Immigration Legislation Compromise Announced

[Midnight Judges]

a complete joke, and rediculous that our country has come to this. why do they say everyone here loves cheap labor? why would we? cheap labor will render us all jobless at this rate. why would a company pay us $40,000 with benefits when they can get an illegal to do it for $5.15 an hour and no incentives?

I have read all your posts on this thread and I think you should seriously consider starting your own landscaping company. There are many benefits to owning a company and you could get a government loan to start it, and you could use tax deductions on many expenses, including your vehicle and equipment. This way, you can pay folks to do your old job, not break your back, and make a hell of a lot more money. You could even work with your father and your sister and get their input. There are many knowledgable folks here at extremeskins that can help you with good financial advice.

No illegal can start their own company like that. You can. The opportunity is right in front of you. Go for it!

[chomerics]

Without a second's hesitation or a second's worth of extra thought. So far as I'm concerned illegally entering this country should be a Capital Offense and I will always treat it as though it is.

Massachusetts has "Castle Doctrine". If I feel threatened, I don't have to retreat in my own home. If you're in my house and I don't know why you're there, I'm going to act on the idea that you're there to do me harm or to cease my personal belongings.

I've had a fair amount of training for combat shooting. I shoot several hundred rounds a month in self-defense training. Low-Light, Flashlight, unsupported hand, etc... That includes mental training for the potential of having to shoot another human being. You also have to realize that I think so little of most human beings that shooting one would be little issue for me with almost any level of provocation.

Yes it is based on hatred. Hatred of illegal immigrants. Distrust of anyone who isn't an American (and Americans with this "world citizen" attitude). It's really no more complicated than that. Legal, US Citizens are the only people who should be allowed to be employed here in the US. Pure and Simple.

All I can say is WOW, what a SCARY post. How can you honestly say you are a man who believes in religion if you also believe in this stuff?

I would also venture a guess that your time can be spent worrying about things much more likely to happen in your life, seeing how you live in a town with over 12,000 people and there were 0 murders and only 2 rapes committed there.

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Spencer&state=MA

[Midnight Judges]

Let me start over.

What I am saying is that illegals currently are working for companies that THINK they are legal.

Going forward, would we punish the companies for this practice. And if not, that will be the firt loophole exploited.

Yes we would. Just like a bar tender who THINKS they are serving someone over 21.

[chomerics]

I have read all your posts on this thread and I think you should seriously consider starting your own landscaping company. There are many benefits to owning a company and you could get a government loan to start it, and you could use tax deductions on many expenses, including your vehicle and equipment. This way, you can pay folks to do your old job, not break your back, and make a hell of a lot more money. You could even work with your father and your sister and get their input and their are many knowledgable folks here at extremeskins that can help you with good financial advice.

No illegal can start their own company like that. You can. The opportunity is right in front of you. Go for it!

Why actually do something to better yourself when you can just complain the reason you are not successful is because it is everyone else's fault? That's what the conservatives always use as a defense for people who are underprivilaged right? If it is true about "them" why is it also not true for a conservative? Just wondering. . .

[The 12th Commandment]

Why actually do something to better yourself when you can just complain the reason you are not successful is because it is everyone else's fault? That's what the conservatives always use as a defense for people who are underprivilaged right? If it is true about "them" why is it also not true for a conservative? Just wondering. . .

To be fair, I know plenty of dems who have that same blame the world mentality. I think it is a weakness of character that isn't necessarily political. :2cents:

[Kilmer17]

Yes we would. Just like a bar tender who THINKS they are serving someone over 21.

Read back a bit more. Im not talking about an assumption. Im speaking about an illegal who presents conterfeit papers.

How far does a businessman have to go to prove his employees are legal?

[Midnight Judges]

So far as I'm concerned illegally entering this country should be a Capital Offense and I will always treat it as though it is.

Massachusetts has "Castle Doctrine". If I feel threatened, I don't have to retreat in my own home.

I've had a fair amount of training for combat shooting. I shoot several hundred rounds a month in self-defense training. Low-Light, Flashlight, unsupported hand, etc... That includes mental training for the potential of having to shoot another human being. You also have to realize that I think so little of most human beings that shooting one would be little issue for me with almost any level of provocation.

Yes it is based on hatred. Hatred of illegal immigrants. Distrust of anyone who isn't an American (and Americans with this "world citizen" attitude).

I sound like the crazy person?!?! I'm the one looking out for AMERICAN CITIZENS.

So far as I am concerned any foreign national in the United States without the knowledge of the government is an enemy soldier not wearing proper military insignia, which makes them a spy. Under international law it's acceptable to execute captured spies.

