how did god communicate before language?

[headexplode]

Zguy's morality thread set me to thinking about god's word, and how that word may have been spread before language was invented.

If the bible is the word of god (and we could expand this conversation beyond christianity) and that is how god has made himself known to his creation, how did god communicate with human beings before the development of language?

Is it possible there was some purer form of communication before language existed, some kind of direct line that may have been lost? Is it possible that language can act as a sort of barrier between man and god?

Further, how do different translations of god's word lead to errors in interpreting god's word?

[techboy]

I'm going to answer from a Biblical point of view, since that represents my understanding of God.

Paul, in the book of Romans, writes that God's Law is written on the hearts of men and women, so in that sense, no actual language is required, I guess.

However, the Old Testament portrays language from the beginning of Creation, so I'm not sure that, Biblically speaking, there was ever a time that men did not have language.

[headexplode]

However, the Old Testament portrays language from the beginning of Creation, so I'm not sure that, Biblically speaking, there was ever a time that men did not have language.

This is what confuses me. I always felt the bible suggests there was no time before language, but as has been discussed elsewhere, the bible has its own logic, sometimes. Historically, we know there was a time before language, and I wonder how that fits in with the biblical view.

[Shallow1]

I'm going to answer from a Biblical point of view, since that represents my understanding of God.

Paul, in the book of Romans, writes that God's Law is written on the hearts of men and women, so in that sense, no actual language is required, I guess.

However, the Old Testament portrays language from the beginning of Creation, so I'm not sure that, Biblically speaking, there was ever a time that men did not have language.

Also remeber God scattered poeple all over the globe (post tower of Bable I believe) and then they spoke in diffrent tounges (launguages),....before that it could be asumed there was one common launguage that originated with the creation of man or the phrase (diffrent tounges/launguages) would not have been neccesarry.

Just a thought.

[headexplode]

Also remeber God scattered poeple all over the globe (post tower of Bable I believe) and then they spoke in diffrent tounges (launguages),....before that it could be asumed there was one common launguage that originated with the creation of man or the phrase (diffrent tounges/launguages) would not have been neccesarry.

Just a thought.

I assume god can speak any language known to man--I'm just curious as to how he did so before language. Techboy had an interesting answer--that the knowledge of god is already written upon our hearts, but . . .

I thought I read in the bible somewhere that those not exposed to the word of god could still go to heaven even if they hadn't excepted jesus as their personal savior--because if they have never heard of Jesus, how can they be expected to follow that path?

[rincewind]

I thought I read in the bible somewhere that those not exposed to the word of god could still go to heaven even if they hadn't excepted jesus as their personal savior--because if they have never heard of Jesus, how can they be expected to follow that path?

This is kind of like the South Park episode where they questioned whether or not retarded people could go to heaven. They are exposed to God but don't always have the mental capacity to 'accept' Jesus as their savior.

[techboy]

This is what confuses me. I always felt the bible suggests there was no time before language, but as has been discussed elsewhere, the bible has its own logic, sometimes. Historically, we know there was a time before language, and I wonder how that fits in with the biblical view.

Some Christians believe that the humans of the Bible, which they call "Homo Divinus" (humans in the image of God), had ancestors who were not. When these ancestors developed language is moot, because these are not Homo Divinus, and therefore not subject to salvation or God's Law or all those things entail (like animals). Part of the transition to Homo Divinus would include language.

Other Christians would argue that there was never a time when humans didn't have language, and good luck proving that there was, because such a thing can only be inferred from evolution. There's certainly no fossil record supporting such (and there couldn't be).

I assume god can speak any language known to man--I'm just curious as to how he did so before language. Techboy had an interesting answer--that the knowledge of god is already written upon our hearts, but . . .

I thought I read in the bible somewhere that those not exposed to the word of god could still go to heaven even if they hadn't excepted jesus as their personal savior--because if they have never heard of Jesus, how can they be expected to follow that path?

While not specifically in the Bible, there are those that believe that those who have never heard of Jesus (what Christians call "Specific Revelation") can be saved by faith in the knowldge in their hearts and Creation (what we call "General Revelation").

