Immigration Legislation Compromise Announced

[no1fanofno21]

how is the US supposed to figure out how long the illegals have been here, all of them are gonna say 5 years or 2 years, theres no way to find out?

[Kilmer17]

Currently we don't punish companies for hiring illegals. A key part of making the guest worker program successful is changing that. Give the illegals the chance to become legal workers, strongly punish companies that continue to hire illegals. Are you with me?

I absolutely agree.

Now answer my what if?

[GSF]

I absolutely guarantee you that what you say will never happen. You sound like a crazy person.

Wonderful way to completely ignore or avoid the REAL ISSUE, which is ILLEGAL ALIENS being in the United States to begin with.

Personally, I'd love to see those illegal aliens caught here EXECUTED immediately. Any business caught employing them should be shut down immediately and permanently. But that will never happen, because it might actually be a real answer to the problem.

Of course it won't happen. It would be way too effective, too intelligent, and there are no nice little loopholes for people to try and shimmy through.

I sound like the crazy person?!?! I'm the one looking out for AMERICAN CITIZENS. It's the other folks who are advocating citizenship and rights for people committing crimes that I believe are CRAZY!!!!

Sure, kill 'em all. You don't sound crazy at all.

[skinfan133]

I am 100% serious when I say these things. So far as I am concerned any foreign national in the United States without the knowledge of the government is an enemy soldier not wearing proper military insignia, which makes them a spy. Under international law it's acceptable to execute captured spies.

Shutting down businesses who employ illegal aliens will give those businesses a reason to actually ensure that their employees are AMERICAN CITIZENS. It will give tens of thousands of those lazy-ass sacks of crap on welfare and unemployment something to do as well.

thats a load of bull and you know it, spies are those who gather inteligence for another country, these guys are not that. and they certantly arent soilders (but alot do know how to use guns, ive seen more metal in guatemala than at quantico alone.). and if you shut down a business how do they get a chance to employ only citizens? i belive where you are comming from is correct- ilegals shouldnt be employed, but it ist feasable, so many businesses that form the backbone to our economy employ at least a few ilegals, f we shut them down our economy would be broken down. plus it would undermine an important aspect of capitalism, competition. if businesses could eliminate each other by just saying their competition is employing ilegals, that ideology of reporting to the government and the government shuting down you competition is pure stalinism. i doubt even you are an advocate for stalinism, again please use your head before you spout unreasonable hatred.

[The 12th Commandment]

Of course it won't happen. It would be way too effective, too intelligent, and there are no nice little loopholes for people to try and shimmy through.

I sound like the crazy person?!?! I'm the one looking out for AMERICAN CITIZENS. It's the other folks who are advocating citizenship and rights for people committing crimes that I believe are CRAZY!!!!

I tried, but couldn't find the specific law they break when they cross illegaly. I would like to have this argument, but without that citation it's meaningless. How does it compare to other crimes? Personally, I don't find it all that offensive. I find the lack of accountability in the government for their part in the problem of much more concern.

[skinfan133]

how is the US supposed to figure out how long the illegals have been here, all of them are gonna say 5 years or 2 years, theres no way to find out?

gas bills, work stubs, ect. the same things you use at the DMV when you aply for a license.

[GSF]

I absolutely agree.

Now answer my what if?

I'm sorry Kilmer, but I guess I didn't understand your question. All of the immigration reform/guest worker proposals I have seen include strictly enforcing the hiring of documented workers only by employers, and strongly punishing employers that continue to hire illegals. They know the program won't work without this.

If you are asking what would happen if we started a guest worker program, but didn't punish employers for continuing to hire illegals, I would answer that the program would be a failure, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

[Kilmer17]

Let me start over.

What I am saying is that illegals currently are working for companies that THINK they are legal.

Going forward, would we punish the companies for this practice. And if not, that will be the firt loophole exploited.

[GSF]

how is the US supposed to figure out how long the illegals have been here, all of them are gonna say 5 years or 2 years, theres no way to find out?

