Pats FO vs Skins FO

[fwo40]

The Skins are the divorced dad who takes you for ice cream every Sunday in his new sports car.

:laugh: That is perfect.

[jbooma]

The Skins are the divorced dad who takes you for ice cream every Sunday in his new sports car.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[DjTj]

Philly doesn't use their cap, and they bring on players like TO for no reason.

TO? No reason? Do Stinkston and Trash ring a bell? ... and the signing for TO is strikingly similar to a certain team's recent trade for Randy Moss ...

Seattle has been good but never have had a consistently good Defense or WR's that can catch balls.

Is all your information from 3 years ago? Seattle has been near the top of the league in sacks the past couple years, and their leading receiver was New England's own former Super Bowl MVP Deion Branch.

SD recently has turned more into NE and it shows. They get rid of their QB and are even better last year. The problem with SD they don't have the coach making all the right calls.

They aren't "turning into" New England. San Diego has been operating the same way for years - remember they traded picks with the Falcons in 2000 and drafted LaDanian Tomlinson.

Denver's issue has been similar to the skins instead of getting a younger QB they felt a veteran is what they needed along and it proved them wrong. Denver also doesn't have much talent at WR, which has always hurt them.

Did you miss the fact that Denver drafted Jay Cutler last year? They took a chance on Brian Griese a while back, but he didn't turn out like Tom Brady ... their deficieny at quarterback is not for lack of trying.

NE has the trifecta right now the best Coach, best football FO person, and a great QB. I do feel even if Brady went down they would lose some ground but not as much as many on this board feel. NE is just smarter then eveyrone in every facet. They also have an owner who deferrs to his football people

Okay, now you just sound like a crazed Patriot fan ...

NE also ends up with like 7 to 9 draft picks every year, way more then most.

I think 7.9 is the average number of picks (7 rounds plus compensatory picks), so 7-9 would be average, not way more than most.

The other thing they have that we don't is players who want to restructure to win, not to get paid. That right there is the largest difference between the teams.

Tom Brady is the only player I have heard of who restructured to win ... Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Willie McGinest, Deion Branch, Adam Vinatieri, and many more of their stars have refused restructures and left the team.

Look, I agree that the Skins run a somewhat dysfunctional operation, but the Patriots aren't really doing anything that special if you look around the league.

[skinsfanno9]

However, what is the difference between New England's FO and Philadelphia? Seattle? Philadelphia? San Diego? Denver? There are a dozen other NFL teams that do things pretty similar to New England, but the Patriots get all the hype because Tom Brady fell into their lap.

I remember quite a few people (myself included) being agast at getting rid of Bledsoe to start a complete unknown. I think its possible that there was some expertise involved in picking Brady and the rest that perhaps doesn't exist at the same level in other organizations. Expertise and good decision making processes.

[DjTj]

I remember quite a few people (myself included) being agast at getting rid of Bledsoe to start a complete unknown. I think its possible that there was some expertise involved in picking Brady and the rest that perhaps doesn't exist at the same level in other organizations. Expertise and good decision making processes.

Huh? Complete unknown? They didn't release Bledsoe until after Tom Brady was named the Super Bowl MVP. I don't think it took a lot of expertise to make the move at that point.

[jbooma]

Tom Brady is the only player I have heard of who restructured to win ... Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Willie McGinest, Deion Branch, Adam Vinatieri, and many more of their stars have refused restructures and left the team.

Look, I agree that the Skins run a somewhat dysfunctional operation, but the Patriots aren't really doing anything that special if you look around the league.

yes they are because the can live without paying their players big deals, who else can say that?? no one

Moss is restructuring, Dillon took less etc... players go there to win not get paid. If Peyton Manning is the best QB (and he is) then why aren't players running to Indy to play there, the difference is NE.

Just because you lead the league in sacks does not mean you have a great D :doh:

[fansince62]

I don't want to defend the Redskins' FO, which clearly does things differently, and in many cases, more poorly than other NFL teams.

However, what is the difference between New England's FO and Philadelphia? Seattle? Philadelphia? San Diego? Denver? There are a dozen other NFL teams that do things pretty similar to New England, but the Patriots get all the hype because Tom Brady fell into their lap.

