An Example of How An Organization HELP Can Bring You Down with bad Press.

[Badgerrocks]

Regardless of what has happened and is happening between Lavar and the Redskins organization, everything that Lavar has done this week could have and should have been done after the season was over. It's as simple as that. This week was Lavar trying to turn the spotlight on himself. It was wrong.

As much as I love Lavar, I am afraid I have to agree with this. It should not have come out this week.:eaglesuck

[RDSCNZ20]

Its seems like every year and "core" reskins is been treated this way..

from S.Davis to now LA.. I agree with most that the timing and LA's action over the year has been suspect.. but FO has to share the blame.

[DCMONEY]

In my opinion I think Lavar handled his benching far better than I would've. Now none of are NFL coaches. But I for one think I know some football. I've coached and played it. Here is a guy who is an established veteran and 3 time pro bowler in 3 different schemes. This coaching staff tried to test our intelligence by saying Warrick Holdman was playing better than Lavar. Tell me when? I find it funny that when the Skins went into a little funk this year, the staff began to change up. I might have to do with how Tiki Barber went left at will in the Giants game and that was the final straw. Now Lavar is told he can play. Now the coaching staff says it was his play that got him benched nothing else. Its mighty when he's inserted, the talk from some coaches was his attitude is better. Now you said nothing of his attitude. According to Williams, Lavar had to get better. This coaching staff said several contradicting statements.

[Loyal2Washington]

Its seems like every year and "core" reskins is been treated this way..

from S.Davis to now LA.. I agree with most that the timing and LA's action over the year has been suspect.. but FO has to share the blame.

Actually the FO has to except nothing, it's Dannys team. If you and others do not come to grips with that, then your time as a fan is going to always be filled with heartbreak. Do you think LA is going to be the last fan favorite to be treated unfairly, as some see it.

:eaglesuck :gaintsuck :dallasuck

[trez]

The Redskins play the Eagles this Sunday.

[Zguy28]

Please no more! We want to beat Philly this weekend not become them!

[[[ghost]]]

thats an interesting way to look at it i guess

[redman]

Its seems like every year and "core" reskins is been treated this way..

from S.Davis to now LA.. I agree with most that the timing and LA's action over the year has been suspect.. but FO has to share the blame.

I'm still waiting for someone to name one of those "core Redskins" players who we've cut and who we're supposed to miss. SD had one good year afterwards and his career is now about done. Coles is averaging at last glance less yards per reception than Cooley. And Gardner? I can't remember which team he plays for now.

[fansince62]

1) Pierce had a good year until injured - his team was very happy.

2) SD went to the SB.....hmmmm....when have the Skins recently been there.

3) Coles is with a team that was bad all around. We got the better end of the deal, but he'll do fine once the Jets stabilize their offense.

4) McCardell.

5) trotter.

6) Sage/ferotte have had some good games mixed in with the bad.

7) Role players like Brad Badger continue to survive in the league.

8) The Broncos are tickled pink with Chump Bailey.

9) even though on the downside B-Mitch did ok in NY/Philly.

10) Stan Humphries went to a SB.

core or not...plenty of Redskin talent has moved on to other teams and been serviceable.

[DCMONEY]

For some of you I have to ask, if this team, by team I mean front office, is in your eyes such an evil team that they are constantly screwing players over, and now on the verge of destroying your hero, why the hell are you a fan of the team?

The Washington Redskins will be here after Lavar, CP, ST, Moss, and yes even Gibbs. If Lavar is to go then good riddance, there's nothing you can do, if your a Redskins fan. In the salary cap era players come and go so if the way the team handles player relations is this much of a strain on you, then be a fan of players, not a team, because Lavar is not and will not be the last player to be, in your eyes, screwed.

:eaglesuck :gaintsuck :dallasuck

I've been a Skins fans from day one but it doesn't mean I can't call a spade a spade. For you and all of the Lavar bashers to listen to some of the statements this coaching staff has made as to why Lavar wasn't playing warlier you had to see some contradictions in their statements. Lavar has had some faults too. But for you to feel this is 100% Lavar's fault is being blinded by the organization you like. I mean just because I'm Redskins fan doesn't mean I can't understand it.

[SkinsHokieFan]

1) Pierce had a good year until injured - his team was very happy.

2) SD went to the SB.....hmmmm....when have the Skins recently been there.

3) Coles is with a team that was bad all around. We got the better end of the deal, but he'll do fine once the Jets stabilize their offense.

4) McCardell.

5) trotter.

6) Sage/ferotte have had some good games mixed in with the bad.

7) Role players like Brad Badger continue to survive in the league.

