Czabe on Skins 10/10

[skins4eva]

Wynn is a holdover from the Spurrier era. And he's actually played very well for us since Gibbs took over. And he's now a backup.

I'm not sure I'd lump him in with the others on that list.

Again, if we are exaggerating, it tends to weaken the point.

See Henry--you're idea of "very well" and my idea of "very well" are different. I would argue that we have become so accustomed to mediocrity and average performances in the last 15 yrs that we believe someone like Wynn has played "very well" for us. He's been average, maybe above average at times, but nothing more than that. The same can be said for all of the D-line except Griffin and perhaps Daniels, and 2 out of our 3 linebackers.

[natem985]

cant blame brunell or any qb without time to set the play up and even attempt a pass downfield.

-You gotta realize that thats the whole point. The ONLY time Brunell is effective is when he has time. QBs in this league are not going to have all day to throw EVERY down. Sometimes, the pocket will collaspe and they're going to have to make plays on their own...whether it is scrambling, or (given Brunell's lack of mobility nowadays) stepping INTO the pressure--something I have yet to see Brunell do this year-- and making that clutch throw on 3rd down.

For example, Jake Plummer. I think he's an avg QB. In the MNF game yesterday against a vicious Ravens D, he has 6 passing yds in the 1st half. 6. Horrendous. In the 2nd half he continued to get pressured and hit; the pocket collasped almost every passing play. Yet he led his team down the field in the 4th, making key plays on the TD drive that sealed the win.

Brunell can't do that anymore; instead of playing to win, we've been playing not to lose, something which makes sense I guess, given Gibbs' and Brunell's tendencies to stay conservative.

Can you even imagine Brunell's effectiveness against a D like the Ravens? Can you imagine his numbers in freezing wet conditions? I don't even want to think about it. I kept thinking that in conditions like yesterday, against those defenses Brunell would be lucky to throw for 50 yds.

[Henry]

See Henry--you're idea of "very well" and my idea of "very well" are different. I would argue that we have become so accustomed to mediocrity and average performances in the last 15 yrs that we believe someone like Wynn has played "very well" for us. He's been average, maybe above average at times, but nothing more than that. The same can be said for all of the D-line except Griffin and perhaps Daniels, and 2 out of our 3 linebackers.

See, this is venting. Wynn has never been a superstar. That doesn't mean he sucks. He was an integral part of a defense that for the past two seasons has been absolutely dominant. Mediocrity? What defense were you watching in 2004 and 2005? He's not part of the problem.

Not to mention the facct that he was picked up before this front office was in place. Not to mention that at this point in his career he's just a backup. You know, depth.

And yet, there's his name, thrown out there as proof of this front office's ineptitude.

This defense stinks. We shouldn't need to fabricate reasons to ***** about it.

[Gregpeck99]

Jason --- the Skins already are bad enough ... Gibbs should have known Brunell was washed-up after the Tampa playoff game and started Ramsey against Seattle ... but he did not want to play to win ... only to not lose. This season's preseason was a "red flag" and only those in denial (Gibbs leads here) didn't see it. The team will disintergrate unless Gibbs and Brunell are replaced. Barry Wilburn was right ... despite the win over the Jags ... a game won by luck ... the wheels are falling off. Campbell should start against the Titans.

[skins4eva]

See, this is venting. Wynn has never been a superstar. That doesn't mean he sucks. He was an integral part of a defense that for the past two seasons has been absolutely dominant. Mediocrity? What defense were you watching in 2004 and 2005? He's not part of the problem.

Not to mention the facct that he was picked up before this front office was in place. Not to mention that at this point in his career he's just a backup. You know, depth.

And yet, there's his name, thrown out there as proof of this front office's ineptitude.

This defense stinks. We shouldn't need to fabricate reasons to ***** about it.

I think you are completely missing my point. I'm not really saying Wynn is a terrible player by any means, and you're right, he doesn't belong in the category of Wright and Rumph...he's certainly a better player than that. But, why do you feel the need to completely brush aside everything I have to say about this team as "venting?" How does that add anything constructive to the debate?

How long has this team been in need of an actual pass-rusher? When was the last time we drafted a de? Was it Kenard Lang? Now starting for a very good defense in Denver? My point is that our front office has failed to address our needs for years and years. We bring in players like ARE and Lloyd and neglect things like secondary depth, LB depth and DE.

I'm not venting, I'm merely expressing my opinion.

[Henry]

Can you even imagine Brunell's effectiveness against a D like the Ravens? Can you imagine his numbers in freezing wet conditions? I don't even want to think about it. I kept thinking that in conditions like yesterday, against those defenses Brunell would be lucky to throw for 50 yds.

