A Solution in the war between the Newbies and the Toadies.

[G-Prime]

Just curious here: what are you adding when you post something like the above? Do you think it improves the thread or makes you more of a Redskins fan?

What's your mindset when you post something like this?

here here.

[G-Prime]

The day this board becomes segregated is the day I'd never return. Having seperate forums for users based on what other people think about them is discrimination at it's worst.

[DCsportsfan53]

No offense, but I really don't see how this is and issue of right and wrong opinion. It isn't in point of fact. It's an issue of board management. The arguments over whether the coaching staff knows what they are doing or not and all of the associated stuff is personal issue. The problem of exceptionally high amounts of similar posts, which the original poster was referring to before the thread was somewhat hijacked, is not an opinion issue so much as it is an issue about adapting the community to new challenges.

Stevenaa and several others have mentioned their opinion that this is the way the board has always worked and it should not be changed. I would have to disagree. I think the board could continue to "work" that way, but that's no reason to look into making it work better for all involved. Things are changing with all of the new members and it's only going to get worse. Things will never be like they used to be in the grand ond days. We need to look for ways to update the community and make it better for all involved.

Very well said. It cerainly has become more difficult to find what you're looking for in the stadium but I don't think making an elite club is necessary. There are plenty of vets out there making duplicate threads as well as newbies just as there are newbies who do it right and positively contribute to discussions. I think if we can do a better job hounding people as a community for starting pointless threads, we'll be alright.

[DCsportsfan53]

If the n00b's and the toadies can't come to an agreement on a revised knowledge-sharing plan, does that mean that 2007 becomes an uncapped thread year?

:laugh: lol, see, this post is a good example of how one can not really add to the discussion but still make a valuable post. One of the things I love the most about this site is the off-color comical remarks that are always showing up. We just need to do a better job of getting the thread starting under control because that's what makes it difficult and painful to navigate this site at times.

[Hail_Skinz]

In a word? No. It's simple, follow the guidelines and all is well. If not, enjoy a vacation whether it be temporary or permanent. But, I will say this, just because one poster has 20,000+ posts doesn't mean they are any more knowledgeable a 'skins than a poster with 200 posts. There has been too much harsh criticism on this board recently when it comes to the new posters. Some justified, others, not so much. Remember we all started out with 0 posts. :2cents:

I agree with this completely. Furthermore, who cares who is more knowledgeable than who on a particular subject -- this is an internet messageboard...not an on-line primadonna community (or is it?). The fact of the matter is that there are many people on ES that aren't extremely knowledgeable but have the capacity to contribute well thought out and sensible posts.

The issue really is the AMOUNT of posts on the SAME topic. Perhpas the mods should enforce probabationary measures for users who start 3 or more threads that have already been started. It is very easy to use the Search Functionality and if a particular user is unable to follow these very simple rules...they either get put on probabation or get the boot.

One thread to rule them all...One thread to find them...One thread to bring them all...and in the darkenss bind them. ONE thread on ONE topic...whether knowledgeable or not...whether ranting...whether raving...whether complaining...whether whatever. It makes for an interesting and unique experience.

[iheartskins]

A lot of the older posters have disappeared/cut back their posting due to the influx of noobs... the old, measured tenor of the forum is totally and utterly gone, but that's the price that's paid by the additional exposure coming from the sale of the site to the team.

It's a different site. For some, that's a good thing, for others... not so much.

And therein is the issue--and to which constituency the site should be beholden. Not an easy answer in the least. On one hand there's the people that, for the most part, made the site so great and what brought so many of us here. On the other is that which facilitated or made possible the additional access.

[FullbackIsKey]

The day this board becomes segregated is the day I'd never return. Having seperate forums for users based on what other people think about them is discrimination at it's worst.

agreed.

And It seems to me that the only reason people post a new thread about a common topic(apparently everybody here over the age of 35's biggest pet peeve) is because they find that what they want to say doesn't fit into the discussion of any of the current threads, and furtermore, feel what they have to say is important enough that it shouldn't get buried in another thread where most people will skim over it and go to the next post. They want people to respnd to what they have to say. And when your post is mixed in with 200 other posts, and it doesn't exactly fit that thread, it gets ignored. So if you want people to stop posting random threads that you feel you are too good yto have to read, then reply to more posters posts in discussions. Its like the people on this board are not actually listening to each other, but reather just waiting for their turn to talk, like a bad conversationalist.

I would opine that we spend less time talking about posting and just post. When somebody's being an idiot, you ignore them, just like in real life. You don't need to make up rules to curb the idiots. That's like putting speed bumps in your neighborhood. Sure, the kids(idiots, and the people who can't ignore them) may be a little bit safer, but every time you drive down your street, the speed bumps annoy the crap out of you, and they mess with your car's handling.

