A good read for the Christians....A better read for the Non-Believers!

[Zguy28]

A CHALLENGE

I need someone to explain something to me.

Read this verse:

And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

Jesus is obviously quoting Daniel 7:13

I kept looking in the night visions,

And behold, with the clouds of heaven

One like a Son of Man was coming,

And He came up to the Ancient of Days

And was presented before Him.

So, here is my question:

Which direction is the verse in Daniel? Obviously it is up.

Why do we read Matthew 24:30 as being in a downward direction then?

You mean as if its referring to His ascension, not His return?

[Prosperity]

Oh how could I have not seen the error of my ways. Quick somebody baptize me.

[70th Week]

Finally, something I agree with. It didn't. The things prophecied in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 took leading up to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

And I think this is the flaw in your whole post,reborn.The disciples asked Jesus what would be the signs of His returning,and since I didnt hear of His returning in 70 a.d.(or anyone else) Matt.24,Mark 13,Luke 21 hasnt been completely fulfilled.

You can take everything in the first post out of context and link it to any time period in history you wish.The point is Jesus called it "birth pangs" meaning it would get worse on earth leading up to His return.No,no one knows but the Father when Jesus' return is but He said you would know by the signs that it is close,even at the door.

[SkinsD]

This is not a good read for Christians nor non-believers. I am proud to be Catholic and spread the word of God but to do it in this way is foolish. Spread the love of God, not the demise of us all.

[Mr. S]

as Reborn seemed to point out, these articles make it seem like Christians want the "end" to come soon, as in, they want to speed it's arrival just so they can validate themselves. I mean, I know it's not a strong inference, but to me, it seems as if "lets try and validate our ideas by helping destroy humanity!"

I think most Christians of any denomination do not care to preach or impose values. I have many devout Christian friends who have said nothing about religion to me, knowing I believe in Hindu and Buddhist ideas. Some of them are pretty good friends of mine in that they are nice, friendly, and loving. These are the values I see as redeeming from Christianity, and it is how I view most Christians. I can agree and respect their practices and beliefs just as much as they can at least respect mine even if they may not agree with it.

Then the extremely devout evangelicals and whoever come out...:doh:

[70th Week]

as Reborn seemed to point out, these articles make it seem like Christians want the "end" to come soon, as in, they want to speed it's arrival just so they can validate themselves. I mean, I know it's not a strong inference, but to me, it seems as if "lets try and validate our ideas by helping destroy humanity!"

I think most Christians of any denomination do not care to preach or impose values. I have many devout Christian friends who have said nothing about religion to me, knowing I believe in Hindu and Buddhist ideas. Some of them are pretty good friends of mine in that they are nice, friendly, and loving. These are the values I see as redeeming from Christianity, and it is how I view most Christians. I can agree and respect their practices and beliefs just as much as they can at least respect mine even if they may not agree with it.

Then the extremely devout evangelicals and whoever come out...:doh:

I think that is the best way to spread the gospel,to let others see God living in us and thru us.There are just some(the ones you speak of)take some things to the extreme:

Matt.

28:19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

28:20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Some people make it their mission to force things down peoples throat.

[rebornempowered]

And I think this is the flaw in your whole post,reborn.The disciples asked Jesus what would be the signs of His returning,and since I didnt hear of His returning in 70 a.d.(or anyone else) Matt.24,Mark 13,Luke 21 hasnt been completely fulfilled.

You can take everything in the first post out of context and link it to any time period in history you wish.The point is Jesus called it "birth pangs" meaning it would get worse on earth leading up to His return.No,no one knows but the Father when Jesus' return is but He said you would know by the signs that it is close,even at the door.

What does close mean? 2000 years later?!?!?!?

Anyway, they did not ask for when his return they asked for his coming. They were asking about his coming in judgment. The greek word translated coming is used 24 times in the NT and it can mean coming, presence, or arrival but not return.

Read chapter 23. He has just told the pharisees that there house will be left to them desolate. It sets the context for all of Matthew 24.

Did they see Yahweh physically on the clouds when the OT says that he came in judgement on Egypt?

You can take everything in the first post out of context and link it to any time period in history you wish.