So, it's not really a "but". For these people, it's more a "because".

[Popeman38]

Lightning bolts.

And fire and brimstone....

[AsburySkinsFan]

The same way he does today.

[Corcaigh]

Txt msgs

and burning bushes

[AsburySkinsFan]

how did god communicate with human beings before the development of language?

My guess is that you're talking about written language, and not spoke right?

Is it possible there was some purer form of communication before language existed, some kind of direct line that may have been lost? Is it possible that language can act as a sort of barrier between man and god?

Is it possible that it still exists today?

Further, how do different translations of god's word lead to errors in interpreting god's word?

a lot, hence the push for learning and reading from the original languages; i.e. Biblical Greek, and Biblical Hebrew which are both dead languages as far as contemporary usage.

[headexplode]

Some Christians believe that the humans of the Bible, which they call "Homo Divinus" (humans in the image of God), had ancestors who were not. When these ancestors developed language is moot, because these are not Homo Divinus, and therefore not subject to salvation or God's Law or all those things entail (like animals). Part of the transition to Homo Divinus would include language.

Other Christians would argue that there was never a time when humans didn't have language, and good luck proving that there was, because such a thing can only be inferred from evolution. There's certainly no fossil record supporting such (and there couldn't be).

While not specifically in the Bible, there are those that believe that those who have never heard of Jesus (what Christians call "Specific Revelation") can be saved by faith in the knowldge in their hearts and Creation (what we call "General Revelation").

So, it's not really a "but". For these people, it's more a "because".

Interesting--I've never heard there were humans not subject to god's law and salvation. Maybe Australopithecus?

I think the inference is pretty strong that there was a time before language was created. Or at least written language. I guess there is no real way to know whether there was a time before spoken language. That seems to me to be the most logical conclusion, though. I believe language is a creation of man, and that it's function is utilitarian in nature. But maybe even grunts and moans can be considered language. Does god speak in grunts and moans?

[nace14]

he gave jack bauer a gun and said "make them learn, jack, make them learn." jack understood.

[headexplode]

My guess is that you're talking about written language, and not spoke right?

Both. I believe there was a time before language was created. Grunts and moans do not count. There is no way to express complex ideas and philosophies through guttural noises.

Is it possible that it still exists today?

Sure it is. I just wonder whether or not language creates a barrier. There is a difference sometimes with what we mean to say and what we actually say. Language is imperfect, as man is imperfect, and I wonder if this causes problems when trying to communicate with god.

[Corcaigh]

Both. I believe there was a time before language was created. Grunts and moans do not count. There is no way to express complex ideas and philosophies through guttural noises.

I think you have to agree what your assumptions are before you have this discussion.

Could the first humans talk?

Could they understand complex ideas?

Does a deity need to communicate an idea as (relatively) complex as salvation and sin to an early human with limited cognitive abilities?

Is language really necessary for a deity to communicate a simple idea?

[AsburySkinsFan]

I assume god can speak any language known to man--I'm just curious as to how he did so before language. Techboy had an interesting answer--that the knowledge of god is already written upon our hearts, but . . .

I thought I read in the bible somewhere that those not exposed to the word of god could still go to heaven even if they hadn't excepted jesus as their personal savior--because if they have never heard of Jesus, how can they be expected to follow that path?

Romans 2:13-16 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God's sight, but te doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

There is much debate about this passage, IMO I don't believe that it presents a Universalist (all go are saved) idea as some suggest, simply because if a fallen nature is assumed (as I believe scripture presents) then these right actions by those who have not heard the Gospel are more or less the exceptions rather than the rule, but they simply show that God has imprinted each of us with the way that were created to live and some times that actually shows through our fallen-ness.

Now the question inevitably turns to whether or not those others will be saved, and I for one err on the side of grace for this, but in the end the decision is not ours to make, instead our responsibility is to live the Gospel and show the way of Christ to all and make disciples of all people for Christ.

[AsburySkinsFan]

This is kind of like the South Park episode where they questioned whether or not retarded people could go to heaven. They are exposed to God but don't always have the mental capacity to 'accept' Jesus as their savior.

IMO Grace covers those who cannot understand.