[G-Prime]

What really this entire discussion is about is the newbies feel oppressed by the "Toadies". I don't consider myself a vet or a newbie so guess I'm in the middle. Essentially the Vets (some of them) carry themselves like somehow they are better fans then the newbs just because they're post count exceed 5000. There is no one that can say some of them don't act like that. On the other hand a lot of the newbs act as such.. Newbish.

Newbs want to be heard, they're new and they want to feel things out. Not exactly a crime. Vets want their display of dominance witnessed and are quick to strike down people who break their master's rules.

So you have Joe Blow user that comes on and posts for the first. Is immediately jumped on with "Use the search function jeez!" or whatever instead of "Hey man good points, do us a favor next time and check out the search functions" or something at least approaching civil.

[GoSkins561]

People really do have a strong need to feel a little better than everyone else, don't they?

Ding Ding Ding!!!!! From what I can see and occasionally I throw in my "could'nt you find a thread to post this message in, instead of starting a new one" just for kicks.

[DCsportsfan53]

I likie the idea someone had about designated news posters. Too often a news story comes out and everyone posts it at once and you have the same discussion going on in 5 different threads. Some of it is neglegence but a lot is people starting threads at the same time. That part is difficult to control.

Also, maybe we need to stop posting articles from different sources on the same topic as different threads. For example, there doesn't need to be different threads for WP: lavar gone, WT: lavar gone, ESPN: lavar gone, ect. Those are the reasons I would think designating people or placing limits on articles posted would be a good idea. I don't bother posting them because I know they are either already there or will be by the time I hit submit but if everyone did that, they'd never get posted. Maybe we could restrict posting articles to breaking news and then start a designated thread in the Stadium based on the content of all the articles related to a particular situation?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

What really this entire discussion is about is the newbies feel oppressed by the "Toadies". I don't consider myself a vet or a newbie so guess I'm in the middle. Essentially the Vets (some of them) carry themselves like somehow they are better fans then the newbs just because they're post count exceed 5000. There is no one that can say some of them don't act like that. On the other hand a lot of the newbs act as such.. Newbish.

Newbs want to be heard, they're new and they want to feel things out. Not exactly a crime. Vets want their display of dominance witnessed and are quick to strike down people who break their master's rules.

So you have Joe Blow user that comes on and posts for the first. Is immediately jumped on with "Use the search function jeez!" or whatever instead of "Hey man good points, do us a favor next time and check out the search functions" or something at least approaching civil.

I think that is how we got so far off-topic.

I think it is pretty evident that we have too many repeat topics, though that has never really bothered me. But there is also a culture of "old-timers - " for a lack of a better word - who want control of the board and for their opinions to carry more weight.

Unless there is a serious bandwith issue, I don't really see the huge problem in repetitive threads. You either deal with long threads that go off topic. Or short, repetitive posts. It's a matter of pick your poison and it's the same problem faced by every forum for every subject on the Internet.

[DCsportsfan53]

What really this entire discussion is about is the newbies feel oppressed by the "Toadies". I don't consider myself a vet or a newbie so guess I'm in the middle. Essentially the Vets (some of them) carry themselves like somehow they are better fans then the newbs just because they're post count exceed 5000. There is no one that can say some of them don't act like that. On the other hand a lot of the newbs act as such.. Newbish.

Newbs want to be heard, they're new and they want to feel things out. Not exactly a crime. Vets want their display of dominance witnessed and are quick to strike down people who break their master's rules.

So you have Joe Blow user that comes on and posts for the first. Is immediately jumped on with "Use the search function jeez!" or whatever instead of "Hey man good points, do us a favor next time and check out the search functions" or something at least approaching civil.

I agree, when I first started reading this site I thought "damn, what a bunch of Nazis. They kill each other for any kind of silly post or minor infraction of the stupid rules." Thankfully, I waited a few months to start posting and after a while it began to sink in that the rules are there for a reason (it took a while, I'm not big on authority or rules ). I think the vets get understandably frustrated by the ridiculous posts and the newbs think jesus, get over yourself, it's just a website. Both sides have a point, maybe we all just need to be a little more patient. Can't we all just get along!!!

[iheartskins]

What really this entire discussion is about is the newbies feel oppressed by the "Toadies". I don't consider myself a vet or a newbie so guess I'm in the middle. Essentially the Vets (some of them) carry themselves like somehow they are better fans then the newbs just because they're post count exceed 5000. There is no one that can say some of them don't act like that. On the other hand a lot of the newbs act as such.. Newbish.

