Immigration Legislation Compromise Announced

[DjTj]

Since we've been discussing this for a while in the Tailgate, at least we should take a look at what may very likely become the law of the land:

Immigration Legislation Compromise Announced

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/06/AR2006040600919.html

Compromise Struck Last Evening; Deal Has Bush Support

Some excerpts:

The compromise would give illegal immigrants who have been in the United States for more than five years a chance to legalize their status and, eventually, to become U.S. citizens if they pay a fine and meet a series of requirements. Other rules would apply to those who have been in the country less than five years but more than two years from the effective date of Jan. 7, 2004.

Under the agreement, the Senate would allow undocumented workers a path to lawful employment and citizenship if they could prove -- through work stubs, utility bills or other documents -- that they have been in the country for five years. To attain citizenship, those immigrants would have to pay a $2,000 penalty, back taxes, learn English, undergo a criminal background check and remain working for 11 years.

Those who have been here a shorter time would have to return to one of 16 designated ports of entry, such as El Paso, Tex., and apply for a new form of temporary work visa for low-skilled and unskilled workers. An additional provision would disqualify illegal immigrants who have been in the country less than two years.

There is virtual unanimity in the Senate that the immigration system is broken. Of the several immigration bills that have been drafted, all would beef up the Border Patrol with more agents and higher technology, strengthen rules against employing illegal immigrants and penalties for businesses that violate those rules and create tamper-proof identification cards to replace easily forged Social Security cards and other documents used to get jobs.

[stevenaa]

I'm torn on this issue. They are here illegally and we're not even enforcing our own law in regards to that. However, it just isn't feasible to deport everyone.

How are they going to collect 2000 and back taxes from what is supposed to be a very low skilled workforce? I'm guessing that's put in there to appease some, but all will be forgiven in the end. Essentially, they'll be very little accountability for having been here illegally. That is what is so frustrating. You have law abiding immigrants who suffer through the process and come in legally.

If they can't come up with the fine and back taxes, ship em back. Stipulate a penalty time, like 2-5 years before they can apply to come in legally. None of them should get a free ride. If we're going to make exceptions, so should they.

[Ancalagon the Black]

I think it's a good compromise. Yes, they broke the law when they came to the country, but legalizing their status has benefits for everyone. Of course, there are drawbacks, but it's a messy situation.

[Ignatius J.]

I wonder, suppose you were an illegal who worked under a fake SS#. You are probably owed quite a bit in taxes from the feds. Can you apply that to your fine?

[Extreme]

a complete joke, and rediculous that our country has come to this. why do they say everyone here loves cheap labor? why would we? cheap labor will render us all jobless at this rate. why would a company pay us $40,000 with benefits when they can get an illegal to do it for $5.15 an hour and no incentives?

[Ancalagon the Black]

a complete joke, and rediculous that our country has come to this. why do they say everyone here loves cheap labor? why would we? cheap labor will render us all jobless at this rate. why would a company pay us $40,000 with benefits when they can get an illegal to do it for $5.15 an hour and no incentives?

I take it you are in favor of labor unions and artificially inflated wages?

[Extreme]

I take it you are in favor of labor unions and artificially inflated wages?

actually no, i hate unions. are you saying you're AGAINST making more money? who here can honestly say they are overpaid? i'm just not a big fan of being passed up for a job i deserve and worked hard to get because paco crossed the rio and wants to work for pennies on the dollar

and honestly, i mean no offense at all by this, but you aren't in america, you do not know what a strain this is becoming on our society

[dfitzo53]

and honestly, i mean no offense at all by this, but you aren't in america, you do not know what a strain this is becoming on our society

I know you're new here, but if I'm not mistaken he's an American citizen.

[Extreme]

I know you're new here, but if I'm not mistaken he's an American citizen.

i know, notice i said he's not in america if he's been in australia for a decade he has no idea what a burden it's becoming

[Ignatius J.]

Extreme, If your job only requires you to be as competent as a border jumper in the first place, then you are overpaid. WAY overpaid. What is the difference between protectionism and welfare aside from jingoism and xenophobia?

[Ancalagon the Black]

Ignatius has it right. There are people willing to do the same job for less money. Doesn't supply and demand dictate that they should get the jobs first? Or is faith in market capitalism suddenly shaken because someone has a different last name or looks different or speaks differently?

I've lived in Australia for two years. Before that, I lived in California. In fact, I'm an immigrant to the United States and a naturalized citizen. So I know a bit about immigration.

[The 12th Commandment]

It's something that can get done. I'm for it, and it sounds like a compromise that doesn't please anyone. Those are usually the best kind.

I admit I'm no economist, so someone explain to me why the tax moneies not paid by the illegals aren't in some fashion paid for by the people that hire them -in the form of those employers increased profits and associated tax? I admit it's not the right way for the process to take place, but wouldn't it take a little steam out of the "we're paying for them" arguments.

[ChocolateCitySkin]

I was really worried that our Gov't was going to do some stupid like throw money at border security and deport the illegals. Thank god there are few rational people out there.