Personally, I'd love to see those illegal aliens caught here EXECUTED immediately.

I'm not a firm believer in caring what other people think but if EVERYONE says you are racist and crazy, it's probably true. I never insult people in this forum but you truely are a hate-filled, racist mental midget. It's pathetic. I feel sorry for you.

[GSF]

Okay, that put's the burden of policing on businesses.

As a amsll business owner, I wont support that at all.

Ah Kilmer, I sense you're getting close here. As a small business owner, of course you know that the burden is already on you to establish your workers' legality. You have to document the SS cards and drivers licenses, or registered alien cards of every new hire. The process would be very similar, except you would be documenting guest worker cards and/or checking the validity of SS numbers submitted by your new hires. The amount of time, effort, and money expended by you would be very similar to what you are already doing.

[The Sisko]

I have read all your posts on this thread and I think you should seriously consider starting your own landscaping company. There are many benefits to owning a company and you could get a government loan to start it, and you could use tax deductions on many expenses, including your vehicle and equipment. This way, you can pay folks to do your old job, not break your back, and make a hell of a lot more money. You could even work with your father and your sister and get their input. There are many knowledgable folks here at extremeskins that can help you with good financial advice.

No illegal can start their own company like that. You can. The opportunity is right in front of you. Go for it!

Agreed. We have a guy that has done some work for us in the past who was in a similar situation. Now he shows up with several Mexican guys and periodically tells them what to do while he sits in the truck and reads the paper. He drives a new Hummer. I drive a '99 Nissan. You do the math.

However, what probably won't work for Extreme is that Wes had to go to school to learn horticulture and landscaping design then put the capital and effort into starting up a company. That requires a level of effort that Extreme just doesn't seem willing to expend.

As for Mass Skins Fan, I think he'd be a lot more comfortable in a compound somewhere in Idaho where the outlook and IQ's would be a lot more compatible....or maybe in Hitler's Germany.

[GSF]

I have read all your posts on this thread and I think you should seriously consider starting your own landscaping company. There are many benefits to owning a company and you could get a government loan to start it, and you could use tax deductions on many expenses, including your vehicle and equipment. This way, you can pay folks to do your old job, not break your back, and make a hell of a lot more money. You could even work with your father and your sister and get their input. There are many knowledgable folks here at extremeskins that can help you with good financial advice.

No illegal can start their own company like that. You can. The opportunity is right in front of you. Go for it!

Excellent post. Why cry about losing your $10 and hour job to an illegal, when you can hire 3 of them and start your own company. That's what capitalism and getting ahead in America is all about. This might be a shocker to Extreme, but 10 bucks an hour isn't much money. :laugh:

[Kilmer17]

Ah Kilmer, I sense you're getting close here. As a small business owner, of course you know that the burden is already on you to establish your workers' legality. You have to document the SS cards and drivers licenses, or registered alien cards of every new hire. The process would be very similar, except you would be documenting guest worker cards and/or checking the validity of SS numbers submitted by your new hires. The amount of time, effort, and money expended by you would be very similar to what you are already doing.

What about those already here, that do not come forward to get status?

Im not trying to be a contrarian (well, yes I am) because I do like this bill as a whole. But I think we all need to admit it's not a complete fix, and thinking that it is will open up even more problems.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

All I can say is WOW, what a SCARY post. How can you honestly say you are a man who believes in religion if you also believe in this stuff?

I've never claimed to be a person who believes in religion as the sole guiding factor in life. Morals & Values, yes. Religion, no. I've also commented that those Morals & Values come from more than just a religious background. Then again, my religion is not truly Christian anyway. It's some Christianity mixed in with the tenants of dark ages Sacandanavian and British paganism.

I would also venture a guess that your time can be spent worrying about things much more likely to happen in your life, seeing how you live in a town with over 12,000 people and there were 0 murders and only 2 rapes committed there.

Actually, while I lay my head down in Spencer at night, my time is much more spent in places like Worcester, Auburn and Springfield, which have considerably larger problems with violence. Probably at least in part because those cities restrict their citizens ability to carry a concealed weapon.

[MEXSKIN1]

Unless you're a migrant worker picking fruit/veggies or a landscape worker Extreme, your argument doesn't hold water. There's a good reason that the business community was against the anti illegal alien legislation-they need them.

Tell me, who here hasn't hired (either directly or through a contractor) an illegal alien to do yard work, house cleaning or other tasks that most citizens won't do? If you haven't, then you can whine about the issue. But, if like most folks you have, then you should be quiet.

