Is Gibbs II a failure?

[SoCalSkins]

The fact that we are making comparisons to Parcells shows how bad this second time has been. There is no way anyone on this board would have had Parcells anywhere near the same level as Gibbs 3 years ago. Now people want him to try and be as good as Bill.

[Henry]

Good point, Henry. But Parcells was only away from coaching for two years, and while gone he was still commentating so he was still 'around the sport.' Coach Gibbs was away for over ten years and busy with Nascar.

So he should have done much better three years in than Gibbs, shouldn't he?

My point is not that Gibbs is destined to get to the superbowl next year or anything, it's just that things change so fast in this league you just don't know what's going to happen from one year to the next.

So until Gibbs actually retires again, we can't say if he's been a success or not.

Up until this point though ... one playoff win in three years isn't great.

[dcoles11]

I am reading a lot of posts that say Gibbs II is a failure. Hopefully these posts are fueled by anger from the loss yesterday... I'm curious to see what people think at this point. 4-8 so far this year. 16-16 from the first two years (with a playoff birth and win). Is Gibbs a failure this time around?

I think it's ENTIRELY unfair to call him a failure this early on, particularly after a great season last year. Surely he deserves a longer leash than some of us fans are giving him, right?

Personally, I think he has been the best Redskins coach since he left the first time.

I don't think its too early at all, I think year 3 is suppose to be the year that it all comes together, not the year that it all falls apart.

You said, "after a great season last year" This is where I differ from alot of the fans on here. I don't think last year was great.

I think we were 5-6, because Gibbs coached games exactly like he coached yesterday, we'd be up 7, 10, 14 points and then we'd play not to lose the rest of the game until the other team came back and the last 5 minutes of the game would be nerve wrecking and we'd lose. The Charger game and the Raider game come to mind.

If you really look at that 5 game winning streak to put us at 10-6 you'd realize that we got very fortunate.

2 of the 5 wins were vs teams that were down to their 3rd string QB and have absolutely nothing to play for.

The win vs the Cardinals took a kickoff return to get in done.

The stars alligned and we won 5 in row to finish 10-6 and make the playoffs but I don't think Joe Gibbs or any of the coaching staff should be held at high praise for this.

Gibbs was the one that led the team to the 5-6 start. Hell we were 3-0 and then went 2-6, thats not good coaching, thats letting a good start fall by the waste side.

And in the playoffs we set offensive records, but not in a good way, records such as least yards gained by a team that won a playoff game.

As bad as Mark Brunell looked in the playoffs i'm still baffled that anyone believed he would lead this team to where we wanted to go this year.

You also said you thought Gibbs was the best coach we've had since he left.

I'd agree but that isn't saying much and because the Redskins have been so bad for so long everyone's expectations have fallen way down.

He hasn't done a very good job. You seem to want to give him credit for doing better than what we have become use to around here.

I think the 4-8 start this season only goes to show that last year was a fluke, we were destined to finish about 7-9 last year and the miracle happened and fooled everyone including myself into thinking that we were an actually 10-6 playoff capable team.

The regression this year is what I judge him on. Maybe its not a regression like I pointed out, maybe this is about the same level of team and coaching, just not getting the flukish breaks this year to propel us to a long winning streak.

The team hasn't gotten better or has just stayed the same and there were terrible decisions made in free agency and with players already on the roster.

We continue to lose games that we have leads in, that has been really the only constant of Gibbs 2.0.

Gibbs 2.0 is a failure

[SnyderMustGo]

Gibbs was brought here for one of two reasons: either to win now or to build a team to win for the future.

Option A: win now. If that is his task, he has failed. A playoff win is not the goal. Crappy franchises measure success in terms of playoff wins. You think the Cowboys measure success in playoff wins? No. They measure success in Super Bowl victories. Joe hasn't brought us one. So he has failed at winning now.

Option B: build for the future. If that was his task, he failed. He leveraged our future to bring in hired guns to try to win now and it failed. But in doing so, we traded away our future and gave away precious draft picks which are the building blocks for a championship team. We have tons of money tied up in average players. If Gibbs leaves after this year I would say that this franchise has less potential than it did when Gibbs came.

I don't know how much of it is his fault. But he did fail.

