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A good read for the Christians....A better read for the Non-Believers!

michael_33

By michael_33
in The Tailgate

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70th Week

70th Week

Posted
Posted

Destino,I think some people like using "scare tactics" when trying to convert a non-believer.While sometimes (but rarely that may work,but mostly on backsliders)it misses the whole message of love,joy peace and longsuffering of Jesus' grace(unmerited favor)

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Prosperity

Prosperity

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Posted

To all of you that say Christianity is no good, I ask that you examine sin and what comes from sinning. I ask that you look hard at things like lying, false witness, adultery, and the rest of it and privately in your own heard consider the fallout. You don't have to admit anything to me or anyone else, you're pride is a demon you have to face on your own terms. Just sit down and think about it. That's a big step and it's the most important IMO.

What are you getting it. I really don't know what you are implying.

Are you saying that those particular sins are reasonable to consider as negaitve?

or

Are you saying that those particular sins are a product of Christian thought and because they are bad and because we agree they are bad (for the most part) then we can also agree that Christianity is therefore good.

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rebornempowered

rebornempowered

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I have a question - why is this thread "A better read for the Non-Believers"? This seems like advanced Christian studies to me and I've never found it to turn anyone on to Christianity. If not discussed in the right tone it makes Christians look like a death cult, bent on bringing about the end.

If Tom Cruise told you the reason to join Scientology was because the alien warlord was going to come back and kill everyone soon - would that make you more or less likely to see his group in a positive light?

It shocks me how often negatives are used to sell Christianity. It's all fire and brimstone with rarely a mention of the meat of Christ's teaching. Rarely is the good works aspect highlighted despite the fact that Christ made it a point to seperate the goats and sheep based on their choices when faced with those in need. Rarely is the call to live a righteous moral life framed as a positive life where you, a single insignificant human, can be a force for good in your community. Instead we get rants about how immoral others are and how bad the world is.

A very good article that sheds a litle light on the topic. I am working on a talk on this exact topic for a conference I am speaking at.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/100/32.0.html

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Destino

Destino

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What are you getting it. I really don't know what you are implying.

Are you saying that those particular sins are reasonable to consider as negaitve?

or

Are you saying that those particular sins are a product of Christian thought and because they are bad and because we agree they are bad (for the most part) then we can also agree that Christianity is therefore good.

I expanded on it a bit more in my post. I'm saying that there is knowledge and perspective to be gained. What you make of it is up to you.

I have a question for you - what sins do you not see as bad specifically? I'm not going to judge you or hand you a book bud I'm just curious. :)

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Zguy28

Zguy28

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Posted

What has always troubled me is trying to interpret verse 34. I have found what I think is pretty accurate.

Matthew 24:32-35

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/od32.html

In verse 34, Jesus said "this generation" would not expire until Jesus returns. What generation was He speaking of? Many people think Jesus was saying that He would definitely return in the generation in which He lived. But, in the context of this chapter, that is clearly not the case. Remember, Jesus gave a series of events that must first come, but He said "the end is not yet." In other words, these thinks[sic] must come, but they are not the signs of His coming. There is no guarantee that the generations that see earthquakes, wars, famines, and pestilences, would also see the second coming. These things have gradually been increasing over a long period of time. But, the ones who see the definite signs, like the "abomination of desolation," and all the signs that follow, will definitely see the second coming of Jesus Christ. It is this generation that Jesus spoke of.
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Destino

Destino

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Destino,I think some people like using "scare tactics" when trying to convert a non-believer.While sometimes (but rarely that may work,but mostly on backsliders)it misses the whole message of love,joy peace and longsuffering of Jesus' grace(unmerited favor)

You know what works on me? Example.

Knowing and talking with people that have left the comforts of the US and modern society behind to go help people in the worst places reaches me. People that don't get all preachy but instead go about the business of doing good. They have a way about them that I find amazing.

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techboy

techboy

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Although Rebornempowered (as always) makes an excellent case for partial Preterism, the problem with this article and its presentation is not its eschatology. Dispensationalism is a 100% orthodox theology, backed by strong exegisis, and many exceptionally intelligent and learned Christians have held and do hold to it. Partial Preterism is also 100% orthodox, backed by strong exegisis. The fact that it is in the extreme minority amongst Christian thinkers is not necessarily a problem, and it doesn't mean that it's wrong. I would suggest, however, that the fact that there are 100% orthodox, Biblically solid arguments for several differing positions regarding eschatology should give all Christians pause and a sense of humility when attempting to address this issue. It's obviously not as cut and dried as many of us would like.

