Of the DTs Branch or Okoye or ?

[cphil006]

our priority list:

1) Calvin Johnson

2) Trade down

3) LaRon Landry

4) Jamaal Anderson

that's it.... no DT

[Veretax]

More like

1) make half assed attempt to get CJ so the team actually trading up gets screwed over on draft picks

2) Look at trade down options at 6, but if nothing pallatable comes out draft

3) Amobi Okoye

4) Jamal Anderson

5) LaRon Landry

6) Alan Branch

in that order

[atloldskin]

I have always thought everything was a smokescreen by the Skins and they draft Branch at #6.

[paredskinsfan]

I have to say Okoye, just a gut instinct but from what I've seen and read, I think this kid will be in opposing offenses nightmares for a long time in the NFL

[KDawg]

I have always thought everything was a smokescreen by the Skins and they draft Branch at #6.

Stress fractures make that one of the most questionable moves they can possibly make.

[Stormy]

Stress fractures make that one of the most questionable moves they can possibly make.

It would make an enormous difference. However, we have *no idea* if it's true... and I'm guessing very few 6'6 330 athletes have run a 5.0" 40 yard dash, and posted an 8'11" broad jump, with multiple stress fractures.

[KDawg]

Even with that, Okoye is still a better pick in my opinion. Much bigger upside, noted intelligence, hard worker.

For the record, he's an entry on stress fractures from WebMD.com:

What Is a Stress Fracture?

Stress fractures are some of the most common sports injuries. They are tiny breaks in the bone, usually caused by repetitive stress from activities like running. Although they can be quite painful, they usually heal themselves if rested for a few months.

Many different sports raise the risk of stress fractures. Activities that require running and jumping may cause fractures in the legs or feet. More than half of all adult and adolescent stress fractures occur in the lower leg bones. 25% of adult fractures are in the metatarsal bones of the feet (the middle bones).

Other sports that require repetitive movements -- like pitching or rowing -- can result in stress fractures in other parts of the body.

Stress fractures are much more likely to develop in people who have just started a new exercise or abruptly stepped up the intensity of their work out. When the muscles aren’t conditioned, they tire easily and can’t support and cushion the bones as well. Increased pressure is exerted directly on the bones, which can lead to a fracture.

Stress fractures seem to be more common in women, especially in women who do not have regular menstrual cycles. A reduction in estrogen can cause osteoporosis, or weakening of the bones. Teenagers may also be at higher risk, since their bones aren’t fully hardened.

Any anatomical abnormalities -- like fallen arches -- can distribute stress unequally through the feet and legs. This raises the risk of stress fractures. So can poor-quality equipment, like worn-out running shoes.

Unfortunately, stress fractures tend to recur. About 60% of people who have a stress fracture have also had one previously.

It's not impossible to perform well with stress fractures. It's just a pain in the ass and takes alot of perserverence. With someone with a lazy reputation (ala Branch) I wouldn't gamble on him.

[Stormy]

Even with that, Okoye is still a better pick in my opinion. Much bigger upside, noted intelligence, hard worker.

With someone with a lazy reputation (ala Branch) I wouldn't gamble on him.

Agreed on the stress fracture risk. The rest seems fairly meaningless to me. Branch has ZERO reputation of being 'lazy', and he is both a fantastic academic student (at the nation's #1 public university), and was noted by one of the nation's elite Defensive Ccoordinators as being perhaps the most intelligent football players he's ever coached (and he has coached dozens of future NFL All-Pros). What's Okoye's bigger upside?? He's 2.5 years younger than Branch, he'll never have Branch's size, height, wingspan for batting down passes, and he doesn't even seem to really be that much quicker or faster for a far smaller, penetrating DT.

People buy into a combine or Pro-Day rumor, then neglect to read the available scouting materials, and just assume that Branch is dumb, lazy, unmotivated... when it's controverted by every piece of evidence imaginable.

I LIKE Okoye, and he and Anderson are my #2 and #2A choices, but why slander Branch's rep in the process.

