Levi1 Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 PeterMP, Interesting post, though I'll admit my eyes glaze over a bit at the mention of thermodynamics vis a vi evolution. My original post was intended to point out that it is categorically incorrect to characterize evolution as 'random'. While the mutations may be random, the accumulation of only beneficial mutations, passed on to progeny, is decidedly non-random. As one famous biologist noted, evolution is no more random than a sieve is. You seem to agree with this, and, indeed, it is not my own idea but accepted fact. If I'm reading you correctly, you seem to think that selection is directly related to energy. You write: "So something in selection provides energy? Certainly, the ability of the organism to produce more energy is part of its long term survival and therefore would be evolutionarily advantageous"--I'm not sure where you are getting this. Simply put, a trait will be selected for if it provides an advantage to the critter in procreating; while this may be related to providing energy, the two are not synonymous. Further, it seems you think the idea of evolution being non-random somehow does not 'square' with the law of thermodynamics ( if I'm reading you correctly)...and I'm not sure how to answer that...the law of thermodynamics relates only to closed systems, so doesn't seem particularly applicable here. (When I hear arguments like that it reminds me of those who say the laws of physics preclude the WTC from falling as it did.) So, in the end, I'll have to confess to not understanding your point ( the preoccupation with thermodynamics). But that's okay; I still appreciate that you took the time to post something so thoughtful. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revallenjr Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 I assume god can speak any language known to man--I'm just curious as to how he did so before language. Techboy had an interesting answer--that the knowledge of god is already written upon our hearts, but . . . I thought I read in the bible somewhere that those not exposed to the word of god could still go to heaven even if they hadn't excepted jesus as their personal savior--because if they have never heard of Jesus, how can they be expected to follow that path? That is not exactly what the bible says. I think you might be refering to Romans chapter 1. The Jews had the Law and that is how they became familiar with God. The Gentiles on the other hand did not have the law. But Romans 1:19-20 Paul says, "Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisable qualities his eternal pawer and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." He thus communicates to us through creation. Hebrews 1 says that God use to speak through prophets but now he speaks to us through his Son. Who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. (We know that as the Bible). Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabR Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Paul, in the book of Romans, writes that God's Law is written on the hearts of men and women, so in that sense, no actual language is required, I guess. then there is no need for Jesus IMO Grace covers those who cannot understand. is there any Biblical foundation for this ? Remember Adam gave all the animals names. Therefore language was always here since the beginning. so all the animals discoverd in the new world had already been named by Adam, and the scientic name was really the name Adam choose for them ? What we have today is completely accurate only in the King James Version, which is the only translation based completely on the Textus Receptus Greek text. (Which is the most accurate Greek text.) KJV Isaiah 13:21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there KJV Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the ****atrice' den. So do you believe in Satyrs and ****atrices becuse they are in the completely accurate KJV ? Retarded people, young children, and the like all go to heaven if they die. They are not able to exercise faith in order to believe and God is not unjust to send them to Hell for rejecting Him is there any Biblical foundation for this ? So in Joshua[10:40] when "Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded." Are you saying that the retarded people and the kids God ordered killed all went to Heaven ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 then there is no need for Jesus The rest of Romans deals with the fact that people all fall short of following said Law, and thuis the necessity of Jesus. But then, you already knew that. so all the animals discoverd in the new world had already been named by Adam, and the scientic name was really the name Adam choose for them ? Binomial Nomenclature was coined by Linnaeus in the 18th century. Even Skinsfan51 doesn't think the Earth is that young. Scientific name? Come on... :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Just to be clear ( I've no intention of getting involved in an actual creation vs. evolution debate) there is no such thing as "random evolution"--this is a common misunderstanding (especially amongst those in the 'anti-evolution' crowd). Evolution is decidely "unrandom", that is why traits are described as having been 'selected for'. You may say that mutations are random, but the accumulation of beneficial traits (mutations) is, by definition, not random. This is a rather important point.What I meant was any form of evolution driven by random mutations aka anything not "purposed". Potatoe Potato.And it certainly is not a Christian vs. evolution thing--millions, if not billions, of Christians understand evolution and do not see it as a threat to their faith-based beliefs. The Catholic church among them...the anti-evolution crowd is particular to America.I don not see it as a threat either, I just happen to believe its wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 PeterMP, Interesting post, though I'll admit my eyes