Ghost of Posted February 21, 2007 Author Share Posted February 21, 2007 this just in: not everyone is a racist! not everything is a racist conspiracy! See, this thread should show you, I don't play a one-sided game (we've gone at it in the past.) Truth is truth and I really have started to enjoy Whitlock, though I wonder now if he's becoming a little one-note with these observations but sometimes you have to fight hard to turn the tide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I think the problem is not the NBA.But the events surrounding it.Many clubs lie and say "such and such" will appear at said club.Thus wannabe's flock with the hope of being seen in the presence with said star who never turns up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 My guess is you're talking to me and I have no fear in admitting I was one of those who insinuated race. But you are making a different argument (on some level) than what Whitlock or I would make. You point to players (and I can point to those players having an edge, especially in the 70s.) All those greats got into fights, punched teammates or opponents, bumped refs (didn't Magic bump a ref one time,) tackled Shaq (Barkley) etc. I do agree that there are entourages and players that seem to attract real trouble but I don't know that MJ didn't know a few people (though less thuggish and stupid) that would 'back him up' if need be.Whitlock is talking more about either the fan base or merely those who are DRAWN to the EVENT. Sure, the league has taken some hits but it's also filled with a bunch of choir boys (in some respects.) Think about it. Lebron and Wade and Duncan and Amare and all those guys are not thuggish at all. Nash? lol Boris Diaw? Tony Parker? Even the 'toughs' aren't really that thuggish. What I said in the past stands, except I will withdraw 'racial' tones to it and say instead that it's cultural dissonance (as Ancal once put it.) What Whitlock and others are saying is patently different from the argument you make, other than you could say players are being drawn (and sometimes they are) from the ranks of the 'thugs' and 'gangbangers.' BUT, so are many NFL players. I made my comments with no one person in particular on my mind. If you think I am talking about "cultural dissonance" you are mistaken. I would liken it more to a "values dissonance". My position is my family and I are consumers. We choose to not consume the product the NBA is putting out. Are we willing to delve into why I am no longer a consumer? Sounds like Whitlock delved in an accurate fashion. And he is not talking about "cultural" anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 See, this thread should show you, I don't play a one-sided game (we've gone at it in the past.) Truth is truth and I really have started to enjoy Whitlock, though I wonder now if he's becoming a little one-note with these observations but sometimes you have to fight hard to turn the tide. i've never accused you of playing a one sided game. we've just had differences of opinion as to when race is an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Read it and several others like it.Vegas was overwhlemed and did not handle the event well. so people throwing food and threatening waitresses happens because there aren't enough police? :whoknows: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooka Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Hey hey, what happens in Veags stays in Vegas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EersSkins05 Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 There is an edge and a mentality that exists in the NBA. It is one that I will not allow my children to take part in. This writing is the prime example of how bad NBA Basketball has gotten.Long gone are the days of Magic, Bird, Jordan, Drexler, Lambeer, Thomas. HARD, GRITTY, and FIERCE competitors ON the court. Now the league is left with a thug mentality that will keep the majority of America decidedly against the league and what it stands for. Kudos to the writer and his willingness to stand up against those that see no problem with the NBA and its image. He is right with every word he wrote. Now it is time to hear from all of those on this site that were in denial over this growing disaster so that they may be counted. Larry Bird got into fights with regularity. Hell, you could make a nice youtube clip of just his playoff fights. (Dr. J., Kareem, Rambis) Lambeer and Thomas were known as two of the dirtiest players to ever play the game. The worst intentional injury in the history of professional sports occurred in the 70's when Kermit Washinton almost killed Rudy Tomjanovich with a punch. Whatever "growing disaster" you're pointing to doesn't make any sense on or off the court. The NBA (and every other league) has always had off-court problems, used to have FAR more on-court problems than they do today, and isn't any more of a thug league than it ever has been. (Don't forget that most of the 70's and 80's involved a huge cloud of drug use.) For every Stephen Jackson, there's a Tim Duncan. The poster boy for the "NBA is thugs" movement, Allen Iverson, was only ever convicted (in 1997) of carrying a concealed weapon when he was in a car that was stopped for speeding. Otherwise, he's never been charged with a single crime as an NBA player. (He was arrested another time, but the charges were dropped.) And this is the guy everyone points to to say the NBA is a thug league? His arrest record isn't even as bad as Kerry Collins! In short, don't watch the NBA if you don't want to. Keep your kids away. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that it's any worse than it's ever been. And definately don't think that they're any less intense on the court than they've ever been. Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Dwayne Wade, Kevin Garnett, Gilbert Arenas, Allen Iverson, Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitski, etc. are most certainly NOT players that have ever been accused of giving less than their best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooka Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I made my comments with no one person in particular on my mind.If you think I am talking about "cultural dissonance" you are mistaken. I would liken it more to a "values dissonance". My position is my family and I are consumers. We choose to not consume the product the NBA is putting out. Are we willing to delve into why I am no longer a consumer? Sounds like Whitlock delved in an accurate fashion. And he is not talking about "cultural" anything. You should let your kids watch the NBA and not read the news or read journalism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 You should let your kids watch the NBA and not read the news or read journalism... ????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 ?????I think he means that if you actually watch the NBA games, you'll almost never see any violence or "thug" behavior, but if you watch the news, you'll see it every night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Dwayne Wade, Kevin Garnett, Gilbert Arenas, Allen Iverson, Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitski, etc. are most certainly NOT players that have ever been accused of giving less than their best. On this point you are most certainly correct. (Arenas is still in the prove it stage. But as a Washington fan I see why you put his name with the others.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I think he means that if you actually watch the NBA games, you'll almost never see any violence or "thug" behavior, but if you watch the news, you'll see it every night. So in other words ignor Jason Whitlock........