[KDawg]

Agreed on the stres fracture risk. The rest seems to be meaningless to me. Branch has ZERO reputation of being 'lazy', and he is both a fantastic academic student (at the nation's #1 public university), and was noted by one of the nation's elite Ddefensive Ccoordinators as being perhaps the most intelligent football player's hes ever coached (and he has coached dozens of future NFL All-Pros). What's Okoye's bigger upside?? He's barely 2 full years younger than Branch, he'll never have Branch's size, height, wingspan for batting down passes, and he doesn't even seem to really be that much quicker or faster for a far smaller, penetrating DT.

People buy into a combine or Pro-Day runor, then neglect to read the available scouting materials, and just assume that Branch is dumb, lazy, unmotivated... when it's controverted by every piece of evidence imaginable.

I LIKE Okoye, and he and Anderson are my #2 and #2A choices, but why muslander Branch's rep in the process.

I never said Branch was dumb. If you read above, I didn't have much of an idea what Branch's intelligence was. I said I wasn't sure so I couldn't judge it.

Branch took plays off. I watched a few Michigan games. He just didn't always give it his all. That's laziness. Maybe our definitions differ.

Okoye's upside is he can add more weigh to his frame (although yes, he probably won't be Branch's size, ever). He may not be heavy, but you don't need to be to play 2-gap. Once again, people put too much stock on size. His broad jump is a full four inches more than Branch's and broad jump is a great indicator of explosive power. Four inches is a large difference. The other part to Okoye's upside is he can play DT and he should be able to take snaps at defensive end. That shores up two needs. I don't care how well Branch is coached, he'll never be able to play defensive end unless he loses 10-15 pounds... In which case I don't understand why we'd take him over Okoye anyways...

[GURU]

Actually, I think Branch DID play DE in some of Michigan's defensive sets.

One thing I wish I could clear up once and for all: Neither Okoye OR Branch would be a "two-gap" tackle in Gregg Williams defense. Gregg Williams 4-3 base set has one-gap responsibilities, as a rule. When a DT is over the nose, that tackle is playing a 1-technique, more often then not. That is, the tackle is shading to one side of the center and charging through the gap on that side. The result is usually a double team by the guard and center, essentially tying up two blockers. That is NOT the same as playing two-gap, where the nose tackle is lining up directly over the center and responsible for covering the gaps on either side.

Now, there might be adjustments made at the line, depending on what the offense does, requiring a lineman to cover two gaps on occasion. But as a rule, Williams wants his defensive linemen to charge into their gaps, make violent contact with blockers, and force ball carriers to run into unblocked defenders. It's not about tyingup blockers, it's about dictating the flow of action.

That being said, both Okoye and Branch are capable of doing that. Both have been constantly double-teamed. But Okoye seems to be a little more explosive. A little more versatile, and Williams LOVES to move his D-linemen around to create confusion.

AND size does NOT equate to strength. In fact, according to NFL.com, Okoye is STRONGER than Branch. Okoye bench pressed 475lbs to Branch's 455. They did the same number of 225lbs reps (33). And, most importantly, because leverage is the game, Okoye notched a 605lb squat to Branch's 530lb.

Okoye is NOT the "3-technique" or "one-gap" defensive lineman many are characterizing him as. At Louisville, he played over the nose most of the time. He was constantly double-teamed. He may have not face the same quality of competition that Branch did on a game-by-game basis, but look at what he did at the Senior Bowl. He demolished the best senior offensive linemen every conference had to offer.

I think Branch can be very good, but not special. I think Okoye could be special.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Actually, I think Branch DID play DE in some of Michigan's defensive sets.

One thing I wish I could clear up once and for all: Neither Okoye OR Branch would be a "two-gap" tackle in Gregg Williams defense. Gregg Williams 4-3 base set has one-gap responsibilities, as a rule. When a DT is over the nose, that tackle is playing a 1-technique, more often then not. That is, the tackle is shading to one side of the center and charging through the gap on that side. The result is usually a double team by the guard and center, essentially tying up two blockers. That is NOT the same as playing two-gap, where the nose tackle is lining up directly over the center and responsible for covering the gaps on either side.

Now, there might be adjustments made at the line, depending on what the offense does, requiring a lineman to cover two gaps on occasion. But as a rule, Williams wants his defensive linemen to charge into their gaps, make violent contact with blockers, and force ball carriers to run into unblocked defenders. It's not about tyingup blockers, it's about dictating the flow of action.

