Champ Bailey

[TK]

The bottom line why we did not sign Champ is because of Snyder.

After just posting this I'm not surprised to find you rambling about the same thing in this thread.

Bottom line is this, you're clueless. That meeting Die Hard mentioned, for what it's worth, DH was sitting to my right. And Henry was across from us.

[adamyesme1111]

Ok, Champ is good but the thing is, if we kept Champ you never know what would've happened, we might have never picked up Springs or drafted Rogers. Also he wasnt happy hear and best cornerback or not he doesn't deserve as much money as he is getting.

[kovachs]

The skins were only going to sign either Lavar or Bailey to a contract. They weren't going to spend the money to sign both of them. They decided to sign Lavar and low ball Bailey. Bailey wanted the money like Portis wanted the money in Denver so he left.

[TK]

The skins were only going to sign either Lavar or Bailey to a contract. They weren't going to spend the money to sign both of them. They decided to sign Lavar and low ball Bailey. Bailey wanted the money like Portis wanted the money in Denver so he left.

Again Champ wasn't lowballed. And he didn't leave for the money. He left because he wanted out of D.C.

[whlinder]

I'm still amazed that people think had we kept Champ we would have also gotten Springs.

Springs REPLACED Champ.

Up until this year, I was happy with how it played out. Springs had played much better per dollar than Champ, and Portis was awesome. (Part of that was Champ fighting injuries, but he still got school way more than the "best corner in the league" should). This year Champ seems to be playing better than he has since his first few years in the league, when he was at the top of his game. And of course both Portis and Springs got hurt.

[JoeGibbsThickandthin]

I'm still amazed that people think had we kept Champ we would have also gotten Springs.

Springs REPLACED Champ.

Up until this year, I was happy with how it played out. Springs had played much better per dollar than Champ, and Portis was awesome. (Part of that was Champ fighting injuries, but he still got school way more than the "best corner in the league" should). This year Champ seems to be playing better than he has since his first few years in the league, when he was at the top of his game. And of course both Portis and Springs got hurt.

I still want to see Portis with a better QB. In a verticle passing game where he can run in space.

I still do not see him as a pounder back. He is not a Stephen Davis back to me.

We struggle late in games when we are trying to run the clock out.

[Die Hard]

All the same. He posted nothing in this thread that gives any so called inside information im sure they did have to deal with him to buy the site just cause they want the site doesnt mean your going to get any special info. I do like the trade except the pick added to it Portis carried this team to the playoffs last year and is a team type guy more so than Champ.

Special info wasn't a condition of sale. It was given in the course of casual chat about the Redskins over dinner. As well as some other inside information that simply isn't available to the masses for obvious reasons.

You don't need to know the details about WHY he wasn't going to resign... that isn't exclusive to knowing that he wasn't going to resign in Washington for any reason.

That much is true.

I'm not sure why that knowledge is SO FAR OUT THERE... that it's impossible to believe it to be true. I don't know a LOT about the goings on of the Washington Redskins... but I knew a few things. And one of them happens to be on this topic.

That's why you don't see me in many threads proclaiming to know everything.

[FS36]

All in all, this thread is pointless b/c it's like trying to argue what's more important in a fruit salad? Apples or oranges?

Btw, cute kid Die Hard.

[JoeGibbsThickandthin]

Portis is a top 6 back, so we can not be mad.

I just wish he would get those big runs again.

[worstSeat]

Champ was unhappy here. I wouldn't want cancers that would ruin our chemistry.

I'm 150% happy with Clinton Portis here in D.C.

1.) Champ was unhappy b/c they didn't show him the money, and it was money he deserved.

2.) Remind me again who the Skins did open the vault to keep? Oh yeah, LaVar.

Unfortunately there's no way to compare a "trade back" situation in any sort of reasonable way. With Bailey, no Rogers. Without LaVar, well, which LB would they have drafted? Would there have been a Springs? Would Smoot have stuck around? etc etc etc. This is one of those butterfly wingbeats in Europe or Africa causing a hurricane here kind of deals; there's no way to predict what either team would look like now sans trade.

Was it a good trade at the time? I guess so. CP has the franchise *record* for yards, folk. That's not a fluke; Pres Clinton can play. And at the time of the trade, Bailey wasn't getting his proverbial respect. Would I rather have Bailey now and another RB? Really tough to say, though I can't help but think so when I watch Bailey's highlights and hear the talk about him on the tube. Then I watch another Portis TD or pancake block...

[Ty Garcia]

who cares isn't Champ the DB they ran down when he intercepted the ball because he was showboating and did'nt they lose that game!!

[TK]

1.) Champ was unhappy b/c they didn't show him the money, and it was money he deserved.

Didn't read the whole thread, did you?

[kovachs]

Again Champ wasn't lowballed. And he didn't leave for the money. He left because he wanted out of D.C.

That's definately part of it, but he was offered a better contract by Denver. So it wasn't as if money played no part in it.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/story/WAS/7098977

He got a 7 year, $63 million dollar contract with a $17 million signing bonus in Denver.