I thought the same thing, and then he torched the Jacksonville defense for 329 yards and 3 TDs.

I think the knock on Brunell at this point is that he's only as good as the team around him. Pushing the ball downfield doesn't seem to be a problem when the team is playing well.

I'm not sure a rookie would be any better.

[skins4eva]

I thought the same thing, and then he torched the Jacksonville defense for 329 yards and 3 TDs.

I think the knock on Brunell at this point is that he's only as good as the team around him. Pushing the ball downfield doesn't seem to be a problem when the team is playing well.

I'm not sure a rookie would be any better.

But having the team play well shouldn't be a prerequisite for pushing the ball downfield. The thing that kills me is we never even take shots anymore. Teams know Brunell can't get the ball to anyone more than 10 yards away from the LOS.

[natem985]

I thought the same thing, and then he torched the Jacksonville defense for 329 yards and 3 TDs.

I think the knock on Brunell at this point is that he's only as good as the team around him. Pushing the ball downfield doesn't seem to be a problem when the team is playing well.

I'm not sure a rookie would be any better.

Yeah I see what you mean. And Brunell has his moments. He just needs the BMW that is the offense to be running 100% smoothly. Essentially he needs the Oline to be about 120% One kink in any part of the car, and it all goes to hell.

[Henry]

How long has this team been in need of an actual pass-rusher? When was the last time we drafted a de? Was it Kenard Lang? No starting for a very good defense in Denver? My point is that our front office has failed to address our needs for years and years. We bring in players like ARE and Lloyd and neglect things like secondary depth, LB depth and DE.

We brought in Carter, didn't we? If he's not working out that's one thing, but you can't say the team didn't even ATTEMPT to address the DE spot. We lost secondary depth when we lost Prioleau and Clemons and Springs before the season started. Years and years? Our CB and LB depth has been an issue for years and years?

In general I agree with you. I thought we should have drafted a DE instead of Campbell and kept Ramsey. I thought we should have re-signed Harris and Clark.

Maybe my moves would have worked better than signing Carter and Wright and Archelleta and trading for Rumph. Maybe not. But one thing I can't complain about is the Front Offices unwillingness to address these spots. They did, just not the way I would have.

Frankly, the biggest area of concern in my opinion is OL depth. But noone is complaining about that because noone's hurt yet. It's easy to complain after the fact. You and I can do that all day. I expect more from guys that are PAID to give us some analysis, though. Like Czaban. Right now he's just pandering. I get enough of that here.

[Henry]

But having the team play well shouldn't be a prerequisite for pushing the ball downfield. The thing that kills me is we never even take shots anymore. Teams know Brunell can't get the ball to anyone more than 10 yards away from the LOS.

Anymore? One game guy. It's not like that 329 yard game was three years ago. It was last week.

Look, I agree that Brunell can drive a fan crazy with his hot and cold streaks. But would you rather have a guy like Bledsoe, who pushes the ball downfield just fine, but throws three picks a game? If you don't have a superstar QB, like 90% of the teams in the league, your guy is going to have holes in his game. In my opinion we can live with Brunell's imperfections. He's not going to single-handedly lead this team to greatness, but he's not holding it back either.

Czaban is right about one thing. Until the defense rights itself, nothing Brunell does is going to matter.

[skins4eva]

We brought in Carter, didn't we? If he's not working out that's one thing, but you can't say the team didn't even ATTEMPT to address the DE spot. We lost secondary depth when we lost Prioleau and Clemons and Springs before the season started. Years and years? Our CB and LB depth has been an issue for years and years?

In general I agree with you. I thought we should have drafted a DE instead of Campbell and kept Ramsey. I thought we should have re-signed Harris and Clark.

Maybe my moves would have worked better than signing Carter and Wright and Archelleta and trading for Rumph. Maybe not. But one thing I can't complain about is the Front Offices unwillingness to address these spots. They did, just not the way I would have.

Frankly, the biggest area of concern in my opinion is OL depth. But noone is complaining about that because noone's hurt yet. It's easy to complain after the fact. You and I can do that all day. I expect more from guys that are PAID to give us some analysis, though. Like Czaban. Right now he's just pandering. I get enough of that here.

Ok, fair enough, Henry. The reason I tend to shy away from OL depth is because it's the biggest issue for any team. There is no team where the OL is so deep that there isn't a serious drop in talent from starter to reserve. You can't replace star tackles in this league guards or even centers for that matter.

