An Example of How An Organization HELP Can Bring You Down with bad Press.

[Jumbo]

I'll just keep the list short and to the last 5/6 years for you.

*=came back

Brad Johnson

Kenard Lang

Champ Bailey

Fred Smoot

Antonio Pierce

Thrash*

Sellers*

Trent Green

Jamie Asher

Frank Wycheck- i had to throw in this one

Shawn Barber

Derek Smith

Gus Frerotte

Tre Johnson

Among other munerous, repetitive errors in fact or logic, I'm weary of seeing Pierce and Smoot listed as among those who "got cut".

The majority (not all) of the "I support Lavar" arguments have been pretty much built on fact-free patent nonsense and emotionally- or ego-disrupted thinking, revisionist history, and idealized speculation to date. They actually don't do Lavar justice, other than in the ego-stroke department. If you really like the guy, be grateful none of you are advocating his cause in any professional capacity.

[ZoEd]

Of course the team played a role in the Lavar situation. I would have thought this to be common sense. GW came in here and was all kinds of high on Lavar. Then the offseason crap goes down and the team doesn't need him. Suddenly he goes from making the coaching staff look good to being a freelancer. Blah blah. The team decided they didn't need him, and make no mistake about it they don't.

I'm shocked Lavar hasn't made more noise. He's not stupid and knows he's head and shoulders above Marshall and folding chair. He knows he's a better pass rusher then whatever 3rd stringer they put in there for him on 3rd downs. The writing is on the wall and MOST pro-bowl players would be in the media daily if they were shunned like Lavar has been.

Having said that Lavar is hurting my team by mouthing off at this crucial time in the season. I don't go to the games to watch Lavar, I go to watch the redskins. So if he has to go, cya bud. Sucks that it turned out this wya but since you can't do anything about it, may as well help your trade value and stfu about it.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

It's good to see someone with as many posts as you come in here and point out what we've all been trying to say. Amen Brother!

[TheLongshot]

Of course the team played a role in the Lavar situation. I would have thought this to be common sense. GW came in here and was all kinds of high on Lavar. Then the offseason crap goes down and the team doesn't need him. Suddenly he goes from making the coaching staff look good to being a freelancer. Blah blah. The team decided they didn't need him, and make no mistake about it they don't.

I'm shocked Lavar hasn't made more noise. He's not stupid and knows he's head and shoulders above Marshall and folding chair. He knows he's a better pass rusher then whatever 3rd stringer they put in there for him on 3rd downs. The writing is on the wall and MOST pro-bowl players would be in the media daily if they were shunned like Lavar has been.

Course, this totally ignores the fact that Lavar was coming off knee surgery and couldn't start working out until midway through training camp. Any thought that he might not have been in football shape? Any thought that he wasn't playing like he should because he was favoring the knee a bit? Hell, even Lavar admitted that after the fact. Course, we ignore these things and still use the old saw that the team "doesn't feel they need him". If that was true, he wouldn't have seen the field all year. I also think we haven't seen all that Lavar can be this season either.

I also take issue with the "evidence" that former players have bad things to say about their former organization. Name me a team where that isn't true. Certainly, the Patriots have enough players with axes to grind, but we don't critisize their organizations. It is just smart business.

Certianly, the front office has issues that predate Gibbs that are still in effect. At the same time, I don't see anything post-Gibbs that the team has mishandled. The contract issue with Lavar predated Gibbs.

If anything, the main problem with management is probably the personal touch that Snyder did early on, that he's now getting away from because that isn't the proper way to handle things in the NFL. That's part of the reason why Lavar is miffed, but it is never good when players can jump the chain of command.

Jason

[jimster]

Almost every player that leaves here has something negative to say about their treatment. Where there is smoke there's fire... and it's been burning for a while around here.

It's not just Lavar.

yeah like Champ. - He stated he wanted to be the highest paid defensive player in the NFL, the Redskins felt differently.

like Pierce - Who thinks he'd be a starter right now with a fat contract for any NFL team at a position he never played before last year if it weren't for the Redskins? - Then the team offered him a generous contract and he turned it down to play somewhere else for a small amount more. - Boy sure sounds like the Redskins sure are bad. :doh:

Raymer, Thrash, Rasby and Sellers had so many ill feelings they came back.

Some players feel slighted because an ex-team thinks they aren't worth "x" amount of money and another team does. That doesn't mean that the team that let them go are doing bad business and it doesn't mean the player is a bum- it's just doing business.