8) The Broncos are tickled pink with Chump Bailey.

9) even though on the downside B-Mitch did ok in NY/Philly.

10) Stan Humphries went to a SB.

core or not...plenty of Redskin talent has moved on to other teams and been serviceable.

Fansince62, you can make that argument for many players that have left teams and gone on to another

It is the nature of the business

Humphries was traded in a bad trade, Gibbs said his my bad on that. He also got pounded in the Superbowl

Brad Badger? You are putting him up there? :laugh:

McCardell, 11th round pick, long shot to stick around here anyways. He made it, good for him

Sage/Frerrote :doh:

Trotter, look at how Lavar has been treated, you know how badly Trotter would have had it under GW

And I am very happy with the Champ-Portis/2nd round deal

The only place you have a point in SD. He had a great year in 2003 for the Panthers and got them to a SuperBowl. BMitch would have provided some terrific leadership in our locker room

Pierce took advantage of his situation. I am sorry, but in the salary cap game you can't have 3 linebackers with contracts like that. Pierce got more then Washington

This will always happen to every team. Can you imagine the Colts D with Marcus Washington?

[DCMONEY]

The very argument at the beginning of the Lavar debate. Coaches said that Lavar was out of place. Man he played 2 games last season. I have the games on tape in which he played. Nothing was said after those games. The contradiction never ceases.

[bubba9497]

LaVar to me is "the boy who cried wolf"

[indatrenches]

I'm still waiting for someone to name one of those "core Redskins" players who we've cut and who we're supposed to miss. SD had one good year afterwards and his career is now about done. Coles is averaging at last glance less yards per reception than Cooley. And Gardner? I can't remember which team he plays for now.

I'll just keep the list short and to the last 5/6 years for you.

*=came back

Brad Johnson

Kenard Lang

Champ Bailey

Fred Smoot

Antonio Pierce

Thrash*

Sellers*

Trent Green

Jamie Asher

Frank Wycheck- i had to throw in this one

Shawn Barber

Derek Smith

Gus Frerotte

Tre Johnson

[ZoEd]

I once learned of a situation with Muhsin Muhammad when he was with the Panthers. Teams have a way phasing you out when they want to. I'm paraphrasing a little. Muhammad talked about how he could see the writing on the wall in regards to how the Panthers dealt with him regarding the game plan. They began to use his age as an excuse. He was told basically that he didn't have it anymore. Also the fact that WR Steve Smith burst onto the scene in 2003 with 88 receptions helped solidify their reasons for not playing him. Well low and behold last season Steve Smith goes down. The Panthers had no choice but to make Muhammad the go to guy. He responded with 93 receptions. He had a great year in Smith's absence. People began to ask man how did you(Muhammad) do it? He basically replied I always had it but team had to make me the focus now. They (Panthers) were phasing him out before Smith's injury. This is an example of how the Skins do with their players before getting rid of them. Not exactly in this fashion because there are different situations for different players. Lavar isn't all clean in his situation but its clear that the team stopped marketing him and knew they were phasing him out. The defense having a great year last season with him being hurt is the reasoning they use to justify for phasing him out. That logic is stupid. I've seen the Bulls win over 50 games without Jordan. Didn't mean he wasn't needed. I've seen Magic take over for Kareem and the Lakers win the NBA Title but it didn't mean Kareem wasn't needed. Art Monk was hurt during the Skins 1st Superbowl Championship but it doesn't mean he wasn't needed. Rightly or Wrongly everyone can see that every since Lavar filed the 6.5 million case that the organization was done with him. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Skins have a tendency of bad mouth players to justify getting rid of them. Its not a coincidence that when Lavar came back this season teams stopped running off that left side at will, yet Williams would try to have us believe that Holdman was better at the weakside LB. Stevie Wonder could see thats bull. Lavar voicing his complaint now is bad timing but he's correct seeing whats happening around him. He's not paranoid or stupid. Hell it doesn't surprise me because the Skins seem to always do this to their own after these players have performed for the organization. The team tried to sell everyone the notion that Lavar wasn't ready for Williams complicated system. Cmon man. A man who's made the pro bowl in 3 different systems. Is Williams system anymore complicated than Ray Rhodes or marvin Lewis who's won Superbowls? Also I think its stupid for people to say man you have to disicplined to play in Williams system, like you don't have to be disicplined in any defensive scheme.

A Freakin Man brother. :applause: :applause: :applause:

You just summed up everything that I've been posting for the last two days. All the fingers are pointing at Lavar and none towards the organiztion.

Phasing him out is probably the most accurate term. The cap hit is going to be huge but instead of telling him it's time to restructure or go they "phase" him out. Makes sense.