Washington offered him a 9 year $55 million deal with $14.7 million bonus. The washington contract was clearly inferior to the Denver one and he was less likely to get the total value of the contract.

Lavar's deal was 8 years for $68 million.

[Die Hard]

That's definately part of it, but he was offered a better contract by Denver. So it wasn't as if money played no part in it.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/story/WAS/7098977

He got a 7 year, $63 million dollar contract with a $17 million signing bonus in Denver.

Washington offered him a 9 year $55 million deal with $14.7 million bonus. The washington contract was clearly inferior to the Denver one and he was less likely to get the total value of the contract.

Lavar's deal was 8 years for $68 million.

First of all, I'd take those numbers with a grain of salt. We are all very well aware of the fact that the Redskins have signed some players to some very hefty contracts over the years (Jansen, Thomas, Samuels, Moss, Portis, etc).

And one thing is consistent with all those contracts... we NEVER heard the numbers before the signing was made public. Never. Only after the contract was signed were the numbers divulged.... and often times, the numbers severely inflated to our shock.

So I think it's peculiar that those numbers got leaked.

Second of all, Champ was franchised. The Redskins didn't have to trade if they didn't want to. End of story. No matter how gaudy or low those numbers might appear to people.

Lastly, at the time those numbers were reported... they were basically the teams first offer. Seriously, when was the last time the Redskins signed a player to a lower-than-market-value contract? Those were most likely the team's initial offer... and if Bailey's reps had the green light to negotiate with the team... I'm sure he would have squeezed a helluva lot more out of the team by the time the contract was signed, sealed and delivered.

[BleedBNG]

Snyder did not draft him so he did not care for him. Same with Smoot and Peirce.

1.) Champ was unhappy b/c they didn't show him the money, and it was money he deserved.

Now, though, another element appears to have crept into Bailey's thinking: After five seasons of turmoil and progressively less success in Washington, he simply wants out.

Bailey has become increasingly vocal about key issues this season and less afraid to express controversial points of view. His biggest frustration has been the Redskins' five defensive coordinators during his tenure, with the distinct possibility that there could be a sixth in six years in 2004.

The prospect of further change and dicey odds of improvement seem to have Bailey thinking about other NFL clubs as the offseason approaches. He knows that it's only going to become more difficult for the Redskins to turn things around with each season they get worse.

http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20031216-120257-6002r.htm

And he definetly played like it in '03.

I really hate it when a former Redskin with such an optimistic outlook for the TEAM had to go.

[Jofizz]

Didn't read the whole thread, did you?

Of course he didn't. If he did, he would have had nothing to say.

[Cool Hand Loki]

Hindsight is 20/20, and I love Clinton Portis, but looking back, ESPN says he's by far the best corner in the league, and after last weeks game I would probably agree.

Not trying to make people mad, just trying to make conversation. And yes I know this has been talked to death, but I did a search and nothing recent came back.

Here's some of the running backs who were selected after Campbell's pick (25th of first round.) Some of them are pretty productive where they are, some aren't:

Round 2, pick 44: J.J. Arrington (Arizona)

Round 2, pick 54: Eric Shelton (Carolina)

Round 3, pick 65: Frank Gore (San Francisco)*

Round 3, pick 73: Vernand Morency (Houston)

Round 3, pick 77: Ryan Moats (Philadelphia)

Round 3, pick 101: Maurice Clarett (Denver)

Round 4, pick 109: Marion Barber III (Dallas)*

Round 4, pick 110: Brandon Jacobs (New York Giants)

Undrafted: Mike Bell (Denver)*

In 2004, there weren't many backs who were available after we picked Sean Taylor and Chris Cooley (even I won't go as far as to say we shouldn't have picked them up.) Michael Turner (San Diego) has had a few good games.

Clinton has been the face of the franchise (especially since LaVar left) and I love him to death, but do you guys think he was worth Champ and that round 2 pick? Worth mentioning are our current struggles at corner. We'd be the deepest secondary in the league with Bailey, Springs, and Carlos Rogers.

Before you guys shoot me down, think of this: Would Denver trade back Bailey and a second round pick for Portis? Probably not, even though he is better than any back they've had since.

Before you guys shoot me down, think of this: Denver can sit on my fist and spin. Bailey is a great corner, but he's still overrated. I don't have the patience to review his poor performances since 2004, but there have been several genuine stinkers. You need to stop buying the hype about Denver's D and watch some games. He makes some spectacular plays, but he also craps the bed with frequency.

Meanwhile, Portis is the face and heart of this franchise, and set a franchise record for rushing yards last year. Are you serious, or are you just trying to stir up some nonsense? As you said, hindsight is 20/20, so what exactly is the point of your post? If the question is Champ for Portis, I'll take Portis eevry goddam day of the week. If you want to spin it financially, I think DS couldn't care less, so who gives a crap? What was the point again?

[sonsofwashington]

Champ over Portis? dude, 5 lashes with a wet noodle!!!!!!!!

[SWFLSkins]

the question is, REGARDLESS of the situation, how did the value of the trade work out?

And the answer is the Redskins were abolutley, positively robbed. It was a terrible trade for the Redskins.

