I need to know something in a poll form.

[TheLongshot]

This D is a couple of injuries away from the worst in the league.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was true of most defenses. Depth isn't what is used to be in this league.

Anyways, I like our depth now better than last year. DE is the only place where I feel we are really weak as far as depth goes.

Jason

[dfbovey]

I think it depends on how we get to that ranking. If the line is shredded with four or five injuries, or if the players brought in to fix the actual, not perceived, problems fail and the same problems exist, it's likely to require a specific evaluation as to cause again.

The front office doesn't get a pass IMO, when injuries happen to the defensive line this coming year. It's an old line with a history of injury... and despite that they ignored the position in free agency and in the draft. So injuries would be no excuse when they had the opportunity to upgrade over old injury prone players, and didn't.

[Art]

Sorry Art that is the problem. Unlike other teams we can't survive from injuries because we lack quality depth at most positions. The reason why is we don't have picks 2-4 in the draft which is where you get your backups, not FA.

This D is a couple of injuries away from the worst in the league.

Define what depth is and who has it, JB.

If I look at running back, I think I have a good prospect in reserve and a guy who happens to be a 1000-yard back. Seems to have some depth there. Offensive line has five guys who have started for other teams in the NFL in reserve I think. Only four project to make it. Would that be depth because they have been starters, or a lack of depth because they've proven to no longer be capable of being your permanent starter?

Our defensive line has nine guys on the roster who have started for this very team. That would be some reflection of depth and use and knowledge of the system. Corner has two guys in reserve who are starting level players. Safety has multiple reserve players who have started for us and other teams.

LB has prospects, but no experience. Depth because they are young and could evolve as future starters, or no depth because they have never played and could suck? I don't know.

I define depth as having experience behind starters capable of playing at a starting level. That's it. I don't define depth as having the future All Pro team in reserve in guys who've never played a down. I think where you have those spots, you have "potential" but no actual. If I'm building a team, I try to acquire recent starting players everywhere I can to have as my primary depth in case someone gets hurt so I at least KNOW a guy CAN start in the NFL in such a situation.

We seem to have reasonably fair depth by that measure. We have poor depth by the measure of having reasonably certain future starters on the bench who are young and haven't yet played. How do you define it?

[Art]

The front office doesn't get a pass IMO, when injuries happen to the defensive line this coming year. It's an old line with a history of injury... and despite that they ignored the position in free agency and in the draft. So injuries would be no excuse when they had the opportunity to upgrade over old injury prone players, and didn't.

A player with a chronic injury is typically planned for and covered against. Players who've suffered a sprained ankle, or bad shoulder or tweaked knee, but have not shown chronic, repetitive injury, tend to be viewed as players you expect to have in your lineup. This may not be great but most teams don't plan for guys who don't have chronic problems to be out of the lineup. You can't. You lack roster space to account for "the possibility" guys will get hurt.

But, in our case, we have prepared for that well. We have Wynn, a starter for us, in reserve, and Evans, another starter also in reserve, and Golston, a starter in reserve. Guys who've actually played within the system and started -- two on great defenses one on a bad one -- to replace unexpected injury ahead of them. Teams can't carry 20 defensive linemen. They can carry 8 or 9. All nine of ours have started for us at some point, a couple for being thrown to the fire last year due to injuries. You'd prefer to replace those reserve players with guys who've never played a down in the NFL. That the concept as to how to get better in your mind?

[Neophyte]

Art, it must be nice to blindly drink the Kool-aid and believe. I wish I could still do it with the level of totality that you exhibit here. I just can't. Not anymore.

Williams defense was great in 04 (the year our starting Dline was healthiest), less great but still pretty darn good in 05 (some injuries on the line) and it stunk last year when we juggled our line and experienced more injuries yet.

With the tragic personnel decisions made on the defensive side of the ball I am not really sure we can trust Williams and his team of coaches to make these kind of decisions anymore. Sorry, but the facts here support me. Williams did the most with his defense in his first year here when he had to work with mostly someone else's groceries and his Dline stayed pretty healthy.

So you can load the questions all you want but the proof is in the pudding and Williams pudding has so far gotten a bit worse every year. Maybe it will all turn around this year. Only time will tell. However, I frankly have the right to remain skeptical until such time as I see results on the field.

[dfbovey]

All nine of ours have started for us at some point, a couple for being thrown to the fire last year due to injuries. You'd prefer to replace those reserve players with guys who've never played a down in the NFL. That the concept as to how to get better in your mind?

No, of course Art... I believe that the team should replace these old players with eroding skills and injury history, with more old players so that we can just continue the status quo.

I believe the long term success of this defense is dependant on finding good young defensive linemen to come in and compete with these old guys for not only roster spots, but starting positions. If you have an old starter, you should have a young promising prospect behind him that could possible carry the torch. This balance doesn't exist in our defensive line. It's not good for the future and with the prospects of continued injury problems... it's not exactly great for the here and now either.

[jbooma]

Our defensive line has nine guys on the roster who have started for this very team. That would be some reflection of depth and use and knowledge of the system. Corner has two guys in reserve who are starting level players.

4 of the 9 are injury prone and some of the others may not even be playing in the league and for the cb's we have one that was injured all last year, another that can't catch or cover the double moves and then we have Jimoh being the backup

You have to love that depth :doh:

Out of those 9 how many sacks did all of them have last year? Not many.

If you look at the OL behind Wade who do we have that is a decent backup?? No one.

[Art]

Neo,

Can you point to a single place, anywhere in this thread, where I suggest our ails are cured, clearly and we'll return to past form? You won't find it so don't look. As you won't find it, and as I've stated I think we're going to be a bad team this year for reasons that deal with coach/player interaction more than anything else, can you express to me where I've shown Kool-Aid lip?

I've asked, and you haven't bothered to answer, whether it's possible Williams and company know what plays they are calling and know who did and who did not do their job and what they need to make the system they try to employ go better than someone else. Will they make the correct personnel choice in all cases where the what is answered? Nope.

But, you already know today the answer to what our primary issues were last year according to the people who actually do know. Unless you think you know more than they do about the system they run, you can remain skeptical about the players we added, preferring others at those spots, but you can't remain all that dubious about what the determination as to weakness was, because, I doubt you think you know that better than the staff does. Right?

[TheLongshot]

With the tragic personnel decisions made on the defensive side of the ball I am not really sure we can trust Williams and his team of coaches to make these kind of decisions anymore. Sorry, but the facts here support me. Williams did the most with his defense in his first year here when he had to work with mostly someone else's groceries and his Dline stayed pretty healthy.

Actually, probably about half the defense were his own guys. 3 defensive linemen, 1 LB, 1 CB, and eventually, 1 S

The D-line was mostly his creation.

Certainly, there are questions about Williams and his defense, and if they can rebound from an awful year last year. It isn't a sure thing and there is always the possibility that they have gotten the wrong personnel to fix things. But, Williams does have a good track record and he does deserve the chance to make things right this year.

Jason

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I wouldn't be surprised if that was true of most defenses. Depth isn't what is used to be in this league.

Anyways, I like our depth now better than last year. DE is the only place where I feel we are really weak as far as depth goes.

Jason

thats not true though, tons of teams have injuries to their players and can back them up. look at the bears, eagles, patriots and their depth. its no shocker that all 3 of these teams flourish with the draft. DL depth is suspect all around, i think weve successfully addressed LB and DB this off season, but with the age and injury history of our DL, its pretty safe to say that unless they are completely injury free for the season, we are going to have serious issues up front.

[edgun88]

Maybe we didnt pick up any D-lineman because they all suck.

[skinsfanno9]

Maybe we didnt pick up any D-lineman because they all suck.

Yep, for 10 years in a row, all the Dlineman in the first four rounds have all sucked apparently... :Wink:

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I wouldn't be surprised if that was true of most defenses. Depth isn't what is used to be in this league.

Anyways, I like our depth now better than last year. DE is the only place where I feel we are really weak as far as depth goes.

Jason

It certainly crippled the Bears when they lost the best Defensive Tackle in football.

Except, it didn't.

[TheLongshot]

If you look at the OL behind Wade who do we have that is a decent backup?? No one.

Actually, this is the perfect example of Art's post. What do you know about the backups OL? Probably very little. Do you know if any of those guys are decent backups? Probably not. I certainly don't.

But, Bugel probably does. He, in fact, has gone on record for being very comfortable that he has guys he's comfortable will fit in with what he wants to do.

Now, do you know more about his line than Buges does?

Jason

[Oldskool]

I'll let you know next year when we pick 4th-10th in the draft, our run defense is 25th or worse and fans and media alike call for one of the top coaches heads.

We did nothing to upgrade the D-line, who's starters median age is over 30 years old, we again selected a secondary player and went with the BPA and not at a needed position.

As I said before, we threw a tarp over the hole in the roof, hope that it holds and went and bought the new sportscar instead.

[jbooma]

Actually, this is the perfect example of Art's post. What do you know about the backups OL? Probably very little. Do you know if any of those guys are decent backups? Probably not. I certainly don't.

But, Bugel probably does. He, in fact, has gone on record for being very comfortable that he has guys he's comfortable will fit in with what he wants to do.

Now, do you know more about his line than Buges does?

Jason

We don't but what we have seen when one of the starters goes down is the line does not play as well. I will say I am not as scared about the OL depth as the DL depth which is horrible.

The big question mark on the OL is who is replacing Dockery and are they going to be just as good.

We had 19 sacks last year, Warren Sapp had 11.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Now, do you know more about his line than Buges does?

The Buges from 1984 or the Buges from today? I'm not 100 percent convinced that Buges' mind is firing on all cylinders these days.

[TheLongshot]

It certainly crippled the Bears when they lost the best Defensive Tackle in football.

Except' date=' it didn't.[/quote']

Actually, it did hurt them. They went from a great defense to a pretty average one. They were fortunate that Grossman had some pretty good games down the stretch, because they needed most of those points to win those games.

Jason

[Loxley]

If we blindly go along with what our coaches do and implicitly trust in everything they say and do then we would have absolutely nothing to discuss on this message board. It would be just a load of fanbois slapping each other on the back and congratulating ourselves on a job (that we had no part in) well done, even when it was bad.

I find the poll a little biased and generally quite sarcastic. Its a loaded question at best. If it is trying to prove a point (which it seems to be) then what point is that? The coaches know best? Sure they do, I picked that option. However I feel the point of a message board is to do exactly what this poll almost shuns us from doing - be armchair coaches. Thats what we are here for, to discuss and analyse our team and suggest what WE would do. I doubt theyd ever take notice of that but at least it gives a place to exercise our right to an opinion.

Heres one for free speech.

Other than that, great thread!

[TheLongshot]

We don't but what we have seen when one of the starters goes down is the line does not play as well. I will say I am not as scared about the OL depth as the DL depth which is horrible.

Funny, Wade came in and the line didn't miss a beat. If you are speaking of 2005, the backups are completely different than what was on that team.

The big question mark on the OL is who is replacing Dockery and are they going to be just as good.

It sounds like from what Gibbs said yesterday that it is pretty much Wade's job to lose.

We had 19 sacks last year, Warren Sapp had 11.

Art pretty much has gone over that, so I'm not going to rehash his argument. He may be right. We'll have to see.

In any case, do you really see any lineman out there who would get us 11 sacks, while meeting the philosophy of the line of stopping the run first? I don't.

Jason

[TheLongshot]

thats not true though, tons of teams have injuries to their players and can back them up. look at the bears, eagles, patriots and their depth. its no shocker that all 3 of these teams flourish with the draft. DL depth is suspect all around, i think weve successfully addressed LB and DB this off season, but with the age and injury history of our DL, its pretty safe to say that unless they are completely injury free for the season, we are going to have serious issues up front.

You can't have great depth everywhere. There is always going to be a hole someplace where, if you lose a guy, it is really going to compromise what you are going to do. That is especialy true if the player is a great player who makes a difference on your team.

It hurts even more so if you aren't a great team in the first place.

Anyways, I think most of our problems had little to do with injuries and a lot to do with the actual play on the field. When the players can't execute the plan on the field, you have a problem.

Jason

[fansince62]

Actually, this is the perfect example of Art's post. What do you know about the backups OL? Probably very little. Do you know if any of those guys are decent backups? Probably not. I certainly don't.

But, Bugel probably does. He, in fact, has gone on record for being very comfortable that he has guys he's comfortable will fit in with what he wants to do.

Now, do you know more about his line than Buges does?

Jason

nope...I don't know. but I also know these guys have put out all sorts of rah rah pap in the past to keep fans energized......the "keep it in house" mindset many favor around here.....

[Tommy-the-Greek]

Art, I haven't read the entire thread since this is my first day back after a long hiatus. I would like to know what is the average cost of a starting and or quality/rotating back up DT and the same for DE? How does this compare to the same costs for the back seven?

I wonder if simple dollars and cap ramifications had more to do with depth decisions this offseason than any other factor.

Let me ask you a question. If there was a slightly better/younger player available at DT or DE that had the same cap dollars/ ramifications as an exisiting player. Wouldn't we have attempted to acquire that player?

Maybe it wasn't that a need wasn't identified in the front four but, quite simply put there wasn't any more money allocated to the front four?

[Dirk Diggler]

Even good coaches can do this. Gregg Williams' mentor is one of those people. Buddy Ryan set the world on fire with the 46 when it first came into the league. By the time he got to Philly' date=' it was already showing some cracks, but he just happened to have arguably the greatest front four of all time running it. You could have run any system with those guys and made the playoffs. By the time he got to Arizona and Tennessee, he was making it impossible for his teams to win games.

I honestly think that our defense had two issues last year: schematic and talent. I think we have addressed the talent issue to some degree this year - though our D-line still terrifies me. The schematic I am concerned about still. [/quote']

I think it's fair to question Ryan/Williams ability as head coaches to win games. But to dog their scheme and ability to assemble top defenses is foolhardy.

Consider:

Ryan was in Tennessee for 1 season - 1993. That team won 12 games, rode his defense to an 11 game winning streak, and allowed the 4th fewest points in the league.

Ryan then went to Arizona as head coach and his defense allowed the 4th fewest points in the league and the 2nd fewest yards. They won 8 games that year with guys like Jay Schroeder and Jim McMahon at QB. McMahon was about 8 years past his prime and JS never had a prime.

The roof caved in the next season, they won 4 games and sucked on both sides of the ball. Then again, just how far can you get with Stoney Case and a 50 year old Dave Kreig at QB? Ryan was out and that's the last time he coached.

Williams successes as a defensive mind are well-documented - when he left Buffalo and Tennessee, his defenses were top 5 units. His defense was Super Bowl caliber here in 2004, top 10 and playoff caliber in 2005. Good enough to literally win a playoff game by itself. Good enough to go toe-to-toe with a Super Bowl caliber offense in Seattle in it's home stadium. GW didn't win in Buffalo but it's arguable just how much of Ryan/Williams lack of success was due to crappy QBs. That's for another time.

The point remains - are you judging GW and Ryan on the totality of their careers or are you judging them on their last season.

................

Man, it's crazy what one bad season can do. Some fans just lose all hope.

I frequently have to sift through posts telling me about Gregg Williams arrogance, how he's hated everywhere he goes, how his system is wack, and how eventually he gets run out of town because his players tune him out. None of this is true but it doesn't stop any of you. Frankly, I think it comes down to one of two things - complete ignorance or you simply don't like the guy based on what you perceive as his personality.

[jbooma]

Art pretty much has gone over that, so I'm not going to rehash his argument. He may be right. We'll have to see.

In any case, do you really see any lineman out there who would get us 11 sacks, while meeting the philosophy of the line of stopping the run first? I don't.

Jason

Well I don't know what he said but with out blitzing we can't generate a pash rush, and that is an issue. The other question I want to ask both of you who on our DL stopped the run last year didn't we have the worst rushing defense in the NFL??