[Tastes Like Chicken]

So he should have done much better three years in than Gibbs, shouldn't he?

My point is not that Gibbs is destined to get to the superbowl next year or anything, it's just that things change so fast in this league you just don't know what's going to happen from one year to the next.

So until Gibbs actually retires again, we can't say if he's been a success or not.

Up until this point though ... one playoff win in three years isn't great.

Good point . I agree that you can't judge a book until you read the entire thing.

I think that Gibbs is in the Hall of Fame as a football coach, not a GM (which I propose we needed more than Saunders). When Coach Gibbs came back we all assumed that we'd win another Super Bowl, but in reality that might not happen. I have to prepare myself for that possibility, as much as I don't want to believe it. There are 30 teams every year that don't make it, and we all assumed this year that we'd be fighting for home field advantage, not a top 8 draft pick. So one question becomes; which year was the aberration, '06 or '05? Bad teams don't just go off on 6 game winning streaks at the end of a season, but likewise, how do good teams go from 10-6 to 4-8 in one year?:2cents:

[44Dieselfan]

Gibbs II is not a complete failure yet, but if we are at this point next year, I will be saying it is a failure. I do agree with the people saying we need a real GM, but I don't think that will come while Gibbs is still here. I think if Gibbs retires after next year or after his fifth year, and they did not win a super bowl or make the playoffs consistently, then, and only then does Danny hire a GM.

Think about it, Danny has tried everything to win, even bringing back the one guy who brought this franchise to glory in the 80's and early 90's. And if Gibbs failed, then the only "new" thing Danny can do is hire a GM and let the GM run the ship, including hiring a coach. However, finding the right GM will be the challenge. And knowing how Synder works, he would probably go after a big name like Bethard, Casserly, or Ron Wolf, and that is why the Redskins continue to have problems. Instead of going after Bethard, Casserly, or Wolf, they need to go after the next Bethard, Casserly, or Wolf! Find a young guy who is hungry to succeed, not someone who has already succeeded. This goes the same for the coach. Don't bring in an old legend, find the NEXT legend (maybe someone like Grimm)? Just think about it, if Synder had hired Marvin Lewis as our head coach instead of Defensive Cordinator when he hired Spurrier, we would have been better off. Sorry for the long post, but I think this is what is wrong with the Redskins. HAIL!

[dockeryfan]

Anyone who thinks GIBBS II is a failure does not remember the spurrier disaster or the Turner years.

Yes this team is losing. Yes they actually are playing horrendous football right now. But the team is on a track to improve. There will be some consistency in coaching. Maybe the offensive line needs some better coaching, to fit with Saunder's style, but consistency will be the key to the team's success.

The thing that will improve the Redskins the most will be to have better player evaluation in the scouting dept, and less input from the coaches in terms of player acquisition.

Brunell and his pricetag. Portis for Bailey in which they gave up a 2nd rounder. Trading up for Campbell and telegraphing the move. Trading up for Mcintosh. Andre Carter. Adam Archuletta. These are moves that a front office needs to be making, not a head coach or an asst head coach.

This team will continue to be hamstrung as long as Vinny and Gibbs are making the personnel decisions. (I like to think Snyder has stepped back since the Jeff George and Bruce Smith days.) Gibbs is a coach. Not a GM. And Vinny? Well, he's not that great at making GM type moves. That is pretty clear.

[PeterMP]

Parcells, his first time back from retirement, went 5-11 his first season.

His second season back, he started out 3-6, but then won 7 straight to finish out 10-6, made the playoffs and lost but in the first round. This gave the perennial loser Patriots hope for the future.

Well, his third season was a step back. And he went 6-10.

His fourth season he went 11-5 and got to the superbowl, and the Patriots haven't looked back. Ever since Parcells has been considered a HOF lock.

Is Gibbs II a failure? Maybe. But other great coaches have bounced back from setbacks. Gibbs might as well.

I'm not saying your wrong, especially since you've hedged your bets with the Maybe, but it is a bad comparision. Parcells built something, and it took time to let it build. Just as examples:

Bledsoe was young when Parcells got there (1993)

McGinist was a roookie in 1994.

Curtis Martin was a rookie in 1995.

Bruschi was a rookie in 1996.