Portis is a good (not elite) RB. He's not in my top 5 at his own position. Champ Bailey is in the top 5 - of ANY position.

Geez your list, and my list. Hmm, they matter to whom?

Champ is good no doubt, but top 5 in the league, hmm seems biased to me. I mean, Champ takes up one side of the field, while LT, Tiki, Portis and other RBs-and QB's like Brady, Peyton, and a host of wideouts(Moss) score points and have change games. Bailey in this era of touch defense is not worth more than a quality offensive player, IMO and on my list. BTW, I played corner, but again corner is not what it used to be. In fact I would take Taylor over Bailey right now because of how the game is being played. Throwing age out as well.

[The Sisko]

I can’t believe you guys. None of you have adequately addressed the real issue first raised by Oxtalls and Playaction – namely that the players were/are both difference makers but we got hosed on the deal.

DH and Henry are 100% correct that Champ was done with us and was ready to go. I really don’t think there was any way we could have kept him and had him be happy with it. He may even have retired rather than play for us, though with his ego and desire for the big payday that probably wasn’t likely. But the bottom line is that he was fed up.

Regardless, we still held the franchise tag on him which would have trumped both him and Denver in our negotiations witht them. It’s important to remember that Denver was looking at having just been toasted by the Dolts in the playoffs after having drafted several bust corners. Shanahan felt he only needed that one extra piece to the puzzle to get to the SB and wanted a sure thing at the position. We not only let him off the hook on the deal, we bent over for him as well. There was a LOT of interest in Champ and Denver wasn’t the only serious suitor. As an example, if memory serves me correctly, the Jest offered us their 1st rounder plus a couple of players…Lamont Jordan and Anthony Becht I think it was.

Quite frankly, I’m surprised that a guy from the business world as Snyder is, would have done such a poor job negotiating. Sure, he had a HOF coach who was chomping at the bit for a premier RB. However, the smart thing to do would have been to keep our powder dry, so to speak. In the end, we still would have gotten Portis anyway had we negotiated better as Portis wanted out of Denver almost as much as Champ wanted out of DC. He wanted more $$$ and there was no way Shanahan was going to give it up until his contract renewal came up.

The only difference in the outcome is that we would have had that extra 2nd round pick to shore up other areas on the team that needed help. At worst we would have probably had to give up a late round pick. Again, the real point isn't about whether Portis is better than Champ but rather that we got hosed Davey, we got hosed.:mad:

[hitmandm]

the reaction by most redskin fans' to that trade is flawed because they never address the question. instead, they something like "we couldnt keep bailey anyways so..."

that's not the question.

the question is, REGARDLESS of the situation, how did the value of the trade work out?

And the answer is the Redskins were abolutley, positively robbed. It was a terrible trade for the Redskins.

Portis is a good (not elite) RB. He's not in my top 5 at his own position. Champ Bailey is in the top 5 - of ANY position.

Now, the CB position FAR outweighs the importance of the RB position - another blow to this trade. RB's are almost a dozen. No, Portis isn't a dime-a-dozen but you can plug in a Ladell Betts as your starter and win football games. You can't just plug in a Mike Rumph for example and win games.

CB along with QB perhaps LT and Kicker are the most important positions in the game.

Finally, throw in a HIGH 2nd round draft pick to boot - this was nothing short of awful.

The avg at-his-prime for RB is also much shorter in years compared to almost any position - including CB.

It was a mistake.

I diasgree with most of what you said for reasons that most have covered. The one thing I agree with you about is the second rd pick, which was a huge mistake. Clinton for Bailey straight-up is a good trade and I would make that any day. Tossing in the second rounder was a mistake...no ands ifs or buts about it.

[BleedBNG]

The only difference in the outcome is that we would have had that extra 2nd round pick to shore up other areas on the team that needed help. At worst we would have probably had to give up a late round pick. Again, the real point isn't about whether Portis is better than Champ but rather that we got hosed Davey, we got hosed.:mad:

Can't argue with this.

We were the first to blink.

[andy hudson]

Champ is a fantastic player, he played out of his skin last week, he's what we have missed in the secondary this year on pass protection.

Don't get me wrong Portis is a fantastic player and I love him playin for the Skins, He can really change a game, the problem is in the rb postions we lack a short yard back like the bus, Portis is very quick and strong. Was it 7 attempts last week to get 3 yards, instead we got a field goal, then got with a safety.

[Insomniac]

You haven't been around long have you? He is not the first, and won't be the last Redskin to leave and have good numbers. Right off the bat, Trent Green, Rich Gannon, Stephen Davis, Lavernues Coles, Sean Gilbert, and Brian Mitchell come to mind.

It happens, we can't change it, and it's completely pointless to say what if? Move on and love the ones your with, they are who we're cheering for now.

[bbuzz1962]

Champ Bailey was not playing at his best here in DC. He was obviously ready to go. When that happens, you must use that opportunity to improve your team.

Clinton Portis is one of the most respected RB's in this league, and he will only get better. It was a great trade for both teams, which rarely happens anymore.