I personally have no problems whatsoever with them being here. They actually come here for the express purpose of working hard and contributing to the economy with their labor unlike many citizens that are content to suckle at the public teat all their lives.

:notworthy :applause:

[The 12th Commandment]

:notworthy :applause:

Your handle rocks bro!

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I'm not a firm believer in caring what other people think but if EVERYONE says you are racist and crazy, it's probably true. I never insult people in this forum but you truely are a hate-filled, racist mental midget. It's pathetic. I feel sorry for you.

I couldn't care any less what you (or anyone else here) thinks of me. I don't edit my beliefs or comments based on what I think other people will like, respect, accept, etc...

Am I bigoted... DEFINITELY. Without any doubt. Racist is probably a little too far, but bigoted would definitely be a correct interpretation. Crazy would be a little too far as well. I just see things in Black & White. That's the world I live in. If you don't like it, fine. If you don't want to see my posts, put me on ignore.

Just don't "feel sorry" for me. Keep your pity and other emotional garbage to yourself. I don't want it, I don't need it, and you're just wasting your energy with it.

[GSF]

What about those already here, that do not come forward to get status?

Im not trying to be a contrarian (well, yes I am) because I do like this bill as a whole. But I think we all need to admit it's not a complete fix, and thinking that it is will open up even more problems.

I appreciate your contrarianism b/c it gives me the chance to answer good questions that many Americans have. Here is the answer to your question:

Once the guest worker program is in place, those already here illegally will either come forward, or they won't be able to keep their jobs or get new ones. The choice is theirs.

I readily admit that any worker program is not a complete fix, but it's the best solution to a very complicated problem.

[Kilmer17]

Actually, that just rang the bell for me.

If we have a GW program. Every CURRENT employee will have to

A- prove they are now legal under the new plan

or

B- The business can be held responsible.

I gotta think this will cause an uproar in certain industries, as well as create a huge temporary beaurocracy (which we all know will never dissappear). But probably worth it.

[GSF]

Actually, that just rang the bell for me.

If we have a GW program. Every CURRENT employee will have to

A- prove they are now legal under the new plan

or

B- The business can be held responsible.

I gotta think this will cause an uproar in certain industries, as well as create a huge temporary beaurocracy (which we all know will never dissappear). But probably worth it.

It will only cause an uproar with employers that are paying illegals cash under the table in order to avoid paying taxes. This is actually another benefit of installing a GW program. From my experience, legitimate, tax-paying employers that employ undocumented workers welcome a GW program b/c it gives them the chance to keep their workers, and they no longer have to break the law to do so.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

This is actually another benefit of installing a GW program. From my experience, legitimate, tax-paying employers that employ undocumented workers welcome a GW program b/c it gives them the chance to keep their workers, and they no longer have to break the law to do so.

And then where is the PUNISHMENT/PENALTY for having employed those illegal workers in the past?!?!?!?!

That's one of my problems with this whole amnesty thing. There's no true penalty to these people for having broken the law in the past. In fact, they're rewarded for it in some of the different propositions I've seen in this debate.

[GSF]

And then where is the PUNISHMENT/PENALTY for having employed those illegal workers in the past?!?!?!?!

That's one of my problems with this whole amnesty thing. There's no true penalty to these people for having broken the law in the past. In fact, they're rewarded for it in some of the different propositions I've seen in this debate.

I don't think there will be a penalty to employers for employing illegals in the past, but I have heard some discussion about compelling those employers to contribute to the funding of the GW program, which seems fair to me.

The punishment to the workers themselves is part of the $2000 fee. Not a severe as rounding them all up an shooting them as you propose, but a lot more fair. :laugh:

[MEXSKIN1]

Your handle rocks bro!

I'm a housekeeper department manager for a ski resort and all I know is that is realy hard to find workers, and the ones that want the job don't have their papers to work, so I end up hiring people that comes to work under a temporary visa for just 3 or 4 months at the time and at the end of that period I strugle for workers, usually citizen workers don't want to do the job or they just want to work part time so they can go skiing the rest of the day, that's why I support this bill because that would help me get the workers that I need, I'm an imigrant myself and started cleaning condos too.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I don't think there will be a penalty to employers for employing illegals in the past, but I have heard some discussion about compelling those employers to contribute to the funding of the GW program, which seems fair to me.

That's a problem in my mind. There needs to be some level of penalty/punishment for having committed the crime in the past. Contributing monies to the GW program isn't enough in my mind. I'm talking serious, punitive damages.

