Build a winner thru free agency? It has been done before.

[FuriousD]

Don't post much but I do read alot. A couple of days ago I was reading a thread that boiled down to trades / free agency vs the draft and building a winner. Pro's and con's. Today I can't remember which post it was so I thought I'd post anew.

Seemed that many believed that it couldn't be done in todays NFL and I'm not here to argue what is "todays" NFL but I am here to argue that it has been done before.

You can tell me if you agree or not.

I'm talking about Joe Gibbs and the '91 Super Bowl Champion Washington Redskins. Nice ring to it doesn't it?

This is from memory as I couldn't find an original roster and my memory is hazy so,......

Defense: D-line additions through FA or trade were Tim Johnson, Mike Williams and Fred Stokes. Mann was drafted. That's 3 out of 4 starters. Geathers came of the bench; also FA.

Linebackers: Wilbur Marshall was a FA (one of the first franchise tags to ever relocate) Gouveia was a draft pick I think and I cant remember who the other 'backer was! Help me out here.

Secondary: Darrell was drafted of course but everyone else back there was either a FA or trade. SS Danny Copeland, FS Brad Edwards and CB Martin Mayhew.

Offense: Most of the O-line were home-grown but Jacoby should be considered a FA and Lachey was a trade.

QB: Draft pick.

RB's: Byner was a trade. Riggs was a FA, I think and Ervins a draft pick.

WR's: Monk = draft pick, Clark was a FA and Sanders was a trade (NE, if I remember correctly).

TE's. Draft picks.

That's 7 starters on D from either trade or FA and 5 or 6 on offense. Better than 50% on both sides of the ball.

Clearly, Gibbs and Casserly were perfectly content to trade picks for known quantities and use FA to build their '91 Champion.

Is it any wonder Gibbs is trying again?

Thoughts?

:helmet:

[skinfan2k]

GIBBS is GOD.. this franchise is soon going to be the model of the nfl.. we will Win the SBs gibbs guarntees that

[chaz13]

I think you can build a good starting lineup through free agency. But when you spend on FA which are usually overpriced, it doesn't leave much for depth. This is where the draft comes in. You need to have cheap players from the draft for good depth. If we have some injuries on the o-line this year we are in serious trouble. The otherthing that lways concerns me is that players that teams really want they keep. If a player is really good why would a team let them get to FA. I think alot of FA are fringe 1st tier type players or second tier players that want to be paid like the top tier. I just don't think that you always get the value for the money in FA. i.e. Archuleta became the highest paid safety which he clearly is not the best safety in the league. His teammate is better and how much will he want when he becomes a FA. But I trust G. Williams w/ his personnel decisions, as the defensive acquisitions have been very good for the most part.

[dfos81]

Great Coaches can win through FA and the Draft, which is what Gibbs is doing already. He has drafted good for us and built a strong foundation through FA. So I don't see why people say he is trying to build a team just through FA b/c if u look at our draft picks, they made some of the biggest plays for us just to make the playoffs last yr. S.T. fumble recoveries, Cooley's big tds against Big D, and Rogers even made some big plays down the stretch last yr, so how are we not building from the draft?

[jimster]

actually go back and look at the '72 George Allen team that went to the SUperbowl. - That team was loaded with trades and free agents.

[BleedBNG]

Linebackers: Wilbur Marshall was a FA (one of the first franchise tags to ever relocate) Gouveia was a draft pick I think and I cant remember who the other 'backer was! Help me out here.:helmet:

FA Matt Millen? (who was not injured, but did not play in SB XXVI)

[Guest santana4prez]

I always thought it was because of the combination of Brad Johnson's recent injury history at the time and the fact that the whole world watched the Jets season go down the pooper the previous year when their QB went down and there was no adequate back up.

The teams that win the Super Bowl have 2 things. Coaching and Talent. We have both.:helmet:

[praise_gibbs]

Football isn't necessarily won by the best players. It's won by the team with the best attitude.

This quote says it all to me.

Different teams do different things and have reached different successes. Some teams build through the draft and have hopes that they turn out well. While others, go after the free agents mainly because they are already proven in the NFL. There are also teams that do both--I give you the Washington Redskins.