[Extreme]

Ignatius has it right. There are people willing to do the same job for less money. Doesn't supply and demand dictate that they should get the jobs first? Or is faith in market capitalism suddenly shaken because someone has a different last name or looks different or speaks differently?

I've lived in Australia for two years. Before that, I lived in California. In fact, I'm an immigrant to the United States and a naturalized citizen. So I know a bit about immigration.

i'm curious as to why californians are the overwhelming supporters of this? you will lose more jobs than anybody. i'm not against them coming here and working at all. i'm against them coming hre illegally and doing it, because there will be a flood, and we'll all be out of work in short order unless we have executive or ownership positions. all this legislation will do is bring more illegals in, let them snag a job, and reward them for breaking the law. it's rediculous, and so is anyone in favor of it. what happened to earning your way? why is it we should have to suffer for things we've worked so hard to achieve? hell, why have any laws at all? do away with everything. the cost of living will never decrease, it will only go up, so remember that when your job is taken by someone who shouldn't be here in the first place, or when you have to get on welfare because when you go on a new job search, everyone only pays minimum wage.

[Ancalagon the Black]

A couple of things.

First of all, remember that the economy is not a zero-sum game. There isn't a fixed amount of wealth, and there aren't a fixed amount of jobs. If there were, people would just be getting poorer and more and more unemployed as the population increases, and we've seen the opposite happen.

Second, the labor market is not closed. If you increase the labor supply by adding to the total pool of humans (putting a downward pressure on wages in the short term), you also increase the demand for consumption (because you have more people). The increased demand necessitates increased production, necessitating more labor and creating more jobs.

[Ignatius J.]

I admit I'm no economist, so someone explain to me why the tax moneies not paid by the illegals aren't in some fashion paid for by the people that hire them -in the form of those employers increased profits and associated tax? I admit it's not the right way for the process to take place, but wouldn't it take a little steam out of the "we're paying for them" arguments.

a couple of problems. The ones who didn't pay taxes must have been paid in cash so there is almost no record of how much money we're talking about here.

Then there are the illegals who actually have been overpaying taxes because they never filed tax returns.

The system is just horribly broken. Neither of the above should have ever happened. We should have simply had a station set up for naturalization at the border of mexico so people could actually immigrate here legally, after passing background checks and disease testing and all sorts of fun stuff. But that's a pipe dream I guess....

[The 12th Commandment]

i'm curious as to why californians are the overwhelming supporters of this? you will lose more jobs than anybody. i'm not against them coming here and working at all. i'm against them coming hre illegally and doing it, because there will be a flood, and we'll all be out of work in short order unless we have executive or ownership positions. all this legislation will do is bring more illegals in, let them snag a job, and reward them for breaking the law. it's rediculous, and so is anyone in favor of it. what happened to earning your way? why is it we should have to suffer for things we've worked so hard to achieve? hell, why have any laws at all? do away with everything. the cost of living will never decrease, it will only go up, so remember that when your job is taken by someone who shouldn't be here in the first place, or when you have to get on welfare because when you go on a new job search, everyone only pays minimum wage.

It's illegal what they did. No one can argue with that. But is the degree of their crime sufficient to warrant such harsh consideration? Our government has in place a woefully inadequate immigration process. And it's woeful for both sides of the party. Otherwise, they wouldn't cross and we wouldn't hire. You should level some of your blame for the problem on that as well.

[The Sisko]

Unless you're a migrant worker picking fruit/veggies or a landscape worker Extreme, your argument doesn't hold water. There's a good reason that the business community was against the anti illegal alien legislation-they need them.

Tell me, who here hasn't hired (either directly or through a contractor) an illegal alien to do yard work, house cleaning or other tasks that most citizens won't do? If you haven't, then you can whine about the issue. But, if like most folks you have, then you should be quiet.

I personally have no problems whatsoever with them being here. They actually come here for the express purpose of working hard and contributing to the economy with their labor unlike many citizens that are content to suckle at the public teat all their lives.

[The 12th Commandment]

a couple of problems. The ones who didn't pay taxes must have been paid in cash so there is almost no record of how much money we're talking about here.

Then there are the illegals who actually have been overpaying taxes because they never filed tax returns.

The system is just horribly broken. Neither of the above should have ever happened. We should have simply had a station set up for naturalization at the border of mexico so people could actually immigrate here legally, after passing background checks and disease testing and all sorts of fun stuff. But that's a pipe dream I guess....

I hadn't considered the cash option, and I am certain it's pretty common, so props there. But even farmers are hesitant to pay too much in expenses they can't deduct. It must speak to the amount of difference in expenses between pay for illegals and pay for legal workers combined with the loss of an expense on your taxes.

And the improved immigration processing is going to happen. Just time.

[Extreme]

Unless you're a migrant worker picking fruit/veggies or a landscape worker Extreme, your argument doesn't hold water. There's a good reason that the business community was against the anti illegal alien legislation-they need them.