The punishment to the workers themselves is part of the $2000 fee. Not a severe as rounding them all up an shooting them as you propose, but a lot more fair. :laugh:

$2000 isn't enough. $20,000 maybe, but $2000 is not nearly enough.

Neither of these are sufficient penalties to ensure that there is not a repeat of this behavior in the future. We all know the employers aren't going to stop hiring the illegals and these illegals aren't going to stop coming to the US unless there is a serious penalty for doing so. But I think we all know THAT will never happen.

[skinfan133]

Without a second's hesitation or a second's worth of extra thought. So far as I'm concerned illegally entering this country should be a Capital Offense and I will always treat it as though it is.

Massachusetts has "Castle Doctrine". If I feel threatened, I don't have to retreat in my own home. If you're in my house and I don't know why you're there, I'm going to act on the idea that you're there to do me harm or to cease my personal belongings.

I've had a fair amount of training for combat shooting. I shoot several hundred rounds a month in self-defense training. Low-Light, Flashlight, unsupported hand, etc... That includes mental training for the potential of having to shoot another human being. You also have to realize that I think so little of most human beings that shooting one would be little issue for me with almost any level of provocation.

Yes it is based on hatred. Hatred of illegal immigrants. Distrust of anyone who isn't an American (and Americans with this "world citizen" attitude). It's really no more complicated than that. Legal, US Citizens are the only people who should be allowed to be employed here in the US. Pure and Simple.

i really dont have anything to say to this: you just dug your own grave, lit yourself on fire and got shoot and fell into the hole with saying that kind of stuff, as far as im concerned all your posts have lost any once of credibility that they once had. contact the green berets, they love cold heartless people like you cause, well, they're the army.

and to your castle doctrine, if you examine it further i bet there are clauses becuase basicly what your sayig is that you can shoot anyone on your property and have protection from the state. there are certaint FEDERAL limits that override the stat anyway regarding these kinds of laws. you can only shoot someone if they are armed/ or lead you to think so AND they are facing you or the inside of your house. you CANNOT shoot anyone if they are

a) facing an exit

unarmed or in an unarmed position

c) not inside the dweling on your property

you are one crazy SOB and the army calls for you, if you really have this much hatred go to the nearest recruiting station and put your gun where your mouth is. and dont you dare come anywhere near MY beloved corps. we love honorable wariors, not sick phsycotics; thats what the army is for ( to all who ge my drift)

[GSF]

That's a problem in my mind. There needs to be some level of penalty/punishment for having committed the crime in the past. Contributing monies to the GW program isn't enough in my mind. I'm talking serious, punitive damages.

$2000 isn't enough. $20,000 maybe, but $2000 is not nearly enough.

Neither of these are sufficient penalties to ensure that there is not a repeat of this behavior in the future. We all know the employers aren't going to stop hiring the illegals and these illegals aren't going to stop coming to the US unless there is a serious penalty for doing so. But I think we all know THAT will never happen.

It appears that the basic gist of the discussion is lost on you. It will be much easier to prevent immigrants from entering the country if they have a legal avenue to do so. That's the whole point of the program. :doh:

[DjTj]

Actually, that just rang the bell for me.

If we have a GW program. Every CURRENT employee will have to

A- prove they are now legal under the new plan

or

B- The business can be held responsible.

I gotta think this will cause an uproar in certain industries, as well as create a huge temporary beaurocracy (which we all know will never dissappear). But probably worth it.

I think the idea with the GW program is that there will be a form of identification more reliable than SS cards and perhaps some kind of system where you could actually verify the ID electronically with DHS.

In any case, it looks like the Senate might not actually pass this bill:

Immigration Bill Stalls in Senate

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/07/AR2006040700182.html

Republicans Insist on Amending Measure

A Senate compromise on a major overhaul of the nation's immigration laws hit a roadblock today, as the majority Republicans insisted on being allowed to amend the measure and balked at cutting off debate on it.

Reid charged that Republican opponents of the compromise had been planning to "kill it by amendment." He said that "the amendments were being offered by people who didn't want the bill."

Frist told reporters after the cloture votes that the Democratic leadership had created a "huge problem" by refusing to countenance all but three of the more than 400 amendments that had been filed on the compromise bill. He said this was "a travesty, because that ultimately brought down very good policy."

Although the Senate will now adjourn for two weeks, Frist said, "we have a very good, solid proposal on the table" that can be taken up after the break. He said the measure "does deserve debate and some amendment to it."

Oddly enough, the "compromise bill" got one fewer vote than the Democratic bill that couldn't get cloture yesterday. That can't be a good sign.