Of course you can. That's why there have been 1900 years of false predictions.

Modern dispensationalisms version is dangerous because it basically teaches that the church is a wimp who can't do anything to change the world so just let it go to hell so Jesus can come back and get all those bad sinners.

[rebornempowered]

You mean as if its referring to His ascension, not His return?

Yeps.

[Destino]

Well, nice work, Michael. I think you'd best serve attracting souls to Christianity by becoming a Buddhist.

BTW, the "red heifer" is among us now, but not in the form you think. The Beast has disguised it as a bull. And its energy is fierce and draining. And mixed with alcohol, it leads many to sin. Three or four times some nights.

Red Bull gives you wings! (Leathery evil wings!)

[70th Week]

What does close mean? 2000 years later?!?!?!?

2 Peter 3 says:

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

You sound like you count slackness as those that are mentioned here that insisted He wasnt going to return.

*edit* also,most scholars agree that 2 Peter was written well after 70 a.d. and the events you described already happened and it still mentions Jesus' return.

2 Peter 3:

3(F)Know this first of all, that (G)in the last days (H)mockers will come with their mocking, (I)following after their own lusts,

4and saying, "(J)Where is the promise of His (K)coming? For ever since the fathers (L)fell asleep, all continues just as it was (M)from the beginning of creation."

[Destino]

How pathetic are you that you feel the need to impose your views on others. Your close minded extremist antics are more a betrayal to the nature of your religion and those who actually understand the message behind the book you're citing than anything else. I hope you feel ignorant because it radiates off you.

I really dislike the thinking here. This idea that sharing your opinion is imposing on others is the seed of intolerance. The idea that we need not suffer those who think differently is incredibly arrogant.

[rebornempowered]

2 Peter 3 says:

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

You sound like you count slackness as those that are mentioned here that insisted He wasnt going to return.

Before I answer you know that I have always said that Christ will return in a consumating coming at the end of history. Christ will then deliver His kingdom to His Father. God is not slack in keeping His promises. The church has been lazy and not doing what we were called to do. Christ will be victorious! He shall have dominion. Instead the church is waiting for the easy out end. There are actually people out there who believe that they shouldn't feed the poor because if we make the world a better place Jesus won't return. :doh: Hal Lindsey said that he believes he was sent to fish not clean the fish bowl. I'm sorry Hal but if you don't clean the bowl the fish DIE!

Anyway, back to the task at hand as I step down off my soap box.

Jesus didn't say "soon" though did he? He said that "this generation" will not pass away until all these things take place. 44 times the Greek word translated generation is used in the New Testament. Never can we see a place where it can be said that it is some future far off generation to whom Jesus is speaking.

How could Jesus have been more clear?

Don't forget Matthew 23 sets the context.

Christ prophecied and it was fulfilled. Why are people so scared of that? It seems to me that apologists would jump at the idea that Christ's Word was fulfilled. We know the gospels were written prior to 70 AD and what Jesus said came true.

Doesn't that give the Gospels more authority?

Also, those verses above don't fit very well with a pre-trib rapture now do they. If He comes and destroys everything with fire where will all those left behind live? If anything that is a good verse defending a post-trib view.

[chomerics]

Oh how could I have not seen the error of my ways. Quick somebody baptize me.

Come to the FSM crowd, you can live your afterlife in the beer volcano amidst the wonderful Stripper Factories, now THAT'S what I call an afterlife

Just a note, I am glad to see some of the fellow Christians on this board debunking this as nonsense. While I am not religious, and I make no qualms about my beefs with the RCC, it is nice to know even some of the more ardent believers can see the fallacy of this prophecy.

BTW, lark, great post. I have a lot of experience with the church, and I was raised in the RCC. I noticed exactly the same thing you did. Unfortunately, the people who are the "jerks" as you put it ruin the religion for all of the believers who keep their god private. They do more disservice to the religion then they could ever imagine, and IMHO, telling people that only THEY will be saved because THEY believe is the fastest way NOT to be saved. Again, it is just my opinion, but IF there is a god, I think he would look at your life as a whole, not who or what you believed in. If you live your life with a good heart, and try to better mankind, then there will be a place for you. What some forget is that people like Ghandi were not Christian, yet people like Jeffry Dahmer were. Using two extreme examples, but in the eyes of god who would be taken into heaven? According to the "literalists" as long as Dahmer confessed his sins prior to his death, he would be saved whereas Ghandi would not. Doesn't make sense on the face of it if you ask me.