No matter how you build that team though, it all comes down to team chemistry. If your players are clashing then I do not care if you have a fantasy roster--you will not be winning much. Team first attitude wins the games, thats why people that are not supposed to be any good *ahem Chris Cooley ahem** can excel.

[SaltySpice1028]

Linebackers: Wilbur Marshall was a FA (one of the first franchise tags to ever relocate) Gouveia was a draft pick I think and I cant remember who the other 'backer was! Help me out here.:helmet:

I think it was Matt Millen (FA and a heck of a GM) and Andre Collins who was drafted in 1990. As I recall, Millen was injured for the SB and so Collins started in that game (I was 11 then so I may be wrong).

[Fiddler]

There's one huge difference today versus 1972 or 1991: the salary cap. The theory is that with the salary cap, you can't shell out big bucks for everyone on your roster. As a result, some major contributors to the team have to be underpaid so that there's room under the cap for your stars. Those underpaid players are your draftees, especially those from rounds 2-5. Starters with rookie contracts are exceptionally cheap, so the conventional wisdom is that the more of these types of guys you have, the more stars you can afford, and the better your overall team.

There are two problems with this theory as it relates to the Skins. First, the Skins have been able to do a good job of getting production out of UDFAs and low cost free agents, especially on defense: think Lemar Marshall, Antonio Pierce, Ryan Clark, Joe Salavea, etc. Second, the Skins have generally given free agents higher signing bonuses than the rest of the NFL. The main benefit of this is that the deferred SB counts in later years when the cap is higher. This has the effect of allowing the Skins to operate under a higher cap today than other teams. Other teams choose not to do this for two main reasons: 1) most don't have enough cash on hand to pay the SBs (this is where the Skins have a competitive advantage) and 2) if the players don't play out their contracts because of injury or because their ability declines, you have to release them and take the SB hit right away. The Skins have attempted to manage this risk by generally signing younger players ( ages 24-27) who have a chance to play out their contracts, and also by writing in convertible roster bonuses that allow them the flexibility to extend contracts on players before they become free agents. The key is managing the risk. Some cases have not turned out so well like Coles and Morton, but they've been managed (even getting Moss in the bargain).

I think it can be done, but it will take a Super Bowl to get the national media to believe it.

[FuriousD]

I seem to remember that Matt Millen played MLB but only on obvious running downs. He certainly was not fast enough to play the WLB which typically has to have speed enough to cover backs out of the backfield. Gouviea would sub in on passing downs at MLB.

Andre Collins was the guy at WLB. Good memories, guys.

Add Millen to the mix though. He was a FA.

Totally agree about the heart and mind vs talent arguement. The league is loaded with hugely gifted bodies with ten cent heads on their shoulders.

Gibbs and Williams have made it very clear that they don't want these types of players!

:helmet:

[Skins4481]

Great post. Good to know that its been done before. I guess the critics can shut their mouths now. Gibbs knows what hes doing!

[Tarpon75]

I seem to remember that Matt Millen played MLB but only on obvious running downs. He certainly was not fast enough to play the WLB which typically has to have speed enough to cover backs out of the backfield. Gouviea would sub in on passing downs at MLB.

Andre Collins was the guy at WLB. Good memories, guys.

Add Millen to the mix though. He was a FA.

Totally agree about the heart and mind vs talent arguement. The league is loaded with hugely gifted bodies with ten cent heads on their shoulders.

Gibbs and Williams have made it very clear that they don't want these types of play

:helmet:

(Corrected post)Wasn't Monte Coleman in that mix at lb also?When I first posted I had a brain freeze and listed him as Monte Kauffman. Monte Coleman did play lb on that 1991 team.He was drafted by the Skins and spent 16 years on the team.Monte retired in 1993.I think I mixed Monte with Mel Kauffman who also played several years at lb for the Skins prior to 1991.

[redman]

There's one huge difference today versus 1972 or 1991: the salary cap. The theory is that with the salary cap, you can't shell out big bucks for everyone on your roster. As a result, some major contributors to the team have to be underpaid so that there's room under the cap for your stars. Those underpaid players are your draftees, especially those from rounds 2-5. Starters with rookie contracts are exceptionally cheap, so the conventional wisdom is that the more of these types of guys you have, the more stars you can afford, and the better your overall team.