[Shallow1]

Here is your biblical explination......knew it was in the Bible...lots of good stuff in there.

Gen 11: 1-9

1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, [a] they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."

5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."

8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel [c] —because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

Ok, lets go back to the begining.....

Gen 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

Gen 1:5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night."

Gen 1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."

Ok, so right from the begining it is implied God "said", witch would indicate language.

lets move on,....

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;"

Gen 2:23 The man said,

"This is now bone of my bones

and flesh of my flesh;

she shall be called 'woman,"

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'"

Now in Genisis 2-3 we have multiple people (adam/eve) God and Satan all communicating via..."spoke,said,commanded"....witch would imply a universal language.

So according to the bible from the begining of creation there was language, fair enough?

[headexplode]

I think you have to agree what your assumptions are before you have this discussion.

Could the first humans talk?

Could they understand complex ideas?

Does a deity need to communicate an idea as (relatively) complex as salvation and sin to an early human with limited cognitive abilities?

Is language really necessary for a deity to communicate a simple idea?

I don't think the first human could talk, not in the way we do, not in a created language. They probably "talked" in the sense that could make noises and point and jump up and down, but I don't think they "talked" like you or I do.

I don't think they could understand complex ideas, because I think you need language to express and develop complex ideas.

Your third question is sort of like what rincewind mentioned, about the South Park episode. If one can't understand, then why bother?

I'm not sure that language is necessary for a deity to communicate with its creation. In fact, I wonder if language makes it more difficult to do so, knowing that language is imperfect as it was created by man.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Both. I believe there was a time before language was created. Grunts and moans do not count. There is no way to express complex ideas and philosophies through guttural noises.

*edit*

But there is the ability to express right and wrong with them, and even without them. There is also the use of images to express things, as far as I can understand humans have always had the ability to communicate, even if that would not be understood as "language".

Sure it is. I just wonder whether or not language creates a barrier. There is a difference sometimes with what we mean to say and what we actually say. Language is imperfect, as man is imperfect, and I wonder if this causes problems when trying to communicate with god.

I'm not sure that language from God creates a barrier, in fact I think that language itself was developed to break down the barriers that existed prior to being able to express complex ideas and philosophies. Sure there is a difference between what we mean to say and how people understand us, but this is only amplified when there is no language. And yes language is imperfect, but this is why dialogue is important in that through the dialogue exchange we can more closely understand what is being communicated to us, and this takes place best through communication.

[headexplode]

Here is your biblical explination......knew it was in the Bible...lots of good stuff in there.

Gen 11: 1-9

1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, [a] they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."

5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."

8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel [c] —because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

Ok, lets go back to the begining.....

Gen 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

Gen 1:5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night."

Gen 1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."

Ok, so right from the begining it is implied God "said", witch would indicate language.

lets move on,....

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;"

Gen 2:23 The man said,

"This is now bone of my bones

and flesh of my flesh;

she shall be called 'woman,"

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'"

Now in Genisis 2-3 we have multiple people (adam/eve) God and Satan all communicating via..."spoke,said,commanded"....witch would imply a universal language.

So according to the bible from the begining of creation there was language, fair enough?

This does seem to indicate there was some sort of "language" from the beginning, but that doesn't seem to jive with my understanding of the evolution of the human species (granted, it is limited).

[Zguy28]

Interesting--I've never heard there were humans not subject to god's law and salvation. Maybe Australopithecus?

Or Homo Erectus, something like that.

From a Biblical standpoint, the first "homo divinus" as techboy puts it, being Adam, had spoken language at least. Genesis says he named the animals, which implies some sort of at least rudimentary language, probably similar to "click" language from Africa.

[headexplode]

Or Homo Erectus, something like that.

From a Biblical standpoint, the first "homo divinus" as techboy puts it, being Adam, had spoken language at least. Genesis says he named the animals, which implies some sort of at least rudimentary language, probably similar to "click" language from Africa.

But there were no humans before Adam, right?

[Cyber Pimp]

God created language. He had to, to be able to communicate with Adam. Remember Adam gave all the animals names. Therefore language was always here since the beginning.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Language is not necessary to communicate: