer. War brought to them courtesy of the infidel crusader. This is what many, many of them will be taught. We can all bank on it.

Your point perhaps, is that these kids didn't need another reason to hate us and were going to grow up to hate us anyway so what's the difference?

My point is that we gave them another reason anyway, regardless. We spread a mountain of fertilizer on already fertile terrorist soil. If 101 new recruits spring up where 100 would normally have sprouted then the war in Iraq grew a terrorist and AJ is wrong.

:helmet:

[AJ_Skins]

Gimme a little credit. I know they don't like the jews. When I went to search for what you were saying, I found an article that differed, so I asked for a link.

Nice David Duke reference, funny.

Oh yeah...you didn't know they invited David Duke?

Yeah let's trust Bin Laden :doh: :laugh:

They will tell you the way they explain their motivations to themselves. Are you naive enough to take that at face value???

Tell you what Dr. Freud...you keep pretending you can read their minds, but stay out of the way of those of us who take them at their word. Deal?

Bin Laden: We want America to elect Democrats.

Republicans: See? Bin Laden wants you to elect Democrats.

American People: crap, we should elect Republicans.

Bin Laden: (laughing hysterically) muahaha, gullible Americans! This is exactly what I wanted!!!

No, they really do hope we elect Democrats. Certainly Iran does. It will give them the time and freedom they need to go nuclear without interference.

My argument to this is that many of the higher ups are rich and have plans for a truly universal Islamic state, there people we cannot affect, however, most of the recruits and the manpower of Al-Qaeda and other operations comes from the poor and the uneducated. The planners are pretty smart and resourceful people, however the major populous of these organizations are recruited through religious schools like madrasses who impart these beliefs on them from an early age. If we can fix public schools and work to move the mainstream poor away from madrasses the pool of potential terrorists dwindles somewhat. We cant affect the fundementalist extremists in the middle or upper echelons of Al-Qaeda however we can work to undermine the support base by helping wean the poor population off of madrasses which will in turn help provide an alternative to the extremist views that they are currently being saturated in by the Madrass system.

Nope. The people actually carrying out the (often suicide) operations have been middle-class professionals. I know this is extremely difficult for people who have been indoctrinated into thinking everything is economic in nature to accept.

[Reic]

The war in Iraq is not brooding any more terrorists than there already would have been, in my opinion. It may have sped up the process a little more, but not dramatically increased the numbers. Terrorism will always be a part of the modern day world, and no one will be able to get rid of it. Kids are taught religious garbage from the extremeists at a young age, and it grows on them.

Each and every single "terrorist" has their on base motives, therefor it will be impossible to fully understand the group as a whole. Sure there will be similarities in their line of thinking, but, each also has their own point-of-view.