Newbs want to be heard, they're new and they want to feel things out. Not exactly a crime. Vets want their display of dominance witnessed and are quick to strike down people who break their master's rules.

So you have Joe Blow user that comes on and posts for the first. Is immediately jumped on with "Use the search function jeez!" or whatever instead of "Hey man good points, do us a favor next time and check out the search functions" or something at least approaching civil.

I think you hit on some of the issues, but the bigger issue is that many of the new users are introduced into a forum where most people don't engage in discussion or debate but either add spammy replies and/or yell at the initial poster. This is done by both relative noobs and by veteran posters. The issue isn't that noobs aren't welcomed, because they are, it's just requested that they (and all of the veterans) follow the rules (which they agreed to) when they earn their posting privileges.

What we want to return the Stadium to is a place where everyone posts valuable contributionsm, and that everyone who is a member realize that we don't offer a place where you can just say whatever you want to say whenever you want to say it--but that we as the Moderator/Administrators and you (as all of the ES members) expect people to contribute when they have something to add that actually adds to the discussion/debate/etc.

Again, ES is not a place for each member to say as much about anything and everything they want. It's for people to engage in intelligent discussion that relevant and as Art says above, topical and not redundant. This may mean that most members aren't going to have a lot of posts about the Team because their knowledge isn't as great as some other members--and I think this is a great difficulty for a lot of people.

What's hard is that everyone wants to be "known" in the community which is at great odds with the above--because not everyone who is a member is going to know anything or be able to add substantively. Myself included as many members on this Board know far, far more about football and the 'Skins than I do--and I contribute accordingly in this Forum. Ultimately, we are asking members to do the same thing on a certain level and to adopt the "think first, post second" mindset so that what they do add makes the forum better.

This may sound a little too "All for One and One for All"-ish to some of you, but I guarantee if we move back in that direction, it'll be the best for all of us.

[G-Prime]

Well then if this board is going to be nazi-ish then lets not hold any punches.. Someone breaks the rule, newb or vet they should be suspended for a day or two and reminded to read the rules.. People can't be held on two different standards.. A vet comes in and trashes a newbie disrespectfully then that vet should go on a short vacation.

[G-Prime]

iheartskins makes me feel warm in the pants

[DCsportsfan53]

iheartskins makes me feel warm in the pants

:laugh: Are you sure you didn't just pee yourself?

[RIDETHEWALRUS]

Unless there is a serious bandwith issue' date=' I don't really see the huge problem in repetitive threads. You either deal with long threads that go off topic. Or short, repetitive posts. It's a matter of pick your poison and it's the same problem faced by every forum for every subject on the Internet.[/quote']

There is a huge problem with repetitive threads and posts that either call the thread starter, the thread topic, and/or a general idea "stupid." I will admit that I have put out some bad posts, but generally speaking I don't write if I do not believe my comments are constructive or worth reading.

Many people use this board as an information tool. Whether a person doesn't have the time to search through 1000 threads and countless posts or just plain doesn't want to, they have to be respected.

As the number of 1-liner posts increases the value of this site as a learning tool diminishes.

The quality of debate is also reduced greatly as opinions are asserted without backing to those opinions. As Skins fans we suffer a great deal of cognitive dissonance. When we are presented facts that do not correspond with our pre-concieved notions of the Redskins we dismiss them as being BS instead of honoring them and analyzing their validity.

Overall I feel that this is one of the best message boards out there, but I would agree 100 % with a locker room, though I would not implement it the way that you suggest.

For my locker room everyone initially would be able to post, but the rules would be stricter for both the creation of new threads as well as being more stringent on repetitiveness and personal attacks. Suspensions would then become more frequent in this particular room.

I don't think this would lead to 2 types of debate; the Stadium filled with opinions and rants, the Locker Room with intelligent discussion. What I suspect would occur is that the locker room would become a much better learning tool. Documentation and facts backing up arguments would be essential in the locker room. In the stadium the rules would still apply, but for those of us who don't want to do countless digging to come up with a "professional" argument but still know what we are talking about would be free to roam.

:2cents:

Edit: I would also remove the post counts. It seems some people feel that the more posts they have the better the member they are. It would facilitate a little more respect and prevent the dismissal of some very sound posts based solely on a persons prior contributions (and age).

Those who have been here a while know who is a good poster and know around how long a person has been contributing to the site (I am not in this group).

[Mooka]

bad idea, few points

1. There are thousands of active members on this site. How long would it take to evaluate and vote on who gets admittance to this forum?

