Champ Bailey

[jcameronmk]

Hindsight is 20/20, and I love Clinton Portis, but looking back, ESPN says he's by far the best corner in the league, and after last weeks game I would probably agree.

Not trying to make people mad, just trying to make conversation. And yes I know this has been talked to death, but I did a search and nothing recent came back.

Here's some of the running backs who were selected after Campbell's pick (25th of first round.) Some of them are pretty productive where they are, some aren't:

Round 2, pick 44: J.J. Arrington (Arizona)

Round 2, pick 54: Eric Shelton (Carolina)

Round 3, pick 65: Frank Gore (San Francisco)*

Round 3, pick 73: Vernand Morency (Houston)

Round 3, pick 77: Ryan Moats (Philadelphia)

Round 3, pick 101: Maurice Clarett (Denver)

Round 4, pick 109: Marion Barber III (Dallas)*

Round 4, pick 110: Brandon Jacobs (New York Giants)

Undrafted: Mike Bell (Denver)*

In 2004, there weren't many backs who were available after we picked Sean Taylor and Chris Cooley (even I won't go as far as to say we shouldn't have picked them up.) Michael Turner (San Diego) has had a few good games.

Clinton has been the face of the franchise (especially since LaVar left) and I love him to death, but do you guys think he was worth Champ and that round 2 pick? Worth mentioning are our current struggles at corner. We'd be the deepest secondary in the league with Bailey, Springs, and Carlos Rogers.

Before you guys shoot me down, think of this: Would Denver trade back Bailey and a second round pick for Portis? Probably not, even though he is better than any back they've had since.

[COOLhandsCOOLEY]

considering champ no longer wanted to be here: YES...

Case Closed!

[Betterman]

Round 3, pick 101: Maurice Clarett (Denver)

Damn it, talk about the ONE that got away!!:doh: Maybe we can still pick him up in 5 years (or whatever he's serving) when he's out of prison:laugh: I would trade CP for a felon anyday!!

[BuryYourDuke]

We have a winner. Once a player doesn't want to play here, it's pretty much over. I felt like Champ really sucked his last season here, even if his numbers were good. Just seemed like he got burnt all the time...but he is pretty bad ass now...and so is just about everyone else that leaves haha. Just seems like thats the way it works. I keep waiting for Jeff George and Danny Wuerffel to have MVP seasons.

[Jofizz]

Champ was unhappy here. I wouldn't want cancers that would ruin our chemistry.

I'm 150% happy with Clinton Portis here in D.C.

[soccerdude8821]

the man didnt want to be here! he would have left regardless, we got a second rounder for clinton portis, either way, champ was gone, this has been said way too many times in past posts

[jr41911]

Champ was unhappy here. I wouldn't want cancers that would ruin our chemistry.

I'm 150% happy with Clinton Portis here in D.C.

I agree totally. CP is a class act and is great on and off the field. I feel happy to have him as a Redskin. Champ is having his first good season in a long time. He hasn't even began to do in Denver what CP has done in D.C.

[skins1206]

Champ is sick. That being said, Portis threw us on his back last year and led us to the playoffs. I dont know that the 5 game run happens without portis.

[MumboSauce]

Yeah that pretty much does it..he didn't want to be a Redskin any longer so the rest is forgone and moot.

He is a tremendous corner..probably the best in the game...while Clinton is a top 5 back. Ladanian, Tiki, LJ, Clinton...Alexander has been hobbled and lost some of his line..but so did LJ for that matter.

So I'm fine with the trade and I'm glad we have Clinton. Don't think the pick needed to be thrown in..but that's done now.

[laurent]

[Oxtalls]

the reaction by most redskin fans' to that trade is flawed because they never address the question. instead, they something like "we couldnt keep bailey anyways so..."

that's not the question.

the question is, REGARDLESS of the situation, how did the value of the trade work out?

And the answer is the Redskins were abolutley, positively robbed. It was a terrible trade for the Redskins.

Portis is a good (not elite) RB. He's not in my top 5 at his own position. Champ Bailey is in the top 5 - of ANY position.

Now, the CB position FAR outweighs the importance of the RB position - another blow to this trade. RB's are almost a dozen. No, Portis isn't a dime-a-dozen but you can plug in a Ladell Betts as your starter and win football games. You can't just plug in a Mike Rumph for example and win games.

CB along with QB perhaps LT and Kicker are the most important positions in the game.

Finally, throw in a HIGH 2nd round draft pick to boot - this was nothing short of awful.

The avg at-his-prime for RB is also much shorter in years compared to almost any position - including CB.

It was a mistake.

[AllAboutSkins08]

Champ is sick. That being said, Portis threw us on his back last year and led us to the playoffs. I dont know that the 5 game run happens without portis.

took the words right out of my mouth.

i honestly don't think that 5 game run would've happened if we didn't have portis.

in fact, i would say another losing season would have been in store if we still had champ. CP brings so much more than just being able to run the ball, a lot of things i don't think Champ had when he was here.

CP > Champ

[Oxtalls]

Champ is sick. That being said, Portis threw us on his back last year and led us to the playoffs. I dont know that the 5 game run happens without portis.