We already know how long most of them have been here b/c of their tax records. The rest could demonstrate their time here through paycheck stubs, bills ect.

[The 12th Commandment]

Let me start over.

What I am saying is that illegals currently are working for companies that THINK they are legal.

Going forward, would we punish the companies for this practice. And if not, that will be the firt loophole exploited.

Change the method for proving their status to the employer. Change the paperwork to a type that is not so easy to counterfeit. Why does that seem so hard to grasp? Geez, we have technology to wipe your ass. We can do this.

[Kilmer17]

Just how big of beaurocracy are we creating here?

[GSF]

Change the method for proving their status to the employer. Change the paperwork to a type that is not so easy to counterfeit. Why does that seem so hard to grasp? Geez, we have technology to wipe your ass. We can do this.

I agree with what you're saying, but it's actually even easier than that. An employer can check the status of an employee with one phone call to check whether or not his SS number is a match. It's very simple.

[The 12th Commandment]

Just how big of bureaucracy are we creating here?

Bureaucracy vs. 12 million illegals. Which is a bigger problem? I will choose a little bureaucracy thanks.

[The 12th Commandment]

I agree with what you're saying, but it's actually even easier than that. An employer can check the status of an employee with one phone call to check whether or not his SS number is a match. It's very simple.

Even better. I don't claim to have all the answers, but common sense seems to be less common than it used to be. :doh:

[Mass_SkinsFan]

thats a load of bull and you know it, spies are those who gather inteligence for another country, these guys are not that. and they certantly arent soilders (but alot do know how to use guns, ive seen more metal in guatemala than at quantico alone.).

Personally, I'd just have them shot on what I call "General Principles"... that being the theory that they're doing something wrong (regardless of any specific laws) and deserve to be punished for it. Similar to the concept that if I'm walking through my house and come upon you and I don't believe you should be there, you're gonna get shot. I'll deal with whether you're a crook or a repair man after the fact.

and if you shut down a business how do they get a chance to employ only citizens? i belive where you are comming from is correct- ilegals shouldnt be employed, but it ist feasable, so many businesses that form the backbone to our economy employ at least a few ilegals, f we shut them down our economy would be broken down. plus it would undermine an important aspect of capitalism, competition. if businesses could eliminate each other by just saying their competition is employing ilegals, that ideology of reporting to the government and the government shuting down you competition is pure stalinism. i doubt even you are an advocate for stalinism, again please use your head before you spout unreasonable hatred.

The business had the opportunity (and legal requirement) to hire American Citizens previously. This would just add some actual teeth/punishment to the equation. We've got plenty of able-bodied deadbeats here in the US who can be shipped around the country as needed to do the work that these illegals are doing. They can accept the job or stop accepting the social welfare money they're stealing from those of us who work. If a company isn't employing illegal aliens there's no need to worry. I'm for a system that would REQUIRE PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP to get a job in this country. Period.

[GSF]

Let me start over.

What I am saying is that illegals currently are working for companies that THINK they are legal.

Going forward, would we punish the companies for this practice. And if not, that will be the firt loophole exploited.

Thanks for starting over, but I must be really dense b/c I thought I already answered that. Yes, we would punish companies for continuing to employ illegals if there was a guest worker program in place. If we didn't, the guest worker program wouldn't work.

[skinfan133]

Just how big of beaurocracy are we creating here?

good point, im a strong advocate for smaller government, take THAT bush!

[Kilmer17]

Okay, that put's the burden of policing on businesses.

As a amsll business owner, I wont support that at all.

[The 12th Commandment]

Okay, that put's the burden of policing on businesses.

As a amsll business owner, I wont support that at all.

You really should quote who you are replying to. Anyway, the burden is already on small businesses. The problem is with the people who have fake documentation. Not the fault of the businesses. The fault of the government.