Ty Law was a rookie in 1995

Lawer Milloy was a rookie in 1996

That's a collection of very good players and many are still playing today. This on the other hand this is pretty much a vetern team, and there is not much help coming from this draft because we've already traded several of our picks. For this team to get a lot better quickly, some of the veterns on this team are going to have to start to play better. I can not see it.

If Gibbs had gutted this team his first year here and gone w/ a bunch of young guys or invested in heavily in the draft the last couple of years it would be a different story.

[Leonard Washington]

He didn't seem like a failure last season when the team was only a couple players away and he was involved more in the offense.

offense wasn't that great last year either.

[Burgold]

Mixed.

If the goal is improvement each year. It is a failure so far. The Defense has badly regressed and the offense under Brunell (Campbell being a rook is not fair to judge) regressed, esp. in big play and run production. Special teams has gotten better. We no longer live in dread of the big kickoff or punt return.

If the goal is the Superbowl. It is a failure.

If the goal is becoming a consistent winner. Well, last year we were very competitive and even at the end of his first year we were competitive. For large stretches this year, the defense does not seem to be competing. Too many tackles are missed. Too many coverages are blown. Too many big plays. The offense is uneven. I think it looks slightly better with Jason, because it looks somewhat more dangerous.

Overall, I would say that Gibbs is failing right now. Gibbs has not achieved what he wants, what we want, or what I want. The buck stops with him. I don't think we can quite call it a failure, because we see signs of the O having life and potential. The D seems to be on life support. The bigger question to me is why Williams' D has completely disintegrated in three years, because it is an issue we may have to address and who'd have thought that.

[Guest sith lord]

I don't think its too early at all, I think year 3 is suppose to be the year that it all comes together, not the year that it all falls apart.

You said, "after a great season last year" This is where I differ from alot of the fans on here. I don't think last year was great.

I think we were 5-6, because Gibbs coached games exactly like he coached yesterday, we'd be up 7, 10, 14 points and then we'd play not to lose the rest of the game until the other team came back and the last 5 minutes of the game would be nerve wrecking and we'd lose. The Charger game and the Raider game come to mind.

If you really look at that 5 game winning streak to put us at 10-6 you'd realize that we got very fortunate.

2 of the 5 wins were vs teams that were down to their 3rd string QB and have absolutely nothing to play for.

The win vs the Cardinals took a kickoff return to get in done.

The stars alligned and we won 5 in row to finish 10-6 and make the playoffs but I don't think Joe Gibbs or any of the coaching staff should be held at high praise for this.

Gibbs was the one that led the team to the 5-6 start. Hell we were 3-0 and then went 2-6, thats not good coaching, thats letting a good start fall by the waste side.

And in the playoffs we set offensive records, but not in a good way, records such as least yards gained by a team that won a playoff game.

As bad as Mark Brunell looked in the playoffs i'm still baffled that anyone believed he would lead this team to where we wanted to go this year.

You also said you thought Gibbs was the best coach we've had since he left.

I'd say no. Marty was. Marty wasn't given time to build a team, he had 1 year and that was it. His record in his 1st and only season was better than Gibbs record in his return season. 8-8 for Marty 6-10 for Gibbs, yet Gibbs was given a pass and Marty was fired.

I'd love to know somehow how this organization would have turned out if Marty would have stayed for 5 years. Chargers sure are sitting pretty at 10-2 in a much tougher AFC.

Gibbs hasn't done a very good job. You seem to want to give him credit for doing better than what we have become use to around here.

I think the 4-8 start this season only goes to show that last year was a fluke, we were destined to finish about 7-9 last year and the miracle happened and fooled everyone including myself into thinking that we were an actually 10-6 playoff capable team.

The regression this year is what I judge him on. Maybe its not a regression like I pointed out, maybe this is about the same level of team and coaching, just not getting the flukish breaks this year to propel us to a long winning streak.

The team hasn't gotten better or has just stayed the same and there were terrible decisions made in free agency and with players already on the roster.

We continue to lose games that we have leads in, that has been really only constand of Gibbs 2.0.

Gibbs 2.0 is a failure

Atleast you tell it like it is. I agree on everything you said. Gibbs was brought in here to be the savior and in his third year we're 4-8. It's beyond me how anyone can say that Gibbs II is not a failure.

[Fan035]

Gibbs I is a hero.