[70th Week]

Also, those verses above don't fit very well with a pre-trib rapture now do they. If He comes and destroys everything with fire where will all those left behind live? If anything that is a good verse defending a post-trib view.

The rapture and His return have nothing to do with each other.The rapture is a "pulling out" of the saints so the tribulation can begin on earth.The rapture will happen then after the tribulation the events in 2 peter will take place when He returns to set up His kingdom.He will not return at the rapture....two seperate events....

side note...it is always exhilerating to debate with you reborn...we havent done it in a while.... :laugh:

[70th Week]

Come to the FSM crowd, you can live your afterlife in the beer volcano amidst the wonderful Stripper Factories, now THAT'S what I call an afterlife

Just a note, I am glad to see some of the fellow Christians on this board debunking this as nonsense. While I am not religious, and I make no qualms about my beefs with the RCC, it is nice to know even some of the more ardent believers can see the fallacy of this prophecy.

BTW, lark, great post. I have a lot of experience with the church, and I was raised in the RCC. I noticed exactly the same thing you did. Unfortunately, the people who are the "jerks" as you put it ruin the religion for all of the believers who keep their god private. They do more disservice to the religion then they could ever imagine, and IMHO, telling people that only THEY will be saved because THEY believe is the fastest way NOT to be saved. Again, it is just my opinion, but IF there is a god, I think he would look at your life as a whole, not who or what you believed in. If you live your life with a good heart, and try to better mankind, then there will be a place for you. What some forget is that people like Ghandi were not Christian, yet people like Jeffry Dahmer were. Using two extreme examples, but in the eyes of god who would be taken into heaven? According to the "literalists" as long as Dahmer confessed his sins prior to his death, he would be saved whereas Ghandi would not. Doesn't make sense on the face of it if you ask me.

doesnt make sense to you chom,cause you try to rationalize everything. :2cents:

If you live your life with a good heart, and try to better mankind, then there will be a place for you

You are trying to make God into what YOU want him to be,not what He is which is omnipotent,omniscient,and omnipresent.You are trying to put God in this little box and tell Him that you will be rewarded based on what YOU think is right or wrong,not what HE says is right or wrong.

[rebornempowered]

The rapture and His return have nothing to do with each other.The rapture is a "pulling out" of the saints so the tribulation can begin on earth.The rapture will happen then after the tribulation the events in 2 peter will take place when He returns to set up His kingdom.He will not return at the rapture....two seperate events....

side note...it is always exhilerating to debate with you reborn...we havent done it in a while.... :laugh:

Well, you need to tell that to the masses because they call the Rapture "Christ's Return" all the time.

I am going to be honest with you dude. The more I study this (I am a Religion Major at a school that is dispensational) the more I am frightened by the level of Israel worship. John Hagee says that how I treat Israel will affect my eternal salvation.

Is that not disturbingly frightening to you also?

As I stated above it also scares me that Christians are paying for Russian Jews to return to Israel yet they believe 2/3 of the Jews will be killed in the tribulation?

Unfortunately it is usually the nut jobs that define any view but those two things just seem extremely "cultish" to me.

[70th Week]

Well, you need to tell that to the masses because they call the Rapture "Christ's Return" all the time.

I am going to be honest with you dude. The more I study this (I am a Religion Major at a school that is dispensational) the more I am frightened by the level of Israel worship. John Hagee says that how I treat Israel will affect my eternal salvation.

Is that not disturbingly frightening to you also?

As I stated above it also scares me that Christians are paying for Russian Jews to return to Israel yet they believe 2/3 of the Jews will be killed in the tribulation?

Unfortunately it is usually the nut jobs that define any view but those two things just seem extremely "cultish" to me.

Yes,it does raise some questions for me too.Like some people are trying to rush or control God.Hagee takes a few verses like "pray for the peace of Jerusalem" and things like that to make it his mission for the Jews.While I agree with him that there are Jews suffering in states like russia you sometimes have to question some people's motives.That is just like the president of Iran trying to start a war with us to bring back their messiah,I beleive they call him the mahdi. :insane:

[CrabR]

since I didnt hear of His returning in 70 a.d.(or anyone else)

that is because Fox News was not around back then,they only had the evil Roman Liberal press, if he returned today he would be on O'Reilly and Hannity and Combs his first night back

[Zguy28]

You mean as if its referring to His ascension, not His return?

Yeps.

Ok. If that's the case which I'm certainly willing to entertain, what does verse 31 say then?

31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Did this happen in the First Century? Is this the same event as Paul Described in 1 Thess 3 & 4:

13May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

What does Matt 37-41 say?

37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Is this a rapture of the church? Is it His return?

These are just questions, not necessarily my opinion on the matter.

I'm curious to know your opinion Reborn...

[70th Week]

These are just questions, not necessarily my opinion on the matter.

oh c'mon Z,just go ahead and say what you want you want to say. :laugh:

[prophet]

Luke 21 & Matt 24 are not the same event. I will break this down later.(i'm on vacation).

Why support the Jews? G-d says I will bless those who bless them, and curse those that curse them. G-d did not change His mind on this issue.

Also, in the midst of great destruction the Jews as a whole will turn back to G-d. When the Messiah returns to set up His kingdom on Earth, 100% of the Jews alive will serve Him.

Discussing the endtimes is great.

[rebornempowered]

Ok. If that's the case which I'm certainly willing to entertain, what does verse 31 say then?

31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Did this happen in the First Century? Is this the same event as Paul Described in 1 Thess 3 & 4:

13May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

What does Matt 37-41 say?

37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Is this a rapture of the church? Is it His return?

These are just questions, not necessarily my opinion on the matter.

I'm curious to know your opinion Reborn...

I will get to this later. I am not ignoring it. I don't have time to break it all down and need to re-read a portion of some books. I did my first post in this thread mostly from memory but that was early in the morning and now my brain is fried.

[Mooka]

When Africa is a country, I'll believe it's the end of the world.

[Zguy28]

oh c'mon Z,just go ahead and say what you want you want to say. :laugh:

TO be honest, I used to get into all of this prophecy and rapture stuff. But not anymore, the Lord will come when the time is fulfilled, which only the Father knows. BUT we should not be ignorant of the signs. :2cents:

[Destino]

I have a question - why is this thread "A better read for the Non-Believers"? This seems like advanced Christian studies to me and I've never found it to turn anyone on to Christianity. If not discussed in the right tone it makes Christians look like a death cult, bent on bringing about the end.

If Tom Cruise told you the reason to join Scientology was because the alien warlord was going to come back and kill everyone soon - would that make you more or less likely to see his group in a positive light?

It shocks me how often negatives are used to sell Christianity. It's all fire and brimstone with rarely a mention of the meat of Christ's teaching. Rarely is the good works aspect highlighted despite the fact that Christ made it a point to seperate the goats and sheep based on their choices when faced with those in need. Rarely is the call to live a righteous moral life framed as a positive life where you, a single insignificant human, can be a force for good in your community. Instead we get rants about how immoral others are and how bad the world is.

Does this approach work for you folks? Have you saved many souls this way?

To all of you that say Christianity is no good, I ask that you examine sin and what comes from sinning. I ask that you look hard at things like lying, false witness, adultery, pride, and the rest of it and privately consider the fallout. You don't have to admit anything to me or anyone else. Just sit down and think about it. That's a big step, it's the framework on which the rest is built. The next step is Jesus, I'm not saying you need to fall on your knees and cry, just read about what he did.

If you are like me, you'll have an experience not entirely unlike the experience you had after completing some basic economics courses. Yeah you read that right, I said economics. You'll look around and see how many people claiming to know what they are talking about are full of ****. You'll see what things that seem good in the short term lead to major harm down the road. Maybe your faith will grow, maybe it won't - but you'll be able to see a lot of things differently.