I just feel there is more to this "falling from grace" scenario then most people want to believe. I can see Danny being a selfish little punk and treating Lavar like crap because of the dispute. Face it the only smart decision Danny has made is bringing back Gibbs. Other than that he's been a PUNK!

[chiefhogskin48]

I'll just keep the list short and to the last 5/6 years for you.

*=came back

Brad Johnson

Kenard Lang

Champ Bailey

Fred Smoot

Antonio Pierce

Thrash*

Sellers*

Trent Green

Jamie Asher

Frank Wycheck- i had to throw in this one

Shawn Barber

Derek Smith

Gus Frerotte

Tre Johnson

Wow, many of these are extreme stretches since they were tiny role players, made little impact, or were outright busts. Putting Kenard Lang up there would be like the Jags putting up Renaldo Wynn. Ditto for Derek Smith (this guy is so average, it's absurd). Even Shawn Barber has been a bust. He has had one decent year since he left our team. Smoot, by all accounts, has been a tremendous bust for the Vikings, especially considering the $.

Tre Johnson and Jamie Asher were out of the league just a season or two after we cut them loose. Same goes with guys like Connell, Westbrook, Derrius Thompson... the list goes on and on.

I think you have a legitimate point with Trent Green, Brad Johnson, Wychek, and a lesser extent James Thrash. But which organization doesn't cut loose quality players? It's the nature of the NFL. Not to mention, our current front office wasn't responsibile for the majority of the ones you've listed.

[ZoEd]

My final Lavar post and I'm washing my hands of it.

Please can someone tell me WHY GW said Lavar on the field makes his job easier if Lavar wasn't a good LB?

Why did GW tell me at the Redskins draft day, when I asked how are we going to pressure the QB and he told me #56?

Why, why, why unless it's something personnel, in which case Lavar is totally justified in his actions, has Lavar been treated this way?

I'M SURE LAVAR HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT. But to say it's only Lavar being a crybaby is ludacris.

[indatrenches]

Wow, many of these are extreme stretches since they were tiny role players, made little impact, or were outright busts. Putting Kenard Lang up there would be like the Jags putting up Renaldo Wynn. Ditto for Derek Smith (this guy is so average, it's absurd). Even Shawn Barber has been a bust. He has had one decent year since he left our team. Smoot, by all accounts, has been a tremendous bust for the Vikings, especially considering the $.

Tre Johnson and Jamie Asher were out of the league just a season or two after we cut them loose. Same goes with guys like Connell, Westbrook, Derrius Thompson... the list goes on and on.

Actually Kenard Lang is a good player for the Browns, maybe not stat wise but pressure wise(something we could have used the past few years without over spending on past talent B. Smith). Derek Smith AVERAGE!?!? when he was here he was average and pushed around since he left he been a 100 tackle guy every year look it up (i wonder how you do that on average talent and make the playoffs?) Could have keep him instead of having a revolving door of mlb every year.

I dont think your a bust once you come off of knee surgury (Barber) getting cut start for the Eagles then garner a multimillion dollar deal. sure he's hurt this year but that doesnt sound like bust to me.

Oh and Tre just retired in 02, something about bad knees.

[IronMike]

Fansince62:

Your earlier post was very perceptive and on point. No one on this board knows the personnel issues affecting HR relationships between management and the players. That is true of any organization. I have yet to meet any employee who, once s/he leaves an organization for another organization for more money, ever says anything good about the first organization. Lookat Trotter's comments about the Eagles when he left for the Skins, and now listen to his tune.

BUT your comments about core players who have been cut by this organization is silly. It appears that you have no appreciation or knowledge of the complexities or limitations on teams of the salary cap. Are you really trying to tell us that you would have paid S. Davis what he was demanding? Are you really trying to tell us that the Skins final offers to Pierce and Smoot were not very competitive? Are you really trying to blame Snyder for the league fiasco in the ownership snafu that led to Cooke the Lesser failing to sign Trent Green? Are you really trying to tell us that Champ Bailey and his wife did NOT want to be in Washington, no matter what Snyder was willing to pay him? Would you as general manager really have paid Kenard Lang what he was demanding after only one year of performance out of four?

These players were not "cut". They went elsewhere for more money. More power to them. That is the essence of the free market.

The only situation that I would agree with you, is Brad Johnson. But I am unable to determine whether that was Snyder or Norv. Somebody thought Jeff George was worth more $$$ that BJ was worth.

As I thought you were saying in your first post: the situation is more complex than we as fans can know. Lavar is not 100% in the right, nor is management (whether being defined as the FO, Snyder or the coaching staff). But your list of players is just plain silly. It detracts from an otherwise cogent point of view.