That being said, both Okoye and Branch are capable of doing that. Both have been constantly double-teamed. But Okoye seems to be a little more explosive. A little more versatile, and Williams LOVES to move his D-linemen around to create confusion.

AND size does NOT equate to strength. In fact, according to NFL.com, Okoye is STRONGER than Branch. Okoye bench pressed 475lbs to Branch's 455. They did the same number of 225lbs reps (33). And, most importantly, because leverage is the game, Okoye notched a 605lb squat to Branch's 530lb.

Okoye is NOT the "3-technique" or "one-gap" defensive lineman many are characterizing him as. At Louisville, he played over the nose most of the time. He was constantly double-teamed. He may have not face the same quality of competition that Branch did on a game-by-game basis, but look at what he did at the Senior Bowl. He demolished the best senior offensive linemen every conference had to offer.

I think Branch can be very good, but not special. I think Okoye could be special.

You should post more often.

[KDawg]

Actually, I think Branch DID play DE in some of Michigan's defensive sets.

In college, he did. I'm saying in the pros he's not going to play DE.

One thing I wish I could clear up once and for all: Neither Okoye OR Branch would be a "two-gap" tackle in Gregg Williams defense. Gregg Williams 4-3 base set has one-gap responsibilities, as a rule. When a DT is over the nose, that tackle is playing a 1-technique, more often then not. That is, the tackle is shading to one side of the center and charging through the gap on that side. The result is usually a double team by the guard and center, essentially tying up two blockers. That is NOT the same as playing two-gap, where the nose tackle is lining up directly over the center and responsible for covering the gaps on either side.

It's hard for me to understand why people don't understand that. And, even if he did need to play in a 2-gap, size still doesn't matter, your ability to play the position does. Size is alot like a 40 time. Just because you're a bit smaller doesn't mean you can't play. It may be a little bit tougher and you'll have to be a bit better than others who are bigger, but it doesn't fully indicate anything.

[Stormy]

I never said Branch was dumb. If you read above, I didn't have much of an idea what Branch's intelligence was. I said I wasn't sure so I couldn't judge it.

Branch took plays off. I watched a few Michigan games. He just didn't always give it his all. That's laziness. Maybe our definitions differ.

Okoye's upside is he can add more weigh to his frame (although yes, he probably won't be Branch's size, ever). He may not be heavy, but you don't need to be to play 2-gap. Once again, people put too much stock on size. His broad jump is a full four inches more than Branch's and broad jump is a great indicator of explosive power. Four inches is a large difference. The other part to Okoye's upside is he can play DT and he should be able to take snaps at defensive end. That shores up two needs. I don't care how well Branch is coached, he'll never be able to play defensive end unless he loses 10-15 pounds... In which case I don't understand why we'd take him over Okoye anyways...

For starters, please forgive my atrociously worded last post, as I hurriedly reeled it off typing faster than I could think, while I was headed out the door. Typos galore.

I took your comment that Okoye's advantages were "much bigger upside, intelligence, hard worker" to indicate that these were areas of superiority to Branch (especially when combined with the earlier allusion to Branch's lack of effort). I didn't mean to mischaracterize your position.

To cut through the red tape of a side-by-side attribute comparison of Okoye vs. Branch, I think the fact is that neither is superior to the other in terms of talent, upside, production. Rather, they are simply two very different prototypes for different molds of DTs, both equally spectacular in their own realm. Both possess the versatility to play multiple positions on the line, and have done so with distinction(Branch played a significant portion of his career at DE, not to mention NT, 3 DT, RDT, LDT etc...).

If you believe that the Redskins scheme and personnel need the complement of a 2 gap widebodied DT who completely closes-off rushing lanes, who has the capacity to implode the center of the pocket, who occupies extra blockers to free up his companions on the DL and on blitzes, while still having the burst off the snap to create pressure and the speed to close the deal in the backfield versus QBs/RBs... then you probably prefer Alan Branch. I believe that Branch is exactly what Griffin/Golston need paired with them, what Carter needs to assure 1-on-1s on the outside, and what our LBs and DBs need to create fluid lanes to blitz versus the pass and run.