Gibbs II is struggling. There's still time remaining on his contract for him to turn things around. This situation has to be harder on him than any of us.

[SnyderMustGo]

Anyone who thinks GIBBS II is a failure does not remember the spurrier disaster or the Turner years.

That he has not been as horrible as previous travesty does not mean that he is a success.

You don't think he is a failure? That means you think he is a success. Because those are the only two options.

So answer me the question when it is framed this way:

by what metric has GibbsII had any success?

[dcoles11]

Anyone who thinks GIBBS II is a failure does not remember the spurrier disaster or the Turner years.

Yes this team is losing. Yes they actually are playing horrendous football right now. But the team is on a track to improve. There will be some consistency in coaching. Maybe the offensive line needs some better coaching, to fit with Saunder's style, but consistency will be the key to the team's success.

The thing that will improve the Redskins the most will be to have better player evaluation in the scouting dept, and less input from the coaches in terms of player acquisition.

Brunell and his pricetag. Portis for Bailey in which they gave up a 2nd rounder. Trading up for Campbell and telegraphing the move. Trading up for Mcintosh. Andre Carter. Adam Archuletta. These are moves that a front office needs to be making, not a head coach or an asst head coach.

This team will continue to be hamstrung as long as Vinny and Gibbs are making the personnel decisions. (I like to think Snyder has stepped back since the Jeff George and Bruce Smith days.) Gibbs is a coach. Not a GM. And Vinny? Well, he's not that great at making GM type moves. That is pretty clear.

So as long as you do better than Norv and Spurrier you aren't a failure??

That is exactly what i'm talking about, complete ass backwards Redskin fan/Gibbs apologist thinking.

Being better than terrible dosen't mean you aren't a failure.

4-8 in the 3rd season is regression and its a failure, plain and simple.

[NOVA2Tampa]

New system

New QB

I'm willing to give them another season to get it together. We all thought that this was "the season" the Redskins would make that SB run, and rightfully so...everything looked so promising. I agree with the guy who posted about there being a "bad vibe" about this season after Portis got hurt making a STUPID play in the first preseason game. The wheels pretty much came off after that.

Face it, folks...the Redskins are a coin flip and a blocked FG away from being 2-10 right now. They do NOT have the dominant D they had down the stretch last year. The Redskins simply give up far too many points right now to be consistent winners. They can't blow leads like they had against Jacksonville and Atlanta and expect to make the playoffs, it's that simple.

Well...at least the Gators are going to Arizona...

[RedskinzOwnU]

How is it not a failure? We have an old, busted, over-paid undertalented roster, with very few young up and comers and ZERO draft picks with which to replenish our talent pool. We have too many coaches, none of which are doing a good job, and they are stepping on each other's toes in the process. We're probably one of the worst run organizations when it comes to game planning, in-game coaching execution, in-game player execution, and personnel management. Gibbs is in charge of all of these areas. Maybe he relinquished too much control, and he's not making all the decisions, but it's still his fault for giving that decisionmaking power to people that clearly have no idea what they're doing.

[HailSkinz1]

It's more accurate to say that Snyder is a failure. The way he has constructed the FO is a joke. Gibbs is in the middle of a mess and he's making it work as best he can.

I'm glad we have an owner who spends money, but I wish he'd spend it wisely and get someone in the FO who knows what he's doing.

Hail,

H

[Guest sith lord]

New system

New QB

I'm willing to give them another season to get it together. We all thought that this was "the season" the Redskins would make that SB run, and rightfully so...everything looked so promising. I agree with the guy who posted about there being a "bad vibe" about this season after Portis got hurt making a STUPID play in the first preseason game. The wheels pretty much came off after that.

Face it, folks...the Redskins are a coin flip and a blocked FG away from being 2-10 right now. They do NOT have the dominant D they had down the stretch last year. The Redskins simply give up far too many points right now to be consistent winners. They can't blow leads like they had against Jacksonville and Atlanta and expect to make the playoffs, it's that simple.

Well...at least the Gators are going to Arizona...

And the Gators are gonna get killed. The Wolverines should be going to Arizona.

[NOVA2Tampa]

And the Gators are gonna get killed.