Look at the New England Patriots. Troy Brown last year played a key role on offense, defense and special teams throughout the season, and as thanks, he got cut at the end of the year. - But because it was the Patriots everyone said "oh, it's just business" - Truth is they felt it would be irresponsible to over-pay one player and neglect other needs. They ended up re-signing him to a smaller contract a couple months later, but you get the point.

[jimster]

Good points DC. People like to take extremes...Its all LAs fault, its all the Redskins fault. Chances are, if there ARE problems, BOTH are at fault to an extent(but thats making the assumption there are problems, which is based on one article).

I think this is why Gibbs asked for a compromise in the arbritration, so no one would be singled out to blame.

I think 99% of this hoopla this week is the media, not Lavar, not the team.

[NavyDave]

I guess we treated laverne Coles bad too after he got the accept the trade or a flatscreen option?

Well with Lavar leaving it will hurt profits going to the medical industry when his house parties result in some one a beat down or shot.

I'll take the Joe Gibb players any day when it helps us go deep in the playoffs.

[Jumbo]

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

It's good to see someone with as many posts as you come in here and point out what we've all been trying to say. Amen Brother!

Gee. And how many little clappy-hands did you put up for the large numbers of posters with "as many posts" who disagreed with "what we've all been trying to say"? :doh:

[TheLongshot]

Man I get tired of people saying Champ didn't want to be here. I personally saw an interview with him. The reporter asked him point blank, are you coming back next season? He said and I qoute "The ball is in the Redskins court. They have to show me the money." He said this. I heard it. Now I'm sure he was tired of the losing. Any player would. Man I'll tell you this and you might say I'm lying. When Champ was shown the door, I told a buddy of mine back then watch and see. You just wait. Lavar Arrington will be next to go. Me and my boys were sitting in Ruby Tues eating and I said it. They'll bad mouth him. I guess the reason I'm so adamant about the front office and their dealings with our players is because I've been talking about it for years.

Problem is, this isn't the complete story. You are forgetting the part where Champ publicly declared his support for George Edwards, and gave a not so vague hint that if Edwards was gone, so would he. It was so obvious that Champ was so frustrated at the rotation at the D-coordinator position that he didn't want to deal with it anymore, unless the skins drove a truckload of money to his door. I think he knew that wasn't going to happen, with the fat contract that Lavar got.

To be honest, I don't blame Champ for feeling that way. No matter what you are being paid, it is tough to see the plan getting ripped up every year and starting over again.

Whenever you are trying to get better as an organization and have gotten into a lot of bad habits, you are probably going to lose some talented players because they are sick of things and don't buy into what you are doing for whatever reason. Such is the way of things. I think a lot of what is happening with Lavar is the fact that Snyder coddled him and basically gave him whatever he wanted. Now, that we have coaches who want to instill some disipline, he's bristling at it. This, combined with the unlucky fact that Lavar has gotten a major injury for the first time in his career, he's not taking it well. He's so used to having everything handed to him, he's not used to actually earning his job, even if he's not quite up to the standard he needs to live up to.

Jason

[DCMONEY]

Whenever you are trying to get better as an organization and have gotten into a lot of bad habits, you are probably going to lose some talented players because they are sick of things and don't buy into what you are doing for whatever reason. Such is the way of things. I think a lot of what is happening with Lavar is the fact that Snyder coddled him and basically gave him whatever he wanted. Now, that we have coaches who want to instill some disipline, he's bristling at it. This, combined with the unlucky fact that Lavar has gotten a major injury for the first time in his career, he's not taking it well. He's so used to having everything handed to him, he's not used to actually earning his job, even if he's not quite up to the standard he needs to live up to.

Jason

Earning his job? I mean I'll say it again Lavar is better than Warrick Holdman period. Now i can see them amking Lavar get in game shape. But Lavar's position is WLB. Holdman isn't better. So why play games?

[SlinginSammy HOF '63]

We were 5-11 with him. We are 9-6 without him. Let him walk. I can't believe we are about to embark in one of our best seasons in 13 years and we're more concerned about LA than winning. I guess when you have nothing to ***** about you may as well create something. That would be the definition of the hangover of the loser mentality we've developed over the last dozen years.

[TheSteve]

We were 5-11 with him. We are 9-6 without him. Let him walk. I can't believe we are about to embark in one of our best seasons in 13 years and we're more concerned about LA than winning.

The New York Knicks also made it to the NBA Finals with Patrick Ewing injured. Did that mean they didn't have any better a shot at beating the Spurs if he had been healthy for the finals?

All the facts you quoted mean is that TEAM can when without an individual, it doesn't mean that the individual cannot HELP the team, or that the team would not be better off if that player were PLAYING.