Of course, I'm not going to get into it on either "side", because as always, it is my position that "in house" issues like this should be kept "in house". Non-Christians have a hard enough time with the basic message of the Bible, and asking them to read this kind of stuff is like asking a third grader to take college Physics. Understanding a complex issue like this requires a foundation non-Christians just don't have. I wouldn't even reccomend that newer Christians worry about this kind of stuff. One must understand the basics before going to seminary.

Which brings me to the actual problem with this article (okay, there are several). I swung by the website that hosted that article, Michael33 (and I think you really should have provided a link, by the way), and I noticed something. The article was listed under "Prophecy", not "Evangelism". Could that be because it's not the best evangelistic approach to start quoting Biblical prophecy to a person that doesn't even accept the Bible as an authority in the first place? Might it not be a better idea to get the person to become a Christian first, then start discussing the end times?

A corollary to this was your flippant attitude towards people going to Hell. I might be surprised some day, but to date, I have yet to see a mature, loving approach to eternal torment accompanied by the use of a smiley. Please keep in mind that the purpose of evangelism is to save people from Hell. It's serious. This is why Christians are willing to bother people who may not want to be bothered. It's for their own good. It's a lot easier to present the Gospel when people understand that our motives are pure and others-focused, and I'd suggest that flippant remarks about Hell in this context do not convey that message.

And, if you decide that you want to do a little Old Time Word of God Turn or Burn You Heathen Sinner, For the Day of the Lord is Fast Approaching, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God style presentation (because the Truth has it's place as well- after all, people need to know what they're being saved from, and that's often ignored by today's evangelicals who don't wish to offend), please make sure the article you quote does a good job, and isn't stretching.

Because, the final problem with this article is that while it actually is a pretty sound presentation of one Biblical approach to eschatology, at the bare bones, the author of this article goes to some amazing lengths to stretch current events to match the verses. In other words, the Bible quoting part is fine, but the events used to match the Bible are kind of ridiculous.

Just as a for instance, the quote from Revelation does indeed talk about 200,000,000 soldiers. However, the very next verse talks about those forces breathing fire from their mouths and such, so perhaps it's a bit of a stretch to argue that it's an earthly force?

The article also makes a lot of unfounded accusations, which, quite frankly, look wild-eyed and silly. NGO's waiting to sheperd in the anti-Christ into the United Nations? Multiple false Messiahs, but we'll only list two in a space of 30 years, and simply say the rest of them are unworthy of media coverage? Saddam Hussein (I guess they need to update that one, huh?)

This is why I have a problem with newspaper eschatology, Jack Van Impe style. It's fairly easy to make anything fit, if we try hard enough, and many Christians want the Second Coming so badly that they try way too hard. This leads to the kind of dangers Rebornempowered talks about, and frequently makes Christians look stupid a few years down the road.

By the way, to those who quote the "Day and Hour" verses, the Bible does say to watch for the signs, and the Season. Assuming it hasn't all already happened. ;)

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Zguy28

Zguy28

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You know what works on me? Example.

Knowing and talking with people that have left the comforts of the US and modern society behind to go help people in the worst places reaches me. People that don't get all preachy but instead go about the business of doing good. They have a way about them that I find amazing.

Yes I agree, faith without works is dead indeed. But Destino, we are also called to preach the Word. Preaching the Good News of salvation is a good work as well.
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techboy

techboy

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Wow a whole new conversation started while I was researching some stuff!

Tell me about it. Destino stole my thunder on the "wrong audience" point. :silly:

And Jrockster77, Jesus would totally hang glide. No doubt about it ;).

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Destino

Destino

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Yes I agree, faith without works is dead indeed. But Destino, we are also called to preach the Word. Preaching the Good News of salvation is a good work as well.
I don't deny that. My issue is with how one goes about doing it. You have to know your audience and remember that it's not about YOU it's about the faith. IMO many try to increase their own status among Christians by speaking boldly against sin - and to me to stinks of pride. If the focus is to save souls then why do they spend so much time insulting nonChristians and speaking to crowds of cheering followers?
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No_Pressure

No_Pressure

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Yes I agree, faith without works is dead indeed. But Destino, we are also called to preach the Word. Preaching the Good News of salvation is a good work as well.