Champ is great as you say. Portis you say. But you forgot to mention Bell for Denver - a 1000 yard back in his own right - with a higher avg per carry than Portis...he in effect was a part of that trade too.

denver traded a RB, and got a starting RB and hall of fame corner in return...washington just got a rb.

[AllAboutSkins08]

the question is, REGARDLESS of the situation, how did the value of the trade work out?

And the answer is the Redskins were abolutley, positively robbed. It was a terrible trade for the Redskins.

i don't agree at all. nobody is knocking champ for the GREAT CB that he is. but CP being a great back is not the only thing he brings to the table. he can block like nothing i've ever seen from a RB. he scares defenses (which is something i can't really say for ladell). and he is a true leader on offense. his character is a big reason why so many fans and players love him. gibbs needed a back that could handle the load and who had the kind of character that could fire up our players and never quit and we got that. maybe we shouldn't have given a second rounder in addition to champ. maybe that was "too much". but if you asked me if i would do that trade again knowing what would happen last season, i'd do it 10 out of 10 times.

[fuji869]

considering champ no longer wanted to be here: YES...

Case Closed!

[Oxtalls]

i don't agree at all. nobody is knocking champ for the GREAT CB that he is. but CP being a great back is not the only thing he brings to the table. he can block like nothing i've ever seen from a RB. he scares defenses (which is something i can't really say for ladell). and he is a true leader on offense. his character is a big reason why so many fans and players love him. gibbs needed a back that could handle the load and who had the kind of character that could fire up our players and never quit and we got that.

denver's defense is outstanding and Bailey is a major part of it. maybe the biggest part of it. The Redskins offense, rarely has been as good as the Broncos defense over the length of the 3 years since the trade.

In the end, people are going to look at Denver and the Redskins - see which team wins on the field and which team doesnt and that's gonna end it. And right now, it's all Denver. Look at their record in 2004, 2005, and now this season. Compare that to Portis's Redskins.

Plus, Denver got a HIGH 2nd round pick they used to replace Portis with and that guy has put similar numbers at times to what POrtis has done in Washington!

character, scaring defenses, any other non-measurables you wanna come up with? Because the measurables - the value of the 2nd round pick, the actual performance of Bailey vs. Portis over this time, and the weight most teams (except the Redskins, of course) put on the value of the CB position far outweighing the importance of the RB position make this a no contest - Denver.

maybe we shouldn't have given a second rounder in addition to champ. maybe that was "too much".

well, that's sorta what we're talkin about here, fella.

[Byebye]

Champ is great as you say. Portis you say. But you forgot to mention Bell for Denver - a 1000 yard back in his own right - with a higher avg per carry than Portis...he in effect was a part of that trade too.

denver traded a RB, and got a starting RB and hall of fame corner in return...washington just got a rb.

dang..are you CB's agent or something? hall of fame corner?? he's having a great year this year, but he's also has had his ups and downs in earlier years. he has to do what he's doing now for 5 more years before I consider him HOF worthy.

If Portis does what's he's been doing for 5 more years (1500 yard seasons), I think we will start to hear talk of him being HOF worthy too...

Anyway..both teams won in this trade..did they get more value? prolly so...cuz they knew we would have to cut bailey anyway...where as they didn't have the same pressure

[oriolesfan93p]

Hindsight is 20/20, and I love Clinton Portis, but looking back, ESPN says he's by far the best corner in the league, and after last weeks game I would probably agree.

Not trying to make people mad, just trying to make conversation. And yes I know this has been talked to death, but I did a search and nothing recent came back.

Here's some of the running backs who were selected after Campbell's pick (25th of first round.) Some of them are pretty productive where they are, some aren't:

Round 2, pick 44: J.J. Arrington (Arizona)

Round 2, pick 54: Eric Shelton (Carolina)

Round 3, pick 65: Frank Gore (San Francisco)*

Round 3, pick 73: Vernand Morency (Houston)

Round 3, pick 77: Ryan Moats (Philadelphia)

Round 3, pick 101: Maurice Clarett (Denver)

Round 4, pick 109: Marion Barber III (Dallas)*

Round 4, pick 110: Brandon Jacobs (New York Giants)

Undrafted: Mike Bell (Denver)*

In 2004, there weren't many backs who were available after we picked Sean Taylor and Chris Cooley (even I won't go as far as to say we shouldn't have picked them up.) Michael Turner (San Diego) has had a few good games.

Clinton has been the face of the franchise (especially since LaVar left) and I love him to death, but do you guys think he was worth Champ and that round 2 pick? Worth mentioning are our current struggles at corner. We'd be the deepest secondary in the league with Bailey, Springs, and Carlos Rogers.

Before you guys shoot me down, think of this: Would Denver trade back Bailey and a second round pick for Portis? Probably not, even though he is better than any back they've had since.

Champ wanted out of Washington, plain and simple, we wanted a good running back and he wanted out of washington. That being said, for a CB that was damned good but wasn't showing he was as good as he is now Denver wasn't willing to give up CP straight up, and it took that second round pick to move the players.