I would say that the maybe the only difference between the Patriots and the Broncos is that Denver never found a franchise quarterback in the sixth round, and that has as much to do with luck as anything else. There is no magic formula in New England ... the Redskins don't necessarily need to be doing things more like New England - we could just maybe stand to do things a little bit more like the whole rest of the league.

please...you're over simplifiing. the Patriots finally "got it right" and haven't dropped the ball since

- they have a coach who may very well be the Joe Gibbs of his generation...just like our Joe...he does seem to win with a shifting cast of characters

- the coaching staff there does seem to be the cats meow. it is NE assistant coaches who seem to be regularly sought out as head coaches

- the Pats found LBs who exactly fit their system...this just didn't happen

- the Pats built a DL that is a bedrock of their defense through the draft. they have kept it in tact (at least the key players)

- even when they are competing for the conference championship they seem to stock high draft picks. point being that they prosper even when by way of design of the system they should not be advantaged

- they do not/have not, on average, made the costly mistakes the Skins have made when it comes to FAs. and they seem to get a return from their FAs like Dillon that the Skins have not (i.e., critical cogs in the way to a SB)

sure....a team gets players either through FA, draft/unsigned players or trades. all teams use those 3 avenues. it's how they use them that counts and the Pats seem to have mastered a formula that melds their personnel assessment, cap strategy and football schemes better than other teams. they have achieved some formula that allows them to sustain quality football EVEN during the down years. they ARE doing something qualitatively different from other teams.

[drowland]

Tom Brady is the only player I have heard of who restructured to win ... Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Willie McGinest, Deion Branch, Adam Vinatieri, and many more of their stars have refused restructures and left the team.

Look, I agree that the Skins run a somewhat dysfunctional operation, but the Patriots aren't really doing anything that special if you look around the league.

Thing is those guys won SBs with the Pats, then wanted to get paid. Law and McGinest were getting older and were deemed replaceable. Milloy and Branch were making waves and got cut or traded. The Pats moved on.

Look at the players they sign in FA. They take less to play in NE because they want the ring. Roosvelt Colvin, Adalius Thomas, Rodney Harrison etc. Players come the Skins for one thing, $$$.

[jschlesi]

The real difference between the Skins and Pats is that they value draft picks more than skins.

And they know the value of those 3-5th rounders that add depth, play hard, are versatile, and eventually become starters.

They have a defined system and draft players that fit that system. We have no GM and no defined methodology since Marty ( which also was our best draft)

[Om]

yea...I do...you know...the stuff you and others constantly trumpet: it's a team sport. the same reason Brady fought so hard to keep Branch. the intangibles (lockerroom presence, leadership) that go beyond just physical skills.

So for the record. When you say "it's a team sport," the clear implication, int the context of this particularly conversation, is that you make no distinction between teams that have 1st ballot HOF QB's and teams that do not. Correct?

[DjTj]

please...you're over simplifiing. the Patriots finally "got it right" and haven't dropped the ball since

I agree with that completely. The Pats got it right without making any big splashy moves, so once everything came together (including a little bit of luck), it was a success that could be sustained. The two most recent Super Bowl champions, the Steelers and Colts, also did the same thing and compiled winning records and multiple playoff appearances over a decade.

I really don't want to sell the Patriots short. They are the only dynasty of the salary cap era. They have an excellent coaching staff and a hall of fame quarterback. They have a very stable and successful front office that is responsible for much of their success.

...I just really don't believe that their front office has some kind of magic formula that is astronomically better than the rest of the league. Maybe they are the best, but they are not the best by leaps and bounds. There are a lot of other teams building through the draft and making smart free agent moves, and there are a lot of other teams that have had success over the past few years.

The Redskins are not one of those teams. When we look at other teams for ways to improve, I think it would be foolish to only compare ourselves to New England as if that is the only way to win championships. In fact, since some things can't be reproduced (Tom Brady and Bill Belichek), trying to emulate New England may be a completely futile exercise. It would make a lot more sense to look around the league and realize that the Redskins aren't just falling short of New England; we are doing things worse than 20 other teams in the league as far as drafting for depth or making smart free agent signings.