Is it a good work when preaching the good word causes someone to reject the religion even further? The only reason I dont go to church or anywhere near organized religion is because I dont want to be told that I am worshiping wrong, or that my ideas about god are wrong. I love my god given ability to think and choose for myself, and it seems to me through all of the contact I have had with those that are preaching the word of god, they all want to tell me I am wrong about god and they are right and if I dont join them and begin to think exactly like them I am going to hell.

I am not bashing a religion because obviously not everybody acts like this but where is the line drawn between spreading the idea of god with openmindedness and understanding, and spreading the fear of hell, and the idea of safety by conformity?

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70th Week

70th Week

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The only reason I dont go to church or anywhere organized religion is because I dont want to be told that I am worshiping wrong,

Here you are trying to put God in your on little box and try to control Him and not really understanding the full greatness of Him.While sometimes I would agree with you that religion sometimes has human hands in it too much(after all, denomination means division)you need to find a place or church that allows you to worship freely so you can continue to grow in christ but do not forsake the assemby of the church for that is where you get your strength and knowledge from.If you are not going to church for that reason alone,you might need to evaluate who has the problem,you or the church.

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jrockster21

jrockster21

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Posted
Here you are trying to put God in your on little box and try to control Him and not really understanding the full greatness of Him.While sometimes I would agree with you that religion sometimes has human hands in it too much(after all, denomination means division)you need to find a place or church that allows you to worship freely so you can continue to grow in christ but do not forsake the assemby of the church for that is where you get your strength and knowledge from.If you are not going to church for that reason alone,you might need to evaluate who has the problem,you or the church.

Bullcrap. A truly benevolent god would not care how you worshipped him. I wouldn't want a god that did. And I believe a god would certainly not care for other mortals trying to dictate how others worship him. Its the thought that counts. If I feel like worshipping Jesus in the middle of a meadow by dancing around a campfire with masks on, I don't think Jesus or his pops would care.

This is my biggest problem with Christianity....instead of embracing the message, you guys spend so much time on dictating what other people do. When in reality, Jesus led by example....if you truly wanted to worship him, that's what you would do as well. Instead you post gloom and doom articles on a message board.

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No_Pressure

No_Pressure

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Posted
Here you are trying to put God in your on little box and try to control Him and not really understanding the full greatness of Him.While sometimes I would agree with you that religion sometimes has human hands in it too much(after all, denomination means division)you need to find a place or church that allows you to worship freely so you can continue to grow in christ but do not forsake the assemby of the church for that is where you get your strength and knowledge from.If you are not going to church for that reason alone,you might need to evaluate who has the problem,you or the church.

See but this is exactly what I am talking about.

I cant understand the full greatness of the creator of the universe unless I have someone else telling me how to? Why not? Why does everybody need a church? That may be what you need, it isnt what I need. I dont need to find strength and knowledge in the words of others. I dont need other people to interperet the bible to me. Just as you could set somebody who has never read the constitution down to read the bill of rights and interperet it and they could come up with two entirely different ideas and still both be wrong, you could set 2 people down the read the bible, get 2 different interpertations and both be wrong. God gave me a brain and I would like to use it. It isnt putting god into a little "box". If I had a narrow view of god in your eyes, whats to say you dont as well? If I went to go to church I would just be trading in my little box for someone elses little box.

This is usually the point where the uber-christians tell me they feel sorry that im not good enough to grasp the big idea they are working with, and tell me im going to go to hell, and that its impossible to practice christianity by yourself, etc. and how arrogant I must be that I think I have a better view on god than they do, when really it is them that are arrogant about their "mastery" of god.

Is it such a terrifying concept that 2 people could think about god in 2 different ways, worship that god in 2 different ways, live their lives in 2 different ways, and still both be correct? Or incorrect?

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Zguy28

Zguy28

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Bullcrap. A truly benevolent god would not care how you worshipped him. I wouldn't want a god that did. And I believe a god would certainly not care for other mortals trying to dictate how others worship him. Its the thought that counts. If I feel like worshipping Jesus in the middle of a meadow by dancing around a campfire with masks on, I don't think Jesus or his pops would care.

This is my biggest problem with Christianity....instead of embracing the message, you guys spend so much time on dictating what other people do. When in reality, Jesus led by example....if you truly wanted to worship him, that's what you would do as well. Instead you post gloom and doom articles on a message board.

Jrock, I see your bullcrap and raise you one.

You totally contradict yourself and become what you despise. Here you are telling people how they should worship (highlighted in Bold). :doh:

I expect DCSportsfan will be chiming in as usual as well soon.

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