Signing a reject from the 49ers was not my idea of upgrading at DE. Maybe we need some serious scouting and personnel evaluation revisions on this team. This guy had 1, 1 decent season in San Fran and has sucked every season since. But, since GW thinks he can turn anyone into a star in his system, we signed him. And now we have a 30 million dollar monumental failure. I mean, the dude just got abused on Sunday by some no-name on the Giants o-line. They sealed him effectively on every running play. It was absolutely pathetic.

[Henry]

Signing a reject from the 49ers was not my idea of upgrading at DE. Maybe we need some serious scouting and personnel evaluation revisions on this team. This guy had 1, 1 decent season in San Fran and has sucked every season since. But, since GW thinks he can turn anyone into a star in his system, we signed him. And now we have a 30 million dollar monumental failure. I mean, the dude just got abused on Sunday by some no-name on the Giants o-line. They sealed him effectively on every running play. It was absolutely pathetic.

I totally agree. Maybe Williams started to believe his own press clippings. I don't know. But losing one CB shouldn't cause a top ten defense to come crashing down like this. Something just isn't right. I don't think it's as simple as Czaban's making it out to be.

[KingGibbs]

So we should be picking up RBs and WRs up off the scrap heap, but not LBs? I didn't realize WLB was so much more important than offensive skill positions.

Henry, why even go there? That's a stupid argument. I never said anything about RB's or WR's none of which we picked up off the "scrap heap." The fact that you had to go that extent only strenghthens my argument.

Just for the record I am in no way, shape or form giving up on this team like many are. I know who is running this team. I just thought I stopped getting blue balls in my teens because this team has been teasing us.

Another thing I wanted to point out is that I completely understand the frustrations of the young 'skins fans. They haven't had the opportunity to experience a winner like we have. They're hungry.

[skins4eva]

Anymore? One game guy. It's not like that 329 yard game was three years ago. It was last week.

Look, I agree that Brunell can drive a fan crazy with his hot and cold streaks. But would you rather have a guy like Bledsoe, who pushes the ball downfield just fine, but throws three picks a game? If you don't have a superstar QB, like 90% of the teams in the league, your guy is going to have holes in his game. In my opinion we can live with Brunell's imperfections. He's not going to single-handedly lead this team to greatness, but he's not holding it back either.

Czaban is right about one thing. Until the defense rights itself, nothing Brunell does is going to matter.

But, that raises the question: what's the point? What's the point of starting Brunell when we all know he's not leading us to the super bowl. Aren't you in effect supporting the position that we should start Campbell and at least see what he can do? I mean, we don't even know what we have. He hasn't taken a snap in two years. His rookie contract will run at this rate, and he won't even see the field. I just don't get it. Brunell is definitely holding this team back--if you can't see it, get those glasses checked. How many of his incredible 329 yards passing were YAC? About 229 of them. I mean seriously, Brunell is one of the most limited if not the most limited starting QB in the league at this point. And when I say limited, I mean in terms of his arm. Yes, he has some intanglibles, some very good qualities, but he shortens the field that any defense has to defend against, and that, to me, is a serious limitation. I mean, we made the Giants defense look like the '85 bears, and they're 29th in the league! C'mon.

[Dan T.]

I disagree with Czaben when he says that Duckett is like a clone of Sellers. I think a lot of people have this notion of Duckett, that he's primarily a short yardage specialist.

The secret with Duckett is that he's got good speed - great speed for a guy his size. Because was a relatively inexperienced running back coming out of Michigan and was stuck behind Dunn in Atlanta and now Portis in Washington, he is misperceived as a short yardage guy. But he can be a feature back, taking the full load of an offense.

[TheLongshot]

I totally agree. Maybe Williams started to believe his own press clippings. I don't know. But losing one CB shouldn't cause a top ten defense to come crashing down like this. Something just isn't right. I don't think it's as simple as Czaban's making it out to be.

Except it isn't losing one CB that is causing this. We also lost Prioleau, who looks like a bigger loss.

Also, players who made plays last year aren't doing it so far this year. I mean, I haven't heard Griffin's name all that much this year.

Jason

[krsone]

Why? He got benched in 04 right?

Demetric Evans, Jason Campbell and Rocky McIntosh should start every game from here on out. - and I'm assuming Golston will be starting for the rest of the year.

golston too. Cant stand salvea. just takes up space.

[Henry]

Henry, why even go there? That's a stupid argument. I never said anything about RB's or WR's none of which we picked up off the "scrap heap." The fact that you had to go that extent only strenghthens my argument.

Just for the record I am in no way, shape or form giving up on this team like many are. I know who is running this team. I just thought I stopped getting blue balls in my teens because this team has been teasing us.

Another thing I wanted to point out is that I completely understand the frustrations of the young 'skins fans. They haven't had the opportunity to experience a winner like we have. They're hungry.