2. There are many members that have been around for years and don't post very often. How would these people be evaluated? What about the newer members with inside information like Dinello or a member like Andyman?

3. Sometimes you need different opinions and POVs; like a more blunt opinion. Perhaps some that aren't well thought out or very football smart. This is one of the problems you guys are talking about, but if all 50k members could analyze every subject as well as Bulldog, it would be rediculous and boring. e.g. Sometimes mixed in with the analysis the discussion needs a, "Clemons made 330pnd Robert Gallery his little *****, start the guy..." or a "Walt was owned by Eric Parker, what good is he..."

Not really saying I know the answer, but I don't think segregating us is it. I think reminding everyone that they should treat this board as if they were actually physically speaking to someone would help. Also, if someone brings up a lame/retarded POV, don't just tell him how retarded it is and analyze everything wrong with it, throw in some questions. (discussion!)

edit- none of this has to do with dummies that refuse to even read the rules and clutter the board with nonsense threads. Just ban those guys....

[G-Prime]

bad idea, few points

1. There are thousands of active members on this site. How long would it take to evaluate and vote on who gets admittance to this forum?

Why should any one be denied admittance unless all they post is gibberish, racial slurs, or other offensive material. Why should some be deemed worthy and others be deemed unacceptable by a panel of people who's opinion in the real world really doesn't mean a whole lot.

Most importantly, why is one Redskin fan better than another?

[Skinman]

It's a bad idea for a very simple reason.

This isn't the war of the roses. It's not a battle between vets and newbies. Many newbies are highly quality posters. Many vets aren't exactly perfect -- obvious exception, me. The point is not to essentially let one forum become a rant forum and another forum be designed for intelligent discussion.

We want everyone to understand this is an intelligent community. It doesn't require your constant breathlessness every time there's a HINT of news. Post news and tidbits. Put a thoughtful opinion in such threads. Offer a unique, interesting analysis for others to post on.

Make it mildly readable. Somewhat topical. Accurate.

These are simple, basic community standards that do not require a second forum to achieve. Simply it requires self-control and an understanding that not everything you have to say has to be said. You being the universal you.

Even I have slowed down content posting for a spell to watch some things develop because even my excellent brains aren't always needed. If I can hold myself back, others with far more feeble minds can too .

"Simply it requires self-control and an understanding that not everything you have to say has to be said." = comming from a guy that has over 22,000 posts :applause: ! :laugh:

KILL NEWBIES~

Im still waiting for my "oldschool" extremeskins chaotic clown! please update my camp fodder w/that please!

[MRMADD]

You don't have to agree with anything I say. But, you DOOOOOOOOOO have to agree with reality and fact.

That's problematic, Art, because you often seem to think that any opinion of yours is "reality" and anything printed in the paper is "fact". It ain't necessarily so.

For instance, yesterday Derek Smith resigned with the 49ers. He and his agent were quoted saying how much he wanted to be a 49er and be part of the rebuilding. That, of course, is total crap. He doesn't dare test the free agent waters in this uncertain year, especially with a glut of LBs on the market, so he took what he could get.

There are plenty of example with the Skins. Remember when everyone on the team was raving about Taylor Jacobs? How he's the best receiver on the team? Who still believes that "fact"? But anyone who questioned it at the time was attacked as some kind of apostate.

The real debate here is about scale. I remember, years ago, when you could hear crickets chirping around here, and you could start 10 threads about the same subject and nobody whined. Now, of course, there are too many posters for that, and good threads get pushed off the page and replaced with someone's me-too thread. You can't solve that without getting discriminatory: yesterday, all animals were equal. Tomorrow, some animals have to be more equal.

Sad, but true. You're going to have to restrict who can post, or at least who can create new threads -- and you probably have to start with the vets. It's harsh, especially because some vets with 4,000 posts only got there by posting 3,999 really stupid posts, but it's gotta happen. The shameful part is that there are plenty of newbies with better, more insightful things to say than a lot of the veterans.

The other thing you should do is stop rewarding people for the number of posts, which only makes newbies want to post lots of things. Why not reward quality instead of quantity? After all, your current model of rewarding the number of posts has resulted in too much quantity and not enough quality.

[Tarhog]

I'll make my single high quality post in this thread

Guys....its a football messageboard. We've tripled our size in 3 years. I don't care if you're the corner drugstore, or FedEx Field, you experience that kind of growth, you're going to have some growing pains, and you're going to have some stress.

It is what it is.

You have no idea the time and energy staff has and is expending on coming up to some solutions to some of the concerns. But its a football messageboard. We think its a wonderful one (yep, even now), but its still a football messageboard.