If you believe the Redskins need a smaller 1 gap DT who can penetrate quickly off the snap, who can pressure the QB directly from the center of the line, whose high motor and agility allow him to get into the opposing backfield for TFLs, and who commands doubleteams mostly on passing, rather than rushing, downs... then, you probably believe Amobi Okoye is the best fit for our defense.

Personally, I believe it's a healthy Alan Branch (a potentially more athletic and versatile verson of John Henderson) that this defensive scheme and personnel need. However, that is followed closely by Okoye and Anderson as the next choices, as all 3 would be great upgrades and exceptional fits.

[Stormy]

Guru:

That's a fantastic post, but I think that people are alluding to Branch as a 2 gap DT, and Okoye as a 1 gap based upon their technique coming out of college, not based upon how they'll line up for GW. Branch displayed his prowess as a 2 gap, precisely by ceding his instinct/desire to immediately penetrate off the snap in his senior year at UM. It has been posited (noted in his NFL.com profile) that it was a conscious decision by Branch to discipline himself to reign in his upfield surge, in favor of occupying blockers at the point of attack.

I agree with your interpretation of GW's DL scheme requiring blockers to rapidly shoot gaps and draw contact off the snap, however, I differ in your opinion that Okoye is designed to do it as effectively as Branch. Branch excels at getting into the gaps and closing them off permanently, attracting a great deal of OL attention in the process; meanwhile Okoye is noted more for immediate burst and rapid penetration into the backfield, as opposed to his ability to hold and then close these lanes. Just a minor distinction, I think. I favor Branch in this regard.

Sure, Okoye plays with more leverage due to his height, and possibly demonstrates more leg power, but Branch is noted for exceptional ability to prevent OLs from getting under his pads despite his height. He has great technique with his hands and arms, and doesn't allow blockers to get into him the way they can at times with Okoye. As scouts say, when a guy like Branch "drops anchor" nothing is going to move him.

I think Okoye can be very special, too. I just prefer Branch's attributes for our system and personnel.

[HoyaSkins28]

i would love to trade down to 9 if quinn is still there and take okoye, definatley over branch

[moondog]

Branch.

I love Okoye, but not for our system, nor for our personnel. We already have a fairly productive veteran in the mold of Okoye (Griffin), and a young project who has shown some flashes in the...

Amen, almost exactly my sentiments about what he brings to the table. While there are obviously some unadressed problems in his game, everyone has their flaws, I believe that he, more than any other player in this draft, has the ability to make the biggest upgrade in our team period although Calvin Johnson is arguable...that being said, if Johnson dropped to us I would immediately trade down a pick or two, gain additional picks, and still pick Mr. Branch.

[floydanthony]

good player!! branch, move down 1 or may 2 spots only !! get the second round pick we need!! only move down if we get a second in return! branch will be ther or draft the de from florida moss!! and we be set with a 2nd round pick we need now....

[GURU]

That's a fantastic post, but I think that people are alluding to Branch as a 2 gap DT, and Okoye as a 1 gap based upon their technique coming out of college, not based upon how they'll line up for GW.

If you watch games or film, you would see that Branch and Okoye play the SAME techniques. They both play over the nose in a 4-3 defensive alignment. Okoye DID NOT PLAY THE 3-TECHNIQUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Branch excels at getting into the gaps and closing them off permanently, attracting a great deal of OL attention in the process; meanwhile Okoye is noted more for immediate burst and rapid penetration into the backfield, as opposed to his ability to hold and then close these lanes.

If you watch Okoye play, you would see that he is constantly double-teamed and he simply destroys them much of the time. You should prefer that a defensive lineman NOT stay blocked, even if double teamed. I mean, don't you WANT defensive linemen tackling ball carriers in the backfield? That's what the best defensive linemen do, not "hold-up" blockers.

Ultimately, "occupying" blockers is a byproduct of penetration. If a guy can't be blocked by one guy, then obviously he's going to draw additional attention.

I don't get it. If one guy is known for holding his ground when double-teamed, and another guy is known for defeating double-teams and making plays in the backfield, some of you prefer the hold-your-ground guy?

Now, I don't except the characterization of Branch as simply a "hold-your-ground" guy. But from what I've seen with my own eyes and just about every scouting report I've read, Okoye uses his hands better and plays with more leverage -- more consistantly.

The Skins don't need a "two-gap" tackle because they don't play a two-gap scheme. What they need is someone who plays tough, consistently, over the center. I'm not saying Branch couldn't do the job. He could. I just think Okoye could do it better.

[Mufumonk]

Even with that, Okoye is still a better pick in my opinion. Much bigger upside, noted intelligence, hard worker.

For the record, he's an entry on stress fractures from WebMD.com:

It's not impossible to perform well with stress fractures. It's just a pain in the ass and takes alot of perserverence. With someone with a lazy reputation (ala Branch) I wouldn't gamble on him.

Branch played every snap of every game at Michigan. Hard to do that if you have a reputation of being lazy.

[Mufumonk]

If you watch games or film, you would see that Branch and Okoye play the SAME techniques. They both play over the nose in a 4-3 defensive alignment. Okoye DID NOT PLAY THE 3-TECHNIQUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you watch Okoye play, you would see that he is constantly double-teamed and he simply destroys them much of the time. You should prefer that a defensive lineman NOT stay blocked, even if double teamed. I mean, don't you WANT defensive linemen tackling ball carriers in the backfield? That's what the best defensive linemen do, not "hold-up" blockers.

Ultimately, "occupying" blockers is a byproduct of penetration. If a guy can't be blocked by one guy, then obviously he's going to draw additional attention.

I don't get it. If one guy is known for holding his ground when double-teamed, and another guy is known for defeating double-teams and making plays in the backfield, some of you prefer the hold-your-ground guy?

Now, I don't except the characterization of Branch as simply a "hold-your-ground" guy. But from what I've seen with my own eyes and just about every scouting report I've read, Okoye uses his hands better and plays with more leverage -- more consistantly.

The Skins don't need a "two-gap" tackle because they don't play a two-gap scheme. What they need is someone who plays tough, consistently, over the center. I'm not saying Branch couldn't do the job. He could. I just think Okoye could do it better.

At Michigan it was his JOB to hold his ground against double teams. That's what he was coached to do. Occupy blockers so that your LB's can roam freely and make plays. Was it a glamorous job at Michigan? No. But he did it with dedication and he excelled at it against some of the more dominant OL's in NCAA.

[Da_Truth]

Branch for the reasons Stormy presented so well on page 1.

Okoye having more sacks is because Branch is routinely double teamed. Although they are both DTs they play different positions. We need the 2 gap version.

I'm hoping we can trade down a short way and pick up a second in order to draft a DE too. But then I hope for a lot of things that don't happen

Just incase you didnt know, Okoye commands double teams on a normal basis. And from the reports I read on him, He's a run stuffer who also got 8 sacks last season.

[Stormy]

If you watch games or film, you would see that Branch and Okoye play the SAME techniques. They both play over the nose in a 4-3 defensive alignment. Okoye DID NOT PLAY THE 3-TECHNIQUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you are defining the malleable roles of Branch and Okoye in a much more cut-and-dried manner than is appropriate. Just for example, Okoye played NT for a span during his career at Louisville when Petrino temporarily went to a modified version of the 3-4 (Okoye was not considered ideal in this scheme). Meanwhile, Branch has spent the majority of entire seasons lined up in every role from NT in the 3-4 Michigan used when he was a freshman, to a DE in his sophomore season, to his span as a 3-technique in Michigan's 2006 4-3 alignment. In fact, here's a quote from Branch during his NFL Combine Interview:

""Nosetackle my freshman year, defensive end my sophomore year and defensive three technique my junior year. I love all of them. As long as it's on the d-line, I feel comfortable. When I learn defenses, I try to learn all three just in case you get caught out of place and you've got to switch positions. I'm not going to get caught not knowing what I'm supposed to do. I feel anywhere along that defensive line is home for me," Branch said.

The point being, there is a variance of opinion among NFL talent evaluators as to where Branch and Okoye best project at the next level. How many scouting reports have you read which question whether Okoye is best suited to a simple 3 technique in his formative years in the league? They are numerous, and were even moreso before he added weight prior to the combine (which then brought a few of the minority counter-observations, that perhaps he wasn't as quick or explosive or agile at 300+, as he had been in the 290 range etc...).