There are two problems with this theory as it relates to the Skins. First, the Skins have been able to do a good job of getting production out of UDFAs and low cost free agents, especially on defense: think Lemar Marshall, Antonio Pierce, Ryan Clark, Joe Salavea, etc. Second, the Skins have generally given free agents higher signing bonuses than the rest of the NFL. The main benefit of this is that the deferred SB counts in later years when the cap is higher. This has the effect of allowing the Skins to operate under a higher cap today than other teams. Other teams choose not to do this for two main reasons: 1) most don't have enough cash on hand to pay the SBs (this is where the Skins have a competitive advantage) and 2) if the players don't play out their contracts because of injury or because their ability declines, you have to release them and take the SB hit right away. The Skins have attempted to manage this risk by generally signing younger players ( ages 24-27) who have a chance to play out their contracts, and also by writing in convertible roster bonuses that allow them the flexibility to extend contracts on players before they become free agents. The key is managing the risk. Some cases have not turned out so well like Coles and Morton, but they've been managed (even getting Moss in the bargain).

I think it can be done, but it will take a Super Bowl to get the national media to believe it.

Good post. I agree with it.

Whether it can be done or not is still to be determined. What's clear is that all successful teams in the salary cap have been been for the most part built via the draft, the skillful signing of UDFA's, and the signing of low profile FA's far, far more than they've been built by signing high profile FA's.

It may be theoretically possible to build a team primarily by signing people expected to start and play all three downs right away, but the fact that that hasn't been done before indicates that it's pretty hard to do.

The good news is that we're no longer trying to do that given that we're now using all methods to build our team.

[DieselPwr44]

Wasn't Monte Kauffman in that mix at lb also?

Monte Coleman.

Now earlier in the 80's we had a LB by the name of Mel Kauffman. If memory serves me correctly it was Rich Milot,Kauffman and Neil Olkewicz as our LB crew in the early 80's.

[Birdlives]

There's one huge difference today versus 1972 or 1991: the salary cap. The theory is that with the salary cap, you can't shell out big bucks for everyone on your roster. As a result, some major contributors to the team have to be underpaid so that there's room under the cap for your stars. Those underpaid players are your draftees, especially those from rounds 2-5. Starters with rookie contracts are exceptionally cheap, so the conventional wisdom is that the more of these types of guys you have, the more stars you can afford, and the better your overall team.

There are two problems with this theory as it relates to the Skins. First, the Skins have been able to do a good job of getting production out of UDFAs and low cost free agents, especially on defense: think Lemar Marshall, Antonio Pierce, Ryan Clark, Joe Salavea, etc. Second, the Skins have generally given free agents higher signing bonuses than the rest of the NFL. The main benefit of this is that the deferred SB counts in later years when the cap is higher. This has the effect of allowing the Skins to operate under a higher cap today than other teams. Other teams choose not to do this for two main reasons: 1) most don't have enough cash on hand to pay the SBs (this is where the Skins have a competitive advantage) and 2) if the players don't play out their contracts because of injury or because their ability declines, you have to release them and take the SB hit right away. The Skins have attempted to manage this risk by generally signing younger players ( ages 24-27) who have a chance to play out their contracts, and also by writing in convertible roster bonuses that allow them the flexibility to extend contracts on players before they become free agents. The key is managing the risk. Some cases have not turned out so well like Coles and Morton, but they've been managed (even getting Moss in the bargain).

I think it can be done, but it will take a Super Bowl to get the national media to believe it.

Solid post. I'll add one more point to this. With the way veteran players are being treated it's also possible to get aging former star players at reasonable salaries as they seem to be left out in the cold.

Anyway, all ways are possible to build a winner, there simply isn't just one way, regardless of what the pundits might preach, it is possible to build a winning franchise many different ways. Via the draft is one trend that has come on recently, so all the talking heads jump on that band wagon. If a team wins a SB some other way and gains some reasonable amount of success, they'll jump on that band wagon. Thats what they do.

Trust in Joe Jack!

[talk show host]

i think its possible, but there is just something to be said for home grown talent, as well. I hope Cooley stays here for life. I would be perfectly happy if the Skins traded away 1st round picks for either stud FA's or 2nd round picks.

[BigDFan5]

When people say it has not been done, they are speaking in modern times with a salary cap. Pre cap you could buy every player with no consequences.

[RiggoReincarnated]

Don't post much but I do read alot. A couple of days ago I was reading a thread that boiled down to trades / free agency vs the draft and building a winner. Pro's and con's. Today I can't remember which post it was so I thought I'd post anew.

Seemed that many believed that it couldn't be done in todays NFL and I'm not here to argue what is "todays" NFL but I am here to argue that it has been done before.

You can tell me if you agree or not.

I'm talking about Joe Gibbs and the '91 Super Bowl Champion Washington Redskins. Nice ring to it doesn't it?

This is from memory as I couldn't find an original roster and my memory is hazy so,......

Defense: D-line additions through FA or trade were Tim Johnson, Mike Williams and Fred Stokes. Mann was drafted. That's 3 out of 4 starters. Geathers came of the bench; also FA.

Linebackers: Wilbur Marshall was a FA (one of the first franchise tags to ever relocate) Gouveia was a draft pick I think and I cant remember who the other 'backer was! Help me out here.

Secondary: Darrell was drafted of course but everyone else back there was either a FA or trade. SS Danny Copeland, FS Brad Edwards and CB Martin Mayhew.

Offense: Most of the O-line were home-grown but Jacoby should be considered a FA and Lachey was a trade.

QB: Draft pick.

RB's: Byner was a trade. Riggs was a FA, I think and Ervins a draft pick.

WR's: Monk = draft pick, Clark was a FA and Sanders was a trade (NE, if I remember correctly).

TE's. Draft picks.

That's 7 starters on D from either trade or FA and 5 or 6 on offense. Better than 50% on both sides of the ball.

Clearly, Gibbs and Casserly were perfectly content to trade picks for known quantities and use FA to build their '91 Champion.

Is it any wonder Gibbs is trying again?

Thoughts?

:helmet:

Gibbs has to prove he can do it in the salary cap/FA era. 1991 was before that.

If he does, then we can say **** you to all those mediots who told us we had to do it their way.

[RiggoReincarnated]

Wasn't Monte Kauffman in that mix at lb also?

Hes the defensive coordinator of TB now :mad:

[Neophyte]

Hes the defensive coordinator of TB now :mad:

Dude, you are thinking of Monte Kiffen. Not Kauffman.

And I thought Gary Clark was a supplimental draft pick by the Skins... Now I have to go check that out.

[DieselPwr44]

Hes the defensive coordinator of TB now :mad:

No. That would be Monte Kiffin.

[skinz4evr]

Great Coaches can win through FA and the Draft, which is what Gibbs is doing already. He has drafted good for us and built a strong foundation through FA. So I don't see why people say he is trying to build a team just through FA b/c if u look at our draft picks, they made some of the biggest plays for us just to make the playoffs last yr. S.T. fumble recoveries, Cooley's big tds against Big D, and Rogers even made some big plays down the stretch last yr, so how are we not building from the draft?

Gibbs is employing a great mix of strategies to field the best team and staff that can be mustered. It is so obvious how much he has learned about how to take advantage of ANY situation that improves your team. He has never worked with coaches who were this knowledgeable and successful. Joe as GM directing all of these brilliant minds and tough players should truly be a sight to behold. :applause: :applause:

[SkinsFTW]

When people say it has not been done, they are speaking in modern times with a salary cap. Pre cap you could buy every player with no consequences.

Seems to me that the Redskins are going about things exactly the same way they did the last time Gibbs was here and won 3 Super Bowls and 4 NFC titles.

The Redskins have known how to deal with the cap for years. The difference now is that they are getting the right players with the money instead of going after the big names. If Gibbs wasn't here we would have signed Kearse/Bailey to major contracts and not Washington, Salavea, Griffen, Portis, Springs, Brunell, and Daniels in 2004. They also probably would have drafted Winslow instead of Taylor too.

[bulldog]

people point to clubs like the Packers and say you have to build through the draft.

amusing when you pick out their leaders over the years and see guys like Reggie White (Eagles), Sean Jones (Oilers), Brett Favre (Falcons), Ahman Green (Seahawks) that all came from other teams via free agency or trade