[GSF]

Personally, I'd just have them shot on what I call "General Principles"... that being the theory that they're doing something wrong (regardless of any specific laws) and deserve to be punished for it. Similar to the concept that if I'm walking through my house and come upon you and I don't believe you should be there, you're gonna get shot. I'll deal with whether you're a crook or a repair man after the fact.

The business had the opportunity (and legal requirement) to hire American Citizens previously. This would just add some actual teeth/punishment to the equation. We've got plenty of able-bodied deadbeats here in the US who can be shipped around the country as needed to do the work that these illegals are doing. They can accept the job or stop accepting the social welfare money they're stealing from those of us who work. If a company isn't employing illegal aliens there's no need to worry. I'm for a system that would REQUIRE PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP to get a job in this country. Period.

It's amazing to me the level of rediculousness some people will go to to just to avoid admitting they don't know what the hell they are talking about. :doh:

[skinfan133]

Personally, I'd just have them shot on what I call "General Principles"... that being the theory that they're doing something wrong (regardless of any specific laws) and deserve to be punished for it. Similar to the concept that if I'm walking through my house and come upon you and I don't believe you should be there, you're gonna get shot. I'll deal with whether you're a crook or a repair man after the fact.

and thats what seperates you from me. you would kil these guys for a non-capital ofense?

oh and a prosecutor would have a field day if you shot someone in your home as self defense, there are federal and state laws that prohibit you from shooting people in your own home under certaint conditions favorable to the guy inside your house. plus how could you live with yourself if you shot an inocent man? have you ever killed someone? its not as easy to take the life of another human being as you make it out to be. i guarentee you would think twice if i handed you a gun and told you to shoot some random guy on the street.

and everything you are saying about the economy is founded on absolute hatred, othing more, and to reiterate, i agree that only citizens and registered imigrants should get jobs, but its alot more complicated than that.

[skinfan133]

It's amazing to me the level of rediculousness some people will go to to just to avoid admitting they don't know what the hell they are talking about. :doh:

and this guy has fit that mold in every discusion hes been in. hes even acused ME of being a liberal in some threads:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Prosperity]

wow this seems like a decent bill, I am impressed

[Kilmer17]

wow this seems like a decent bill, I am impressed

Well then I definitely oppose it.

Seriously, IF IF IF it gets passed, it will be the best we could hope to do.

Im not saying it's great, or even will solve the problem, but it does show good effort and will at least begin to address the problem.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

and thats what seperates you from me. you would kil these guys for a non-capital ofense?.

Without a second's hesitation or a second's worth of extra thought. So far as I'm concerned illegally entering this country should be a Capital Offense and I will always treat it as though it is.

oh and a prosecutor would have a field day if you shot someone in your home as self defense, there are federal and state laws that prohibit you from shooting people in your own home under certaint conditions favorable to the guy inside your house. plus how could you live with yourself if you shot an inocent man? have you ever killed someone? its not as easy to take the life of another human being as you make it out to be. i guarentee you would think twice if i handed you a gun and told you to shoot some random guy on the street.

Massachusetts has "Castle Doctrine". If I feel threatened, I don't have to retreat in my own home. If you're in my house and I don't know why you're there, I'm going to act on the idea that you're there to do me harm or to cease my personal belongings.

I've had a fair amount of training for combat shooting. I shoot several hundred rounds a month in self-defense training. Low-Light, Flashlight, unsupported hand, etc... That includes mental training for the potential of having to shoot another human being. You also have to realize that I think so little of most human beings that shooting one would be little issue for me with almost any level of provocation.

and everything you are saying about the economy is founded on absolute hatred, nothing more, and to reiterate, i agree that only citizens and registered imigrants should get jobs, but its alot more complicated than that.

Yes it is based on hatred. Hatred of illegal immigrants. Distrust of anyone who isn't an American (and Americans with this "world citizen" attitude). It's really no more complicated than that. Legal, US Citizens are the only people who should be allowed to be employed here in the US. Pure and Simple.