Meanwhile, scouts from different team's ponder whether Branch has the most appropriate tools for a 3-4 NT, a 4-3 2 gap DT, a 3-4 DE etc... These evaluations are much more complex, varied and subjective than you are making them with the standard reply that 'they both play over the center in the 4-3' as if they are identical prototype 4-3 DTs of the same mold, differing only in skill sets. Not so, at all, in my opinion.

Yes, I like a DT who is explosive at the snap, shoots the gaps well, and penetrates to make plays in the backfield. Who wouldn't? Branch has proven to be an exceptional penetrator capable of splitting and beating double teams with a variety of methods. However, there are so many variables and situational factors to consider. At times, according to the design of the scheme and playcall, it's superior to be able to hold the point of attack (especially if it means stalemating a doubleteam, impeding the release of a leading OL etc...), rather than to quickly get penetration off the snap. Some of Kedric Golston's worst snaps were plays where he used a quick first step, and hand chop, to gain penetration, only to find that by doing so he had opened up a running lane and taken himself right out of the play.

Here are some compiled quotes from Alan Branch's NFL.com profile...

Can simply dominate the line of scrimmage and force teams to abandon their interior ground game because of his ability to occupy space and handle multiple blockers… Is almost always double teamed, but once he sets his anchor, he is impossible to move out … Knows his job is to occupy multiple blockers... Plays with very good leverage and when he keeps his pad level down, Branch can hold the point … Gets such a strong push off the snap, offensive linemen are quickly neutralized and the inside rush lanes get clogged… Seemed more acceptable to sitting back in run containment in 2006, but this player can really get to a quarterback when he cuts it loose …

I think Branch is better suited to play the double team commanding DT as a complement to Griffin in our 4-3 alignment. Everyone who thinks Branch projects to be a different model of DT from Okoye at the next level, isn't simply stuck in a state of not being able to differentiate varying DT techniques.

[SkinsFanAnt]

He's bigger, stronger, and more talented......tired of this crap about Okoye having more upside. So what if he's not a workout warrior. He brings it when it matters most.

In 2-3 years it will be Okoye who is bigger and stronger and more productive as a DT. Branch is good but Okoye has far more talent. You forget the kid is 19 and the upside is exactly why we should take him. Oh, and Okoye has proven he can bring it when it matters most which is why analysts have him above Branch on the draft boards.

[SkinsFanAnt]

I was once a Branch guy but I think Okoye will do much better in the long run. The main thing about Okoye is the intangibles. He's got that 'freak' potential of a Javon Kerse or Reggie White. Also, there are not many successful 2 gap DTs in the NFL who are above 6'3. Im not saying Branch is going to be unsuccessful or anything, but when you're picking 6th you want to go with the most sure thing possible. In my opinion its Okoye.

A few years ago we in a familiar spot and we practically had to chose between S. Taylor and Winslow II. Taylor was regarded as the sure thing and no one is complaining about that move. If we pick Okoye I don't think anyone will be complaining a year or two down the road.

[Stormy]

In 2-3 years it will be Okoye who is bigger and stronger and more productive as a DT. Branch is good but Okoye has far more talent. You forget the kid is 19 and the upside is exactly why we should take him. Oh, and Okoye has proven he can bring it when it matters most which is why analysts have him above Branch on the draft boards.

I like Okoye, though I think too much is made of his being 19, as opposed to a guy like Branch who just turned 22. If anything I'd think that the beating his body began taking at a formative 16 years of age, might be very detrimental in the long-term. Regardless, that's just speculation on my part, and I think Okoye will be fantastic.

One comment you made puzzled me though "Okoye has proven he can bring it when it matters most", as I'm not sure what that indicates? His team only played 2 ranked teams in what was arguably a very talent diluted conference, and both of those teams (WVU and Rutgers) ran hog wild all over Louisville's DL. Off the top of my head, I think WVU rolled up around 330 rushing yards versus L'ville, and Rutgers posted 6.0YPC and 130+ for their young RB Ray Rice. Not to indicate that's Okoye's fault or responsibility, but it's also a far cry from Michigan's record setting 43.8YPG rush defense, anchored by Branch, which played much more storied programs with future NFL talent on their OLs and in their backfields.

Otherwise, all I can think of is that "when it matters most" alludes to his combine performance or Senior Bowl... but that hardly seems the setting for it mattering the most.