[dent19]

Still the question is what are we doing wrong not to have better drafts and still not put a competitive team on the feild. Our scouting team is bad or the guys making the decisions arent listening to those guys. Either is fixable now and will Dan make the choice to change....

Pats make hard stances on their players and it always seems to benifit the team. We make some of the same stances and it almost always hurts the team. Some of this is coaching, and some are due to poor staffing. How many core players do we need to be successful? How many good character guys push us over the top?

I'm always going to want and expect the best for the team. If I dont see it I will speak on it.

Again, I think this may be the best offseason we've had in years, but damn if that means we're SB ready. And nothing can take away the bad choice made either by coachin or owners. We will pay for that forever and some of it will be deserved. It's time to look at why we've ended up here. I see others making progress with there moves and yet we cant get the train on the track. If your winning, it means your doing something right. If your losing, it means your doing not enough right. Theres a stark difference in the approch taken by our team. And its now showing that we not doing it right. I love Dans enthusiasm to do what it takes to get us in the dance, but he's got the wrong shoes on.....AND MY FEET HURT!!!!

[Aston]

The Skins are the divorced dad who takes you for ice cream every Sunday in his new sports car.

:laugh: And the Patriots are what, Dr. Phil?

[fansince62]

So for the record. When you say "it's a team sport," the clear implication, int the context of this particularly conversation, is that you make no distinction between teams that have 1st ballot HOF QB's and teams that do not. Correct?

no...I am saying that anyone who thinks that first ballot HOFers do it all on their own or even reach that exulted status independent of the team they happened to land up with are likewise building a strawman.

for the record...while Brady is great...he's not great in the same way Elway was. He does not seem to carry his team quite as much as Elway did. Brady's surrounding cast has made a difference. Brady is great, in part, because of the teammates he had around him and a coaching staff that is better than the competition's....all things the Skins are presently working toward.

[fansince62]

I agree with that completely. The Pats got it right without making any big splashy moves, so once everything came together (including a little bit of luck), it was a success that could be sustained. The two most recent Super Bowl champions, the Steelers and Colts, also did the same thing and compiled winning records and multiple playoff appearances over a decade.

I really don't want to sell the Patriots short. They are the only dynasty of the salary cap era. They have an excellent coaching staff and a hall of fame quarterback. They have a very stable and successful front office that is responsible for much of their success.

...I just really don't believe that their front office has some kind of magic formula that is astronomically better than the rest of the league. Maybe they are the best, but they are not the best by leaps and bounds. There are a lot of other teams building through the draft and making smart free agent moves, and there are a lot of other teams that have had success over the past few years.

The Redskins are not one of those teams. When we look at other teams for ways to improve, I think it would be foolish to only compare ourselves to New England as if that is the only way to win championships. In fact, since some things can't be reproduced (Tom Brady and Bill Belichek), trying to emulate New England may be a completely futile exercise. It would make a lot more sense to look around the league and realize that the Redskins aren't just falling short of New England; we are doing things worse than 20 other teams in the league as far as drafting for depth or making smart free agent signings.

we can find common ground here!...although I'm willing to bet that were we privy to the Pats inside deliberations and how they THINK we might have a different pov. but...we don't...so we won't!

[Aston]

Om, me and you have gone back and forth on this issue at great length. I clearly know where you stand on the Tom Brady vs. NE FO issue. But in light of this thread, here's another good what if scenario.

Right now, we'd all agree that in the scheme of things, New England is a top 5 team and we're a bottom 5 team. Bottom 6 if you want to split hairs. If we traded Jason Campbell for Tom Brady, straight up, which team, us or the Patriots, is closer to the Super Bowl by the end of next season (end of 2008)?

[Om]

no...I am saying that anyone who thinks that first ballot HOFers do it all on their own or even reach that exulted status independent of the team they happened to land up with are likewise building a strawman.

Not sure anyone's actually done that with any degree of seriousness. Dan Marino, Archie Manning, Sonny Jurgensen are not hard examples to conjure up. Regardless, as you know since you actually tend to read what I write when we talk (unlike some), you know I tend to see hings in a little less stark terms than that, and have not done so with Tom Brady and NE.