I hope everyone has a safe New Years Eve. Be careful out there, folks!

[Jumbo]

The Redskins play the Eagles this Sunday.

PLUCK THE EAGLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:eaglesuck :eaglesuck :eaglesuck

Sorry, wrong thread.

[Peregrine]

Good points DC. People like to take extremes...Its all LAs fault, its all the Redskins fault. Chances are, if there ARE problems, BOTH are at fault to an extent(but thats making the assumption there are problems, which is based on one article).

[fpickering]

For some of you I have to ask, if this team, by team I mean front office, is in your eyes such an evil team that they are constantly screwing players over, and now on the verge of destroying your hero, why the hell are you a fan of the team?

I have seen this line of argument before and I disagree with its premise.

Although I do not think that the organization is evil, I respect the opinions of fellow fans. I also acknowledge that many fans who post here have been loyal fans of this team for a long time and that affords them the right to disagree.

[DCMONEY]

My final Lavar post and I'm washing my hands of it.

Please can someone tell me WHY GW said Lavar on the field makes his job easier if Lavar wasn't a good LB?

Why did GW tell me at the Redskins draft day, when I asked how are we going to pressure the QB and he told me #56?

Why, why, why unless it's something personnel, in which case Lavar is totally justified in his actions, has Lavar been treated this way?

I'M SURE LAVAR HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT. But to say it's only Lavar being a crybaby is ludacris.

Amen :notworthy

[Destino]

Of course the team played a role in the Lavar situation. I would have thought this to be common sense. GW came in here and was all kinds of high on Lavar. Then the offseason crap goes down and the team doesn't need him. Suddenly he goes from making the coaching staff look good to being a freelancer. Blah blah. The team decided they didn't need him, and make no mistake about it they don't.

I'm shocked Lavar hasn't made more noise. He's not stupid and knows he's head and shoulders above Marshall and folding chair. He knows he's a better pass rusher then whatever 3rd stringer they put in there for him on 3rd downs. The writing is on the wall and MOST pro-bowl players would be in the media daily if they were shunned like Lavar has been.

Having said that Lavar is hurting my team by mouthing off at this crucial time in the season. I don't go to the games to watch Lavar, I go to watch the redskins. So if he has to go, cya bud. Sucks that it turned out this wya but since you can't do anything about it, may as well help your trade value and stfu about it.

[DCMONEY]

Fansince62:

Your earlier post was very perceptive and on point. No one on this board knows the personnel issues affecting HR relationships between management and the players. That is true of any organization. I have yet to meet any employee who, once s/he leaves an organization for another organization for more money, ever says anything good about the first organization. Lookat Trotter's comments about the Eagles when he left for the Skins, and now listen to his tune.

BUT your comments about core players who have been cut by this organization is silly. It appears that you have no appreciation or knowledge of the complexities or limitations on teams of the salary cap. Are you really trying to tell us that you would have paid S. Davis what he was demanding? Are you really trying to tell us that the Skins final offers to Pierce and Smoot were not very competitive? Are you really trying to blame Snyder for the league fiasco in the ownership snafu that led to Cooke the Lesser failing to sign Trent Green? Are you really trying to tell us that Champ Bailey and his wife did NOT want to be in Washington, no matter what Snyder was willing to pay him? Would you as general manager really have paid Kenard Lang what he was demanding after only one year of performance out of four?

These players were not "cut". They went elsewhere for more money. More power to them. That is the essence of the free market.

The only situation that I would agree with you, is Brad Johnson. But I am unable to determine whether that was Snyder or Norv. Somebody thought Jeff George was worth more $$$ that BJ was worth.

As I thought you were saying in your first post: the situation is more complex than we as fans can know. Lavar is not 100% in the right, nor is management (whether being defined as the FO, Snyder or the coaching staff). But your list of players is just plain silly. It detracts from an otherwise cogent point of view.

I hope everyone has a safe New Years Eve. Be careful out there, folks!

Man I get tired of people saying Champ didn't want to be here. I personally saw an interview with him. The reporter asked him point blank, are you coming back next season? He said and I qoute "The ball is in the Redskins court. They have to show me the money." He said this. I heard it. Now I'm sure he was tired of the losing. Any player would. Man I'll tell you this and you might say I'm lying. When Champ was shown the door, I told a buddy of mine back then watch and see. You just wait. Lavar Arrington will be next to go. Me and my boys were sitting in Ruby Tues eating and I said it. They'll bad mouth him. I guess the reason I'm so adamant about the front office and their dealings with our players is because I've been talking about it for years.