[ZoEd]

Gee. And how many little clappy-hands did you put up for the large numbers of posters with "as many posts" who disagreed with "what we've all been trying to say"? :doh:

No clappy hands, just utter disbelief that "seasoned" veterans on this board want to rest the entire "Lavar Gate" incident soley on the shoulders of Lavar and place no blame or at least entertain the fact that the organization has their fair share of the blame.

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[SlinginSammy HOF '63]

No he does not help the team when he has to whine to the media every week it seems. This has been going on for months now. Yeah he is a good player but he's a media whore who thinks he should be the face of the team.

[TheLongshot]

Earning his job? I mean I'll say it again Lavar is better than Warrick Holdman period. Now i can see them amking Lavar get in game shape. But Lavar's position is WLB. Holdman isn't better. So why play games?

I don't argue that Lavar is a better player than Holdman when Lavar is well. Problem was, Lavar wasn't back. He was still recovering, favoring his knee, and he missed all the reps he would have gotten in the offseason and the preseason. Therefore, he had a lot of catching up to do.

I think also there was some hope that Holdman would get out of his funk and pick things up. Often when a player struggles, you hope that he can play his way out of it. Unfortunatly, it didn't quite happen for Holdman.

Jason

[Jumbo]

No clappy hands, just utter disbelief that "seasoned" veterans on this board want to rest the entire "Lavar Gate" incident soley on the shoulders of Lavar and place no blame or at least entertain the fact that the organization has their fair share of the blame.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Your impotent response is a childishly simplistic generalization of the wide range of differing POV's on the topic. It also dodges my comment, as you repeat here, that you seem to decide the quality of a seasoned (minus italics) veteran of the board based soley on whether or not he aligns with your beliefs on this single widely-debated topic.

Consistent with the overwhelming majority of your posts to date, these further my belief that our interactions will be brief, no doubt mercifully so for us both.

[ZoEd]

Your impotent response is a childishly simplistic generalization of the wide range of differing POV's on the topic. It also dodges my comment, as you repeat here, that you seem to decide the quality of a seasoned (minus italics) veteran of the board based soley on whether or not he aligns with your beliefs on this single widely-debated topic.

Consistent with the overwhelming majority of your posts to date, these further my belief that our interactions will be brief, no doubt mercifully so for us both.

Wow all of them big words you must be a lawyer.

My POV is that using big words doesn't make you right.

I didn't dodge your comment I was merely making an observation that most of the "veterans" on the board are anti Lavar and are placing the blame solely on him. Merely an opinion. Maybe the veterans have an inside scoop unlike us mere mortals that use this forum as a platform for discussion to try and make since of this Lavar situation. Sorry I offended you by applauding someones opinion.

Since you speak of impotence maybe it's an insecurity issue that you're dealing with. By no means did my post insinuate that the veterans on this board only made quality posts when their POV's agreed with mine.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Jumbo]

Wow all of them big words you must be a lawyer.

My POV is that using big words doesn't make you right.

I didn't dodge your comment I was merely making an observation that most of the "veterans" on the board are anti Lavar and are placing the blame solely on him. Merely an opinion. Maybe the veterans have an inside scoop unlike us mere mortals that use this forum as a platform for discussion to try and make since of this Lavar situation. Sorry I offended you by applauding someones opinion.

Since you speak of impotence maybe it's an insecurity issue that you're dealing with. By no means did my post insinuate that the veterans on this board only made quality posts when their POV's agreed with mine.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Not a lawyer. No apology offered for the big words. No insecurity issue, the word has other uses. Not offended. No point in saying more about the rest of your response.

Instead I'll say this: as I read in another thread you posted in, we both share an intense interest in this site and the Redskins, and we both like hunting. And, judging by your location, we spend a lot of time in similar environements. Here's to taking care of priorities Sunday! :eaglesuck

[ImmortalDragon]

ZoEd is right, the vets act as if Gibbs is God and cannot make a mistake.

[Tarpon75]

1) Pierce had a good year until injured - his team was very happy.

2) SD went to the SB.....hmmmm....when have the Skins recently been there.

3) Coles is with a team that was bad all around. We got the better end of the deal, but he'll do fine once the Jets stabilize their offense.

4) McCardell.

5) trotter.

6) Sage/ferotte have had some good games mixed in with the bad.

7) Role players like Brad Badger continue to survive in the league.

And so have players from every other franchise in the league

8) The Broncos are tickled pink with Chump Bailey.

9) even though on the downside B-Mitch did ok in NY/Philly.

10) Stan Humphries went to a SB.

core or not...plenty of Redskin talent has moved on to other teams and been serviceable.