Now, would Denver make that trade in reverse? Well it would depend on the situation really, if they had no Back doing anything and had nothing but losing seasons for years and Bailey wanted out while not showing he was the Best in the league (damned near but not the best) Then I honestly say yes they do.

What you leave out of your equations is that Bailey wanted out and wasn't happy, and if a player isn't happy where he is then he isn't going to perform to the level he is capable. CP wasn't happy where he was aswell, he liked it there but they seemed that their system was what made him the back he was and not his ability so they weren't going to pay him the money he wanted...

[vegeta613]

What's up with this Champ was unhappy here and wanted out stuff??

That's not really how I remembered it

Champ was willing to stay but just wanted to be paid what he is worth

Danny Lowballed him and just didn't want to pay him the deal he wanted so of course at that point he wanted out

If the Skins wanted to keep Champ they could've but he just didn't fit into the Shock and Awe Spending spree plan (Washington, Griffin, Brunell, Springs,)

They gave Portis the Contract Champ rejected

[Mister Happy]

RB's are almost a dozen. No, Portis isn't a dime-a-dozen but you can plug in a Ladell Betts as your starter and win football games.

You should go back and watch our offense when Portis was injured. It's horrible. We can't win diddly without Portis.

[NoVaSkins21]

considering champ no longer wanted to be here: YES...

Case Closed!

There was a reason why Champ didn't want to be here. He was tired of the constant turnover this franchise had been going through. I wonder what the defense would be like if they still had Champ, Smoot, and Pierce right now?

[Mister Happy]

I'm with you on the 2nd round pick, but let's not leave Springs out of the equation. If we keep Champ, then we don't sign Springs. Even though this is not the literal trade, the trade is ultimately Champ + some RB -OR- Portis + Springs.

Our D went from 25th to 3rd when Bailey left. The dropoff between Bailey and Springs is not nearly what it is for Portis and, let's say, Betts. If you can convince me that we sign another top flight RB (No, Tatum Bell is not one.), I might change my mind. Otherwise, I like the trade.

As far as the 2nd round pick, that's just poor negotiating by Danny. Instead of haggling and risking not getting what he wants, he tends to overpay to guarantee that he gets what he wants. Sometimes it's fine. Sometimes not. This time, I think it wasn't, but we'll never know.

[Mister Happy]

I wonder what the defense would be like if they still had Champ, Smoot, and Pierce right now?

It was ranked 25th with those guys and Trotter and a healthy LaVar.

I wonder what our offense would be without Portis and Moss. We sign Champ, Smoot and Pierce and we don't get Portis and Moss.

[FS36]

the reaction by most redskin fans' to that trade is flawed because they never address the question. instead, they something like "we couldnt keep bailey anyways so..."

that's not the question.

the question is, REGARDLESS of the situation, how did the value of the trade work out?

And the answer is the Redskins were abolutley, positively robbed. It was a terrible trade for the Redskins.

Portis is a good (not elite) RB. He's not in my top 5 at his own position. Champ Bailey is in the top 5 - of ANY position.

Now, the CB position FAR outweighs the importance of the RB position - another blow to this trade. RB's are almost a dozen. No, Portis isn't a dime-a-dozen but you can plug in a Ladell Betts as your starter and win football games. You can't just plug in a Mike Rumph for example and win games.

CB along with QB perhaps LT and Kicker are the most important positions in the game.

Finally, throw in a HIGH 2nd round draft pick to boot - this was nothing short of awful.

The avg at-his-prime for RB is also much shorter in years compared to almost any position - including CB.

It was a mistake.

Quit talking down to people. You're using fuzzy logic. Simply stating that it's the case doesn't make it so. RB is less important than CB b/c you can plug in anyone at running back and win, but that's not the case for CB? You're really reaching there. You use a Portis/Betts and Bailey/Rumph analogy. That in itself destroys your credibility. The talent drop off from Rumph to Bailey is far steeper than Portis to Betts. Betts could be the starting back for several teams, can't say the same for Rumph.

Football inherently being probably the sport that requires so much out of a team as a unit cohesively, it's possible to argue that ANY one position is the most important. Your reasoning for that is b/c as I mentioned before you believe RB is somewhat of a plug-and-play position. Explain then please why Portis was able to put up the numbers he did while in Den and Bell has yet to even come CLOSE. The only thing Bell has that Portis has is speed. That's it. There's a reason why Portis was the workhorse while in Den, and Bell has or had to fight off Mike Bell, Ron Dayne, and Cedric Cobbs off for a job. AND couldn't beat Mike Anderson for a job.

Work on backing up your logic. Just b/c you can write if/then sentences, doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.

EDIT: Champ isn't as good as most people think. He just gets all the media attention. Watch BOTH corners for the Ravens play, or Mathis on the Jags, or Hall on the Falcs, or Clements with the Bills, or Vasher with the Bears. All those guys could give Bailey a run for his money. Vasher had an 8 pick year last year as a sophomore. That matches Bailey's best season.

[bedlamVR]

Bailey was never ranked when he was here it was always Law, McAlister even Clements and Deon before him in many rankings ... The hype machine only gets behind Champ after he leaves Washington.