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 So in other words ignor Jason Whitlock........Or just don't take the kids to Vegas ... not a single NBA player was mentioned doing anything wrong in Whitlock's column - the only professional athlete he accused of anything was Pacman Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Or just don't take the kids to Vegas ... not a single NBA player was mentioned doing anything wrong in Whitlock's column - the only professional athlete he accused of anything was Pacman Jones. Artest.... And I have never been nor am I planning a run to Vegas. Odds are better in the stock market anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EersSkins05 Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 On this point you are most certainly correct. (Arenas is still in the prove it stage. But as a Washington fan I see why you put his name with the others.) Well, he never seems to give less than a 100% effort, and puts on a show for the fans in the process, so that's why I included him. You'll notice that I didn't include Lebron- that cat just plays on cruise control waaaaaaay too much these days... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Fights in the NBA are very rare. 20/30 years ago fights were common, can't say that about today's game. The notion that the league is full of thugs is absurd and ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 it's worth repeating that this article isn't really about the players in the nba, but rather the crowd it attracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I'm serious. Stern has spent the past three years trying to move his league and players past the thug image Ron Artest's fan brawl stamped on the NBA. After this weekend, I'm convinced he's losing the battle. All-Star Weekend Vegas screamed that the NBA is aligned too closely with thugs. Stern is going to have to take drastic measures to break that perception/reality. All-Star Weekend can no longer remain the Woodstock for parolees, wannabe rap artists and baby's mamas on tax-refund vacations. . Quoted for reference to the ignorant comment.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Artest....Of course that's a black mark on the league, but as people have pointed out, that's one rare incident, and if anything, there was more fighting in the NBA in the 70's and 80's.it's worth repeating that this article isn't really about the players in the nba, but rather the crowd it attracts. I guess that's the distinction that should be made. Maybe it's fair to stop watching the NBA because you don't like the crowd it attracts (heck, I'm pretty sure that's why I can't really get into NASCAR), but I think the reason everyone's jumping on portisizzle is that he tries to blame it on the players and the play on the court, which isn't really fair. The basketball is as entertaining as it ever was. The players are as good as they ever were. There are some attitudes here and there, but the mentality of the players isn't qualitatively different from two decades ago (or from football or baseball). If the problem is the crowd it attracts, then people should just say so rather than blaming it on the entire NBA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I guess that's the distinction that should be made. Maybe it's fair to stop watching the NBA because you don't like the crowd it attracts (heck, I'm pretty sure that's why I can't really get into NASCAR), but I think the reason everyone's jumping on portisizzle is that he tries to blame it on the players and the play on the court, which isn't really fair. The basketball is as entertaining as it ever was. The players are as good as they ever were. There are some attitudes here and there, but the mentality of the players isn't qualitatively different from two decades ago (or from football or baseball). If the problem is the crowd it attracts, then people should just say so rather than blaming it on the entire NBA. i don't watch much of the nba, and it has nothing to do with the crowd or the image. i honestly just don't have the time. what i do watch, i will agree with you, the basketball is pretty good right now. much better now than it was 7-8 years ago. i do think that, while the nba players aren't thugs, the league is aligned with that image. how that came to be, i'm not really sure. but it's there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonez3 Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I listened to ESPN radio on Monday, without really caring about the weekend activities (game and all), and ESPN was emphatic about such a success the weekend was with the NBA being big winners along with Vegas. You would think it would actual make the NBA exciting again. But,after hearing the Monday broadcast, this is a bit of a suprise in liue of that. I heard about the anticipated criminality, but nothing seemed to surface. Crazy, maybe ESPN is covering up. I can't stand Colin Cowherd, he drives me nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stwasm Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 It's interesting he makes mention of there being a heavy police presence. Bill Simmons article about his all star weekend experience said that he never saw a cop the whole time he was there. I think it's funny that both Simmons and Whitlock referred to All-Star Weekend as the hip-hop Woodstock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hail2skins Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 This is another interesting (funny) account of some of the atmosphere in Vegas this weekend through a local's eyes. See the February 18th entry........... http://www.vegasrex.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aszumilo Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 I think that perhaps they should choose their venue a little better. Vegas isn't exactly the safest place in the world to begin with. If you stray off of the main strip, you'll see it's not all glitz and glamour. That is an unfair assesment of Vegas. New Year's Eve on the Strip brings a heel of a lot more people than this did. The difference is all the punks and thugs that showed up. Do not assume that "if you stray off the Strip" that it is any worse than any other major city. Yes it is not the safest or smartest thing to do, but, do not make it seem that outside of the Strip it is unsafe. I happen to live "outside" of the Strip in an ordinary average neighborhood and have so for 20 something years. The neighborhoods I live in and have lived in are safer than the neighborhoods I grew up in, in New York City. So, please know what you are talking about before opening the hole under your nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aszumilo Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 "The biggest thing about Vegas is that there's no police. ... I lived out there for two months this summer and I probably saw one cop car, so it's a free-for-all. ... BULL**** Where did he live? In an high income area and not venture off his street? He probably never left the house. This is pure bull and nothing more. He is probably writing crap like this to sway Vegas from getting a team or some other agenda. Vegas has a good police department and while I sometimes have issues with them (damn tickets), they are usually all over the place. I know several officers and I know they would say we do need more police patrolling the streets, they are hardly invisible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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