glaze over a bit at the mention of thermodynamics vis a vi evolution. My original post was intended to point out that it is categorically incorrect to characterize evolution as 'random'. While the mutations may be random, the accumulation of only beneficial mutations, passed on to progeny, is decidedly non-random. As one famous biologist noted, evolution is no more random than a sieve is. You seem to agree with this, and, indeed, it is not my own idea but accepted fact. I'm sorry, but we are talking about different levels. Just to extend your analogy to make the point. Your Biologist (do you have his name?) SELECTED a sieve as his method of seperation. The act of SELECTING a method is nonrandom and would give you a nonrandom result. The comparision to evolution is that there is an unknown force SELECTING the environmental pressures by which biolgocial organisms are being seperated (e.g. evolution is occurring). I already noted that if you believe in that (and to me that would seem to be directed evolution), then that's fine, but there is no proof of such a system and would essentially be impossible to disprove and so is beyond the realm of science. If you quit eating, you are still not a closed system (you can breathe and drink), but you will die essentially because your body will not have the energy to fight energetically favorable increases in entropy. You eat to obtain energy to fight increases in entropy (i.e. to mantain order). Just like I can isolate your body from the rest of the universe, processes occurig w/ in a biological system can also be isolated. Within a biological system, I can tell you if a reaction is spontaneous given the change in enthalpy of the reaction and the change in entropy of the reaction. Both of those are thermodynamic terms. Even in a biological system a reaction that requires a large decrease in entropy rarely proceeds (enthalpy tends to be less important) unless coupled to a process that results in a large increase in entropy. That is energy coming from somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 via touch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 via touch? Dude, you might wanna change that photo :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Dude, you might wanna change that photo :laugh: We aren't censoring Michelangelo. Pee pee or no pee pee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 We aren't censoring Michelangelo. Pee pee or no pee pee He's not representing us males well with that shrinky-dink of his :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 We aren't censoring Michelangelo. Pee pee or no pee pee ...waiting for the, "dude, how gay..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 I don not see it as a threat either, I just happen to believe its wrong. Wrong as in moral wrong? Seriously though, what does this statement mean? Do you not believe the whole thing, 100% of it?? Do you believe in DNA? Natural selection? Do you believe in bacteria? I'm sorry to come after you like that, but I know you know better than to make statements like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Do you not believe the whole thing, 100% of it?? Do you believe in DNA? Do you believe in bacteria? To take a brief break, and in keeping with the Jumbo tradition: Do you believe in magic in a young girl's heart How the music can free her, whenever it starts And it's magic, if the music is groovy It makes you feel happy like an old-time movie I'll tell you about the magic, and it'll free your soul But it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock and roll If you believe in magic don't bother to choose If it's jug band music or rhythm and blues Just go and listen it'll start with a smile It won't wipe off your face no matter how hard you try Your feet start tapping and you can't seem to find How you got there, so just blow your mind If you believe in magic, come along with me We'll dance until morning 'til there's just you and me And maybe, if the music is right I'll meet you tomorrow, sort of late at night And we'll go dancing, baby, then you'll see How the magic's in the music and the music's in me Yeah, do you believe in magic Yeah, believe in the magic of a young girl's soul Believe in the magic of rock and roll Believe in the magic that can set you free Ohh, talking 'bout magic Do you believe like I believe Do you believe in magic Do you believe like I believe Do you believe, believer Do you believe like I believe Do you believe in magic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headexplode Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 To take a brief break, and in keeping with the Jumbo tradition: Do you believe in magic in a young girl's heart How the music can free her, whenever it starts And it's magic, if the music is groovy It makes you feel happy like an old-time movie I'll tell you about the magic, and it'll free your soul But it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock and roll If you believe in magic don't bother to choose If it's jug band music or rhythm and blues Just go and listen it'll start with a smile It won't wipe off your face no matter how hard you try Your feet start tapping and you can't seem to find How you got there, so just blow your mind If you believe in magic, come along with me We'll dance until morning 'til there's just you and me And maybe, if the music is right I'll meet you tomorrow, sort of late at night And we'll go dancing, baby, then you'll see How the magic's in the music and the music's in me Yeah, do you believe in magic Yeah, believe in the magic of a young girl's soul Believe in the magic of rock and roll Believe in the magic that can set you free Ohh, talking 'bout magic Do you believe like I believe Do you believe in magic Do you believe like I believe Do you believe, believer Do you believe like I believe Do you believe in magic I believe! I believe in magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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