We've got some good ideas on how to tweak things that will help. As I said during a few rough stretches during this last Redskins season, have a little faith in our guys and in our coaching staff - when you put quality people in positions to make decisions, they will find the solutions and make you proud. I think (excluding myself) we have a great staff on extremeskins and we will adjust to the monumental growth we've had. Trust us.

And remember, this isn't your marriage. You haven't just found out that your high school girlfriend is sleeping with your best bud, or that your marriage is a sham. Its a football messageboard. I care about it too. But lets keep it in perspective

Now go out there and make some great posts!

[TheLongshot]

For instance, yesterday Derek Smith resigned with the 49ers. He and his agent were quoted saying how much he wanted to be a 49er and be part of the rebuilding. That, of course, is total crap. He doesn't dare test the free agent waters in this uncertain year, especially with a glut of LBs on the market, so he took what he could get.

This statement isn't nessicarily fact either, since you have no evidence to back up your opinion. You could be right, but Smith's statement could also be correct as well.

There are plenty of example with the Skins. Remember when everyone on the team was raving about Taylor Jacobs? How he's the best receiver on the team? Who still believes that "fact"? But anyone who questioned it at the time was attacked as some kind of apostate.

They raved about what he did in practice. How could you question that if you weren't there? They were also disappointed that it didn't translate into gameday production, just like all of us were.

Sad, but true. You're going to have to restrict who can post, or at least who can create new threads -- and you probably have to start with the vets. It's harsh, especially because some vets with 4,000 posts only got there by posting 3,999 really stupid posts, but it's gotta happen. The shameful part is that there are plenty of newbies with better, more insightful things to say than a lot of the veterans.

Thing is, tho, a guy who has 3,999 really stupid posts is going to be known for his stupid posts in any case, and people will treat him likewise.

The other thing you should do is stop rewarding people for the number of posts, which only makes newbies want to post lots of things. Why not reward quality instead of quantity? After all, your current model of rewarding the number of posts has resulted in too much quantity and not enough quality.

It is a thought. Some forums, like Home Theater Forum, have gotten rid of post counts for just that reason.

Problem is, when you are talking about an emotional stuff like a pro football team, all of that goes out the window. People are going to make silly posts, no matter what.

I do think maybe restricting new thread posts for newbies may help a bit so that they can get a feel for how this forum works. Course, that would hurt guys who just register to post a scoop or two. Course, they could post to an Admin to lift that for them.

Jason

[MRMADD]

This statement isn't nessicarily fact either, since you have no evidence to back up your opinion. You could be right, but Smith's statement could also be correct as well.

That's my point. You can't treat it as fact. Sometimes the stuff in the paper is pure spin, like the Smith statements probably are. But too many people take a statement issued in a presser by an assistant coach, like the statement about Jacobs, as a "fact".

It is a thought. Some forums, like Home Theater Forum, have gotten rid of post counts for just that reason.

Problem is, when you are talking about an emotional stuff like a pro football team, all of that goes out the window. People are going to make silly posts, no matter what.

I do think maybe restricting new thread posts for newbies may help a bit so that they can get a feel for how this forum works. Course, that would hurt guys who just register to post a scoop or two. Course, they could post to an Admin to lift that for them.

Jason

You're probably right -- when breaking news happens, you'll still get the "Holy Sheet!" responses just for emotional reasons. But if you eliminate the post count, at least you get rid of the posts that are transparently made just to pump up your post count. Maybe it's only a marginal improvement, but still.

[TheLongshot]

That's my point. You can't treat it as fact. Sometimes the stuff in the paper is pure spin, like the Smith statements probably are. But too many people take a statement issued in a presser by an assistant coach, like the statement about Jacobs, as a "fact".

Course, I could also say, "Who cares what Smith's motivations are for returning?" Truth usually reveals itself over time. Sure, we probably never get the whole story, especially at first, but we usually get enough to be able to evaluate things.

Well, the statement about Jacobs was true about what the team felt about him, and it showed when he was penciled in as the #2 WR. The fact that he didn't perform doesn't contradict their statments back then.

I think a lot of us just wanted to see if the guy had something, and after all of this time, we finally got that opportunity. Unfortunatly, he didn't take advantage of that opportunity.

You're probably right -- when breaking news happens, you'll still get the "Holy Sheet!" responses just for emotional reasons. But if you eliminate the post count, at least you get rid of the posts that are transparently made just to pump up your post count. Maybe it's only a marginal improvement, but still.

I do think getting rid of the "post per day" stat helped more. That stat was just begging to be abused by some people.

Jason