What I have maintained, and continue to, is that the degree to which NE is being help up as the Gold Standard of FO's is far out of proportion given that everything they have done that has "earned" them that status began, traceably and inarguably, to the day Tom Brady took over from Drew Bledsoe.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3672672&postcount=10

I continue to await a more persuasive explanation. If you've got one, Occam and I are all ears.

for the record...while Brady is great...he's not great in the same way Elway was. He does not seem to carry his team quite as much as Elway did. Brady's surrounding cast has made a difference. Brady is great, in part, because of the teammates he had around him and a coaching staff that is better than the competition's....all things the Skins are presently working toward.

Your opinion is noted.

[Om]

Right now, we'd all agree that in the scheme of things, New England is a top 5 team and we're a bottom 5 team. Bottom 6 if you want to split hairs. If we traded Jason Campbell for Tom Brady, straight up, which team, us or the Patriots, is closer to the Super Bowl by the end of next season (end of 2008)?

Not real familiar with the logical fallacies, are we my friend?

Your unfortunate slip notwithstanding ... it's a preposterous question to try to give a serious answer to. How many variables you think there are that would have to be answered first--10? 25? Tell you what ... you put in the work to name a half dozen of them (I'll even start you off: do I get to project Campbell's development forward or do I have to plug in his numbers from the last 7 games of '06?), and maybe I'll take the time to do some roster comparisons, personality assessments, etc.

Unless you want to save us both some time and just go ahead and tell my what YOU think would happen. "Cuz I suspect that's what you're looking for here.

[ouvan59]

The real difference between the Skins and Pats is that they value draft picks more than skins.

And they know the value of those 3-5th rounders that add depth, play hard, are versatile, and eventually become starters.

They have a defined system and draft players that fit that system. We have no GM and no defined methodology since Marty ( which also was our best draft)

Let's put that theory to the test. From 2000 to 2005 here are the Patriots picks in rounds 3 through 5:

2000

3rd - JR Redmond RB (No longer on team)

4th - Greg Randall OT(No longer on team)

5th - Dave Stachelski TE (No longer on team)

2001

3rd - Brock Williams CB (No longer on team)

4th - Kenyatta Jones OT (No longer on team)

4th - Jabari Holloway TE (No longer on team)

5th - Hakim Akbar OLB (No longer on team)

2002

4th - Rohan Davey QB (No longer on team)

4th - Jarvis Green DE (No longer on team)

2003

4th - Dan Klecko DT (No longer on team)

4th - Asante Samuel CB (starter)

5th - Dan Koppen C (starter)

2004

3rd - Guss Scott SS (No longer on team)

4th - Dexter Reid SS (No longer on team)

4th - Cedric Cobbs RB (No longer on team)

5th - PK Sams WR (No longer on team)

2005

3rd - Ellis Hobbs CB (started 12 games last year)

3rd - Nick Kaczur OT (started 9 games)

4th - James Sanders FS (backup)

5th - Ryan Claridge OLB (No longer on team)

Anybody feel industrious and compare that to what we did with our 3-5 picks including what we got in trade and see how we fared?

[Om]

Perhaps in addition to putting the Rounds 3-5 Theory to the test, we could also impose on brother jschlesi to verify that he did in fact intend to say

We have no GM and no defined methodology since Marty (which also was our best draft)

... about the 2001 draft:

1. Rod Gardner

2. Fred Smoot

4. Sage Rosenfels

5. Darnerian McCants

6. Mario Monds

Just wonderin'.

[fansince62]

Not sure anyone's actually done that with any degree of seriousness. Dan Marino, Archie Manning, Sonny Jurgensen are not hard examples to conjure up. Regardless, as you know since you actually tend to read what I write when we talk (unlike some), you know I tend to see hings in a little less stark terms than that, and have not done so with Tom Brady and NE.

What I have maintained, and continue to, is that the degree to which NE is being help up as the Gold Standard of FO's is far out of proportion given that everything they have done that has "earned" them that status began, traceably and inarguably, to the day Tom Brady took over from Drew Bledsoe.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3672672&postcount=10

I continue to await a more persuasive explanation. If you've got one, Occam and I are all ears.

Your opinion is noted.

OM...the problem is you assume what has to be proven...that the Pats could not (or would not have) won without Brady. But how do we know that Bellichek et al are not just like Joe Jackson Gibbs circa 1980s...able to to win with different QBs?