Funny...USC thought the very same thing about UCLA...and WV thought the very same thing about USF...and Louisville thought the very same thing about Rutgers. I know it's cliché, but that's why they play the games!

I agree it's going to be tough to beat Ohio State...they will probably win, but let's play the game and see what happens.

GO GATORS!!!

[NOVA2Tampa]

It's more accurate to say that Snyder is a failure. The way he has constructed the FO is a joke. Gibbs is in the middle of a mess and he's making it work as best he can.

I'm glad we have an owner who spends money, but I wish he'd spend it wisely and get someone in the FO who knows what he's doing.

Hail,

H

DING DING DING!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

[Henry]

I'm not saying your wrong, especially since you've hedged your bets with the Maybe, but it is a bad comparision. Parcells built something, and it took time to let it build. Just as examples:

Bledsoe was young when Parcells got there (1993)

McGinist was a roookie in 1994.

Curtis Martin was a rookie in 1995.

Bruschi was a rookie in 1996.

Ty Law was a rookie in 1995

Lawer Milloy was a rookie in 1996

I knew someone was going to go here, which is why I 'hedged my bets' and all. Yes, the details are different. But 1995 was Year Three of that era. The arguement could have been made that those players (the ones on the team by then) were not living up to expectations. That the team was floundering and going backwards, and that the seven game win streak the year before was a fluke.

Yes, that's a collection of very good players. We know that NOW. Nobody knew that then. Especially after the team went 6-10.

That's a collection of very good players and many are still playing today. This on the other hand this is pretty much a vetern team, and there is not much help coming from this draft because we've already traded several of our picks. For this team to get a lot better quickly, some of the veterns on this team are going to have to start to play better. I can not see it.

Of course you can't see it, because the team stinks this year. It's often hard to see where improvement is going to come from. That was my point.

But the team didn't stink last year, so there's hope that THAT is the team Gibbs built, and not this one. We'll find out soon enough, and then we'll know if Gibbs failed this time around or not.

[PeterMP]

I knew someone was going to go here, which is why I 'hedged my bets' and all. Yes, the details are different. But 1995 was Year Three of that era. The arguement could have been made that those players (the ones on the team by then) were not living up to expectations. That the team was floundering and going backwards, and that the seven game win streak the year before was a fluke.

Like I said, they had young players to improve. That is expected. For the most part, we are asking for veterns to improve their play. That is less likely.

[Flowtrain]

It's obvious that Gibbs has botched the job from a personnel standpoint, but it's also silly to suggest that this somehow excuses him from redeeming himself by extracting the most out of the talent that's been assembled. Because despite the fact that the future has been mortgaged, there is still some fire power to work with compared to the rest of the leage. That calls for good coaching.

From a pure coaching standpoint, Gibbs has to be judged relative to his peers. And there are some great coaches around the league. This not only includes coaches who are sustaining past success, but also coaches that have turned around terrible teams lacking in talenting.

Importantly, that turn around has come in a matter of MONTHS. And it's come from rookie head coaches who are still figuring out how to schedule meetings and still figuring out which of the players that they inherited deserve to be cut. It's laughable to suggest that Gibbs needs MORE than 3 seasons when rookies are doing it in a fraction of that time. It's simply an excuse for doing a bad job.

[dockeryfan]

So as long as you do better than Norv and Spurrier you aren't a failure??

That is exactly what i'm talking about, complete ass backwards Redskin fan/Gibbs apologist thinking.

Being better than terrible dosen't mean you aren't a failure.

4-8 in the 3rd season is regression and its a failure, plain and simple.

Cripes, give the team a chance to grow into itself.

New O coordinator.

New QB. Aging Oline.

Defense has some personnel problems, but young guys loke Golston coming on.

To completely change everything now is I thhink the LAST thing this team needs.

But hey, I'm just an apologist, yada yada

:doh:

[Riggins Seventy Chip]

It's more accurate to say that Snyder is a failure. The way he has constructed the FO is a joke. Gibbs is in the middle of a mess and he's making it work as best he can.

You are right. However, I think Gibbs has bought into the existing system. Right now, I am hoping that he is getting disgusted with it, and finally seeing that he has to make real changes there. I think he may in fact do that. Right now, yes it is a failure. If he gets real personnel people in, spends money wisely, and returns to what made him successful in the first place, I think he can turn it around.