Sorry KG, I'm not picking on you.

I'm getting on Czaban's case for his bubblegum wrapper analysis. According to him, we shouldn't give RB or WR depth a backward glance, but how DARE we ignore that WLB spot, even though we lost a guy competing for the starting spot in the preseason, and have have a top draft pick waiting in the wings. Or the CB spot, even though our top starter's been out all season. Amazing how convenient it is to bash our strategy since RB and WR depth hasn't really been tested yet, while LB and CB depth has.

You just happened to post on the subject, so I used that.

[skins4eva]

Except it isn't losing one CB that is causing this. We also lost Prioleau, who looks like a bigger loss.

Also, players who made plays last year aren't doing it so far this year. I mean, I haven't heard Griffin's name all that much this year.

Jason

Good point--Griffin is definitely having an off year. The whole defense is playing terribly, hard to put the blame on one player, let's distribute it equally. I think the staff thought Carter would necessitate double-teams, thereby freeing up the other d-line man and allowing us to blitz more effectively....but that dude gets blocked one-on-one like it's nothing.

[KingGibbs]

I thought the same thing, and then he torched the Jacksonville defense for 329 yards and 3 TDs.

I think the knock on Brunell at this point is that he's only as good as the team around him. Pushing the ball downfield doesn't seem to be a problem when the team is playing well.

I'm not sure a rookie would be any better.

Therein lies the problem Henry. Brunell is not exactly a model of consisitency is he? His age has everything to do with it. The only way he will succeed is via perfect protection. That's not possible in today's NFL with the beasts on the defensive side of the ball. A QB has to be able to make something happen when protection breaks down. Mark can no longer do that. It's unfortunate, but it's reality.

[Henry]

But, that raises the question: what's the point? What's the point of starting Brunell when we all know he's not leading us to the super bowl. Aren't you in effect supporting the position that we should start Campbell and at least see what he can do? I mean, we don't even know what we have. He hasn't taken a snap in two years. His rookie contract will run at this rate, and he won't even see the field. I just don't get it. Brunell is definitely holding this team back--if you can't see it, get those glasses checked. How many of his incredible 329 yards passing were YAC? About 229 of them. I mean seriously, Brunell is one of the most limited if not the most limited starting QB in the league at this point. And when I say limited, I mean in terms of his arm. Yes, he has some intanglibles, some very good qualities, but he shortens the field that any defense has to defend against, and that, to me, is a serious limitation. I mean, we made the Giants defense look like the '85 bears, and they're 29th in the league! C'mon.

My first post of the thread: If you are ready to write off the season at 2-3, you have a point. I'm not sure I am yet.

I know Gibbs isn't.

[XxSpearheadxX]

My first post of the thread: If you are ready to write off the season at 2-3, you have a point. I'm not sure I am yet.

I know Gibbs isn't.

I'm not ready to write of the season, but I am ready to write off the superbowl.

I don't consider playing a 1st round pick QB in his 2nd year as writing off the season. It could be a more "successful" season missing the playoffs while learning if JC is the real deal or not than getting booted in the first round and then having Brunell retire, no?

His point is that due to the trade there were two number ones, a third rounder and a fourth round pick this year that are not playing for the skins right now.

But thats exactly where he is wrong. The trade of a "next year's 1st and next years 3rd for a 1st this year" only equates to a 1st rounder and a 3rd rounder "not playing for us"

If you borrow 10 dollars to buy a sandwich today, and say you will pay back a friend tommorow, when you pay him back you didn't spend 20 dollars on the sandwhich did you? That is essentially what Czabe is saying.

Either way, I just hate it because there are so many real mistakes that to say something so inane again and again (just like the CP trade imo) detracts from the real points.

[KingGibbs]

Sorry KG, I'm not picking on you.

I'm getting on Czaban's case for his bubblegum wrapper analysis. According to him, we shouldn't give RB or WR depth a backward glance, but how DARE we ignore that WLB spot, even though we lost a guy competing for the starting spot in the preseason, and have have a top draft pick waiting in the wings. Or the CB spot, even though our top starter's been out all season. Amazing how convenient it is to bash our strategy since RB and WR depth hasn't really been tested yet, while LB and CB depth has.

You just happened to post on the subject, so I used that.

I definitely agree that Czabe's writing is equivalent to a freshman writing for a high school paper.

[jimster]

I'm starting to wonder if our defense is starting to believe their own hype. - They don't seem to have any fire or attitude this year.

[skins4eva]

My first post of the thread: If you are ready to write off the season at 2-3, you have a point. I'm not sure I am yet.

I know Gibbs isn't.

See--i don't think we'd be writing off the season. But, that's a debate for a different day.