There is the possibility that the NE FO was stellar and had built a great team - all the parts were in place - but that Bledsoe had to get out of the wayfirst. I don't know. Just saying that this isn't a binary problem and that when it comes to a team sport like football....multiple things have to go right - especially today when technology, planning, information superiority, etc., can overcome individual brilliance.

[Om]

OM...the problem is you assume what has to be proven...that the Pats could not (or would not have) won without Brady. But how do we know that Bellichek et al are not just like Joe Jackson Gibbs circa 1980s...able to to win with different QBs?

There is the possibility that the NE FO was stellar and had built a great team - all the parts were in place - but that Bledsoe had to get out of the wayfirst. I don't know. Just saying that this isn't a binary problem and that when it comes to a team sport like football....multiple things have to go right - especially today when technology, planning, information superiority, etc., can overcome individual brilliance.

I take back what I said about your actually reading (or better, processing) what I say when we talk about this stuff. In this instance anyway.

[DCSaints_fan]

I think I've got it: Its the kickers.

The Redskins can never seem to acquire a decent kicker. The Patriots let their star kicker go without having a decent replacement - and then boom next season they're right back in the mix with a pretty good kicker.

Its the kickers, guys. The kickers.

[jbooma]

Let's put that theory to the test. From 2000 to 2005 here are the Patriots picks in rounds 3 through 5:

2005

3rd - Ellis Hobbs CB (started 12 games last year)

3rd - Nick Kaczur OT (started 9 games)

4th - James Sanders FS (backup)

5th - Ryan Claridge OLB (No longer on team)

Anybody feel industrious and compare that to what we did with our 3-5 picks including what we got in trade and see how we fared?

First off did we get any starters in the 2005 draft from the 3rd to 5th round? Some of the guys who were drafted in 2003, 2004 etc were parts of the teams that got them to the playoffs but are not there now, which is more then we can say.

[Aston]

Not real familiar with the logical fallacies, are we my friend?

Your unfortunate slip notwithstanding ... it's a preposterous question to try to give a serious answer to. How many variables you think there are that would have to be answered first--10? 25? Tell you what ... you put in the work to name a half dozen of them (I'll even start you off: do I get to project Campbell's development forward or do I have to plug in his numbers from the last 7 games of '06?), and maybe I'll take the time to do some roster comparisons, personality assessments, etc.

Unless you want to save us both some time and just go ahead and tell my what YOU think would happen. "Cuz I suspect that's what you're looking for here.

Nice redirect.

Of course it's preposterous when answering it seriously. It's not about carefully calulating all the variables and personality assesments. It's simply questioning the difficulty of Brady's job, compared to Campbell's. Having a consistently dominant defense, and somelike like Pioli who can keep the roster stocked with players who aren't required to be superstars, but just fill a role, makes the life of a quarterback much easier, compared to someone like Campbell, or even Manning, who's asked to more than make up for the shortcomings of an underachieving defense or an injury somewhere in the roster that all but cripples a teams chances to continue to be successful.

Take nothing away from Brady. He earned every one of those rings. But it's hard to say that the system around which Brady plays benefits him significantly, just as his unwavering heroics in big games glorifies the success of the FO.

Bottom line is we'll never know until Brady leaves. But to answer my own question, I'd have to say that I feel that it'd be much easier for Campbell to continue to auto-pilot a ship that's been sailing in the right direction for the better part of a decade than it would be for Brady to magically turn around a franchise that's breaking NFL futility records on defense.

I think many of the stars were already aligned in New England when he got there, though Brady was the missing piece of the puzzle they needed to squeeze by those tight games. His playoff numbers are amazingly efficient, though not mind boggling like a typical Manning day. He won the MVP of Super Bowl XXXVI despite throwing for only 145 yards and 1 score.

I think Brady's success depends on the system just as the system's success depends on Brady. And while I haven't given up hope in Washinton's system, it's hard not for me not to have just a hint of envy when looking at New England, from finding Brady in the 6th round, to the way they consistently overcome injuries.

All that said, I look at their off season this year and predict they fall flat on their face. Why? I've seen this movie about a year ago, it doesn't end well.