Tell me, who here hasn't hired (either directly or through a contractor) an illegal alien to do yard work, house cleaning or other tasks that most citizens won't do? If you haven't, then you can whine about the issue. But, if like most folks you have, then you should be quiet.

I personally have no problems whatsoever with them being here. They actually come here for the express purpose of working hard and contributing to the economy with their labor unlike many citizens that are content to suckle at the public teat all their lives.

not true....i was a landscaper for 10 years, and me, my father, and all our friends in the industry making $10+/hr were run out by the mass hirings by all companies in the area of mexicans working for minimum wage. if you haven't ever done landscaping, don't even try to tell me it isn't worth $10 an hour. you break your back all day, all week, and don't make enough money to enjoy anything, which you couldn't anyway because you spend all your time off recovering and sleeping. i have already been nailed by this so it is a personal issue for me. i now have 2 kids, a wife, a car, and a small apartment, and i now only make $8 an hour, in a completely different industry, factory work, which unfortunately is already quickly becoming more over run. what is it you do for a living? with that argument you present, you probably have a job that is in no danger whatsoever, but like most americans, i live in the real world. the working class. and to anyone who thinks mexicans can only pick fruit, you need to do a little more research. they will do anything you do. at 10% of the wages.

and the reason the business class is in favor, is because those cheap **** fatcats make more money on the deal, plain and simple, it has nothing to do with needing them.

[PokerPacker]

not true....i was a landscaper for 10 years, and me, my father, and all our friends in the industry making $10+/hr were run out by the mass hirings by all companies in the area of mexicans working for minimum wage. if you haven't ever done landscaping, don't even try to tell me it isn't worth $10 an hour. you break your back all day, all week, and don't make enough money to enjoy anything, which you couldn't anyway because you spend all your time off recovering and sleeping. i have already been nailed by this so it is a personal issue for me. i now have 2 kids, a wife, a car, and a small apartment, and i now only make $8 an hour, in a completely different industry, factory work, which unfortunately is already quickly becoming more over run. what is it you do for a living? with that argument you present, you probably have a job that is in no danger whatsoever, but like most americans, i live in the real world. the working class. and to anyone who thinks mexicans can only pick fruit, you need to do a little more research. they will do anything you do. at 10% of the wages.

and the reason the business class is in favor, is because those cheap **** fatcats make more money on the deal, plain and simple, it has nothing to do with needing them.

you might want to consider a change in career. in my first job, (casheer) i was paid $7 an hour, except for sundays and holidays i got $10.50. that's hardly backbreaking work. if you only get $8 an hour, you should really find a new job.

[ChocolateCitySkin]

Extreme how many jobs have you or anyone within 6 degrees of you lost to an illegal immigrant?

[Extreme]

Extreme how many jobs have you or anyone within 6 degrees of you lost to an illegal immigrant?

let's count, shall we? me and my dad- landscaping

my sister- mexican restaurant

my neighbor - landscaping

that's 4 for me personally.....how do i know they were illegal? they were all eventually busted and deported. my sis and neighbors got their jobs back....me and my dad refused.....who placed the call to INS??? me of course and i'll keep on doing it if i have to.

[Ancalagon the Black]

if you haven't ever done landscaping, don't even try to tell me it isn't worth $10 an hour. you break your back all day, all week, and don't make enough money to enjoy anything, which you couldn't anyway because you spend all your time off recovering and sleeping.

I'm really confused now. You claim to be a Republican and conservative, yet you've put forth a completely Marxist philosophy--people should be paid according to some external conception of what their labor is worth, rather than letting the market dictate what jobs are worth what.

Fish gutters in India make less than 10 cents an hour, and their labor is truly backbreaking. I know IT professionals that work about five hours a day and make about $250 an hour. Is this unfair? Should we introduce regulations to correct this injustice?

[The Sisko]

Look, workers in other industries have faced this before and are facing it now. What about all the customer service reps/IT types that have lost jobs because their job was outsourced? Sorry dude but there's no way around it-the labor pool is now global. Moreover, we're in the midst of a changeover from an industrial based economy to one based on service businesses.

You asked what type of work I do. I suck snot for a living. That is, I'm a respiratory therapist. Yes, I do make more than you do but I'm not a fat cat by any stretch of the imagination. And, let's not forget that I had to learn some technical skills that you didn't, and have to deal with the very real prospect every day of getting HIV, Hepatitis, TB or any of a number of other wonderful diseases I could name, all the while being b!tched at by Doctors that come in and ask me how the patient is doing so they can write their progress note and get paid a few hundred dollars for their 10 minute "visit".

To make matters worse, once I moved down to the Atlanta area I discovered that I had the good fortune to have moved to the one area in the country that is inundated with people in my profession. That means we don't get raises while the nurses around us do and we have to put up with all kinds of :pooh: because there just aren't many openings in the area.

My answer to all this? They need to shut down all the RT programs in the area churning out all those extra therapists we don't need that are driving down the wages .....NOT!! Instead, I went back to school to do something else that will hopefully allow me to earn more $$ with less risk and more enjoyment. I suggest you do the same.