And players from every team in the league have done the same thing including some that came Washington and helped the Skins.That goes on with every sport and every team.No offense but I don't get your point.

[Tarpon75]

Logically you have to think that both sides have made mistakes during this saga.However,as stated all of this could have waited until after the season.What purpose does airing it now serve?I do believe wherever Lavar goes there wiil be controversy and the Redskins,as all teams have will make mistakes with personel.

[Nicealot]

I don't argue that Lavar is a better player than Holdman when Lavar is well. Problem was, Lavar wasn't back. He was still recovering, favoring his knee, and he missed all the reps he would have gotten in the offseason and the preseason. Therefore, he had a lot of catching up to do.

I think also there was some hope that Holdman would get out of his funk and pick things up. Often when a player struggles, you hope that he can play his way out of it. Unfortunatly, it didn't quite happen for Holdman.

Jason

Very well put.

What I just don't get, if LaVar is so much about the team, is why he always speaks in the first person ("I'm not the face of the team" "I have more jerseys in the stands" "I, I, I..." Why can't it just be about the team. Yes, he does mention the team from time to time, but listen, just listen to how he always manages to slip a first person singular comment about himself in the conversation as well...

And by the way, didn't LaVar complain at one point about being assigned to pass rushing duties under Marvin Lewis?

[scruffylookin]

Of course the team played a role in the Lavar situation. I would have thought this to be common sense. GW came in here and was all kinds of high on Lavar. Then the offseason crap goes down and the team doesn't need him. Suddenly he goes from making the coaching staff look good to being a freelancer. Blah blah. The team decided they didn't need him, and make no mistake about it they don't.

I'm shocked Lavar hasn't made more noise. He's not stupid and knows he's head and shoulders above Marshall and folding chair. He knows he's a better pass rusher then whatever 3rd stringer they put in there for him on 3rd downs. The writing is on the wall and MOST pro-bowl players would be in the media daily if they were shunned like Lavar has been.

Having said that Lavar is hurting my team by mouthing off at this crucial time in the season. I don't go to the games to watch Lavar, I go to watch the redskins. So if he has to go, cya bud. Sucks that it turned out this wya but since you can't do anything about it, may as well help your trade value and stfu about it.

:notworthy

While I do think this team could use a healthy LaVar, I pretty much agree with everything you wrote. LaVar has been my favorite player ever since he got here (and he's the first player I can remember watching in college, dreamed of the Redskins getting him and then the Redskins actually got him) and I also feel that the organization/defensive coaches are most responsible for this fracture in the relationship and that was evidenced by LaVar's position coach showing what a "man" he is by insulting LaVar on a personal level and not keeping things professional. But it is time to move on and focus on the team, not only for the playoffs but for the seasons to come.

If I can get over Richie Petitbon getting rid of Gary Clark (all time favorite Redskin) and Wilbur Marshall, I'll get over the divorce of LA and the Skins.

:eaglesuck

[ZoEd]

Not a lawyer. No apology offered for the big words. No insecurity issue, the word has other uses. Not offended. No point in saying more about the rest of your response.

Instead I'll say this: as I read in another thread you posted in, we both share an intense interest in this site and the Redskins, and we both like hunting. And, judging by your location, we spend a lot of time in similar environements. Here's to taking care of priorities Sunday! :eaglesuck

Well Jumbo Hail to the Redskins brother. Here's to kicking the snot out of the Eagles and to agreeing to disagree. :laugh: A little healthy banter is good for all of us, keeps up from doing it with the wives.

Sure wish there was more hunting in the desert though.

[DCMONEY]

The New York Knicks also made it to the NBA Finals with Patrick Ewing injured. Did that mean they didn't have any better a shot at beating the Spurs if he had been healthy for the finals?

All the facts you quoted mean is that TEAM can when without an individual, it doesn't mean that the individual cannot HELP the team, or that the team would not be better off if that player were PLAYING.

Good example.

[SkinsFTW]

Almost every player that leaves here has something negative to say about their treatment. Where there is smoke there's fire... and it's been burning for a while around here.

It's not just Lavar.

Yeah, the same as when players leave the Patriots. They ***** and moan, the Pats are unfair, Belichick is an ass, my Ring isn't shinier than the one they gave Patrick Pass etc.

But guess what?

The Pats keep winning.

I'm a Redskins fan.

All you Lavar fans can go and be a Chargers fan or a Steelers fan next year for all I care but I was a Redskins fan when Lavar wore huggies/pampers so it really doesn't matter to me that he isn't happy to receive the largest paycheck of a linebacker in the league to make a couple tackles a game and blow and assignment or 3. :2cents: