Christmas debate.

[tlk2rn]

This a pretty interesting article written buy my sisters roommate at Oral Roberts University. My opinion is at the end of her statement.

If you've watched Bill O'Reilly lately, you've heard about his investigation into the war on religion. This war being the few people out there who are trying to dissolve any connections to religion in the public place that conflicts with their beliefs.

Most recently, he's received confirmations from major department stores stating their position on using either "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays" when greeting their holiday shoppers. Although some confirm that they will continue to wish people a Merry Christmas, some say that they will say Happy Holidays instead as not to make their customers uncomfortable.

Now, about 85% of Americans say they are Christians so that would lead me to believe that 85% of christmas shopping clientele is Christian. I'm not seeing the argument about offending the customer.

Rather than upset the other 15% of people who are not Christians, they would rather offend the 85% of customers who are. Hmmmmm.... and that is going by the conclusion that 15% of people are making an uproar about the word Christmas.

I've met people who say they are either athiest or simply no religion at all. Although these individuals don't believe the way I do, I've never known them to go out and bash Christians or trample on their beliefs. I'm sure some people do, just as there are the over aggressive Bible beaters on the other side. However, when it comes to religion, which is not usually a topic of discussion among people, most believe what they do and let others do the same. I have a hard time believing that all of this 15% of people in America have gotten together and waged a war on opposing beliefs.

The truth is that a tiny group of people have problems with relgious connotation in any shape or form. It's hard to believe that companies, school boards, would cater to such a small group and risk alienating the rest of the people. I suppose their is some random thought that if you cater to the few, it will make it better for the whole??

I don't celebrate Kwanza, La dia de los muertos, juneteenth, MLK, lint, cinco de mayo, rosh hashana, yom kipur, but I'm not out to delete those says from the caldendar, or have the MLK holiday changed to "EVERYONE who fought for equality day" simply because I don't celebrate it. I don't fight to have parades that honor things I don't celebrate removed. America is a melting pot of different backgrounds and people celebrate days that are special to them. Nobody is forcing someone to think or believe what they believe.

The fact is that December 25th has always been called Christmas in America and the school holiday in observation of is called "Christmas Break". If someone doesn't want a "Christmas" break from work or school, they can gladly not stay home because nobody is forcing them to stay home and light the advent wreath when you can just as easily celebrate Santa and Rudolph instead of Jesus.

Religious holidays like Christmas or Easter aren't as complicated as people want to make them out to be. Santa and the Easter bunny are easy options instead of Jesus. As for me, I will gladly take my Martin Luther King day off from school even if I don't celebrate it.

http://seeingred.blogstream.com/v1/pid/18138_The-Christmas-Debate.html

Now me personally you can say what you want to say. I will continue to say Merry Chrismas, I will not call it a holiday tree, and I refuse to put an X in place of Christ. Dec. 25 is set aside to recognize the birth of our Savior. Were it not for Him we would have no giving of Chrismas gifts, days off of work, Carols, dinners and all other things associated with this holiday. That is what I believe, that has been engrained in me since birth and it will continue to remain with me until death. I dont care what people do personally, that is their lives, they can believe what they want, say what they want, but dont dont impose that crap on the lives of people who believe this way. I was in Wachovia yesterday and before I left the teller said,"Have a happy holidays."

I gave her a smile and said,"you have a Merry Chrismas too."

[Kilmer17]

Everyone who fought for equality day?

classic.

And coming soon to a legislature near Birmingham.

[SEF]

Nice strawman. A college student wrote that, huh?

[bearrock]

So shouldn't it just be people saying whatever they want to say? If you want to greet with Happy Holidays, do it that way and if you want to greet with Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah, Happy Kwanza, Happy Make Me the Ruler of the World day, whatever, then do it that way. I mean I certainly wouldn't expect a Jewish person to wish me Merry Christmas, I would expect them to use Happy Hanukah or Happy Holidays. For those people that use Happy Holidays, they don't want to celebrate Christmas publicly, and maybe not privately either, and I see no problem with that.

As for companies and government choosing to go with Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, I can appreciate why they do that. That way they get to say a greeting that applies to just about everyone rather than something that applies to 85%. I mean if someone at my church came up to me at the Christmas service and said Happy Holidays I would like "huh?", but for companies and government, I think its about trying to include everybody.

[Henry]

tlk2rn is spot on. If you are secure enough with your personal beliefs, you shouldn't need Target to legitimize them for you by recognizing ONLY your holiday in it's greeting. I can't believe what a big deal some people are making this out to be.

[Kilmer17]

tlk2rn is spot on. If you are secure enough with your personal beliefs, you shouldn't need Target to legitimize them for you by recognizing ONLY your holiday in it's greeting. I can't believe what a big deal some people are making this out to be.

Shouldnt that idea apply to both sides of the argument?

If someone is secure enough in their atheism, a Merry Christmas sign shouldnt cause them any concern.

[@DCGoldPants]

yeah, and the crazy thing is. I still don't see this "War" on anything.

I see X-mas stuff at the Malls. I see it on TV, its all over the place.

These people who are scream at STORES about the X-mas stuff, just don't get it.

WWJS? (Where would Jesus Shop?) I'm guessing not Target or any other giant chain store.

[rincewind]

Did anyone see the Daily Show last night? Apparently O'Reilly is attacking Jon for a piece that ran last year.

The piece was pretty funny - Samantha Bee said something like "Christmas is the only religious holiday that is also a federal holiday. Its nice because it allows Christians to go to church to celebrate the birth of Christ. And allows everybody else to stay home and ponder the true meaning of the seperation of Church and State." :laugh: :laugh:

[Dan T.]

"Although some confirm that they will continue to wish people a Merry Christmas, some say that they will say Happy Holidays instead as not to make their customers uncomfortable.

Now, about 85% of Americans say they are Christians so that would lead me to believe that 85% of christmas shopping clientele is Christian. I'm not seeing the argument about offending the customer.

Rather than upset the other 15% of people who are not Christians, they would rather offend the 85% of customers who are."

So your sister's roommate is offended when people tell her "Happy Holidays"? To me, that is an intolerant and rather hostile response to someone trying to be innocuous and pleasant. Why is "Happy Holidays" offensive?

"Merry Christmas" might be off-putting to a Jew or other non-Christian. Why take the chance of offending someone you don't know with a very specific "Merry Christmas" when a more generic "Happy Holdiays" serves the same purpose?

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

yeah, and the crazy thing is. I still don't see this "War" on anything.

I see X-mas stuff at the Malls. I see it on TV, its all over the place.

These people who are scream at STORES about the X-mas stuff, just don't get it.

WWJS? (Where would Jesus Shop?) I'm guessing not Target or any other giant chain store.

The simple fact that you elected to write "X-mas" instead of " Christmas, to me, shows that the perceived war is indeed going on, and it is one-sided. Replacing the name "Christ" with an "X" is an affront to those 85% who celebrate Christmas in this nation. So why can't they voice their displeasure at a few stores?

Also, the WWJS comment shows, too, that, as a whole, the "reason for the season" has long ago been forgotten. :2cents:

[Henry]

Shouldnt that idea apply to both sides of the argument?

If someone is secure enough in their atheism, a Merry Christmas sign shouldnt cause them any concern.

You're right. It shouldn't. And as a Jew it doesn't cause me any concern whatsoever. I've lived by what I just said above all my life, so I'm talking from experience here.

However, what is offensive about 'Happy Holidays'? It includes Christmas, but also works for anyone that celebrates one of the many other holidays that occurs around this time of year. It's a far more inclusive greeting in a nation of diverse peoples. Why is including me in a greeting offensive to you? I still haven't heard a decent answer to that simple question.

It's not about not offending atheists. It's about having something nice to say to everyone. Why do some Christians have a problem with that?

[DjTj]

Everyone who fought for equality day?

classic.

And coming soon to a legislature near Birmingham.

As recently as 2000, Virginia celebrated Lee-Jackson-King day (and neither Lee nor Jackson fought for equality).

Shouldnt that idea apply to both sides of the argument?

If someone is secure enough in their atheism, a Merry Christmas sign shouldnt cause them any concern.

You are right.

We should all be indifferent to the signs that Target or Wal-Mart put up. Everyone needs to just get over it.

[SoCalSkins]

Shouldnt that idea apply to both sides of the argument?

If someone is secure enough in their atheism, a Merry Christmas sign shouldnt cause them any concern.

But Christmas has stolen the celebration of the winter soltice and made it a Christian holiday. So to go back to its original roots would actually require moving away from Christian traditions.

That is what I find most amusing about this debate. The holiday was never a Christian holiday in its roots, but Chritians incorporated the celebration into their religion. Now that Christianity is being taken out of the season publicly, you have an uproar from Christians who themselves did the same thing originally.

[Kilmer17]

As recently as 2000, Virginia celebrated Lee-Jackson-King day (and neither Lee nor Jackson fought for equality).

You are right.

We should all be indifferent to the signs that Target or Wal-Mart put up. Everyone needs to just get over it.

Yes they should. It's Christmas. Why is that offensive to ANYONE?

[rincewind]

My problem with saying 'Happy Holidays' is the actual reasoning behind it. The fact that some companies are so scared of offending somebody that they can no longer say 'Merry Christmas' is sickening. I agree 'Happy Holidays' is nicer as it includes everyone - I just wish they had thought of it for that reason and not because some PC piece of **** didn't celebrate Christmas.

[Henry]

Yes they should. It's Christmas. Why is that offensive to ANYONE?

Christmas isn't offensive to non-Christians. However, pretending non-Christians don't exist might be.

[@DCGoldPants]

The simple fact that you elected to write "X-mas" instead of " Christmas, to me, shows that the perceived war is indeed going on, and it is one-sided. Replacing the name "Christ" with an "X" is an affront to those 85% who celebrate Christmas in this nation. So why can't they voice their displeasure at a few stores?

Also, the WWJS comment shows, too, that, as a whole, the "reason for the season" has long ago been forgotten. :2cents:

and sadly, you are in the minority. Generations of American's associate Christmas with Santa, Candycanes, Presents and winter vacation. You ask these people their Christmas memories and its not Jesus unless its "When Johnny played a wiseman in the play".

[Henry]

My problem with saying 'Happy Holidays' is the actual reasoning behind it. The fact that some companies are so scared of offending somebody that they can no longer say 'Merry Christmas' is sickening. I agree 'Happy Holidays' is nicer as it includes everyone - I just wish they had thought of it for that reason and not because some PC piece of **** didn't celebrate Christmas.

Do you have an inter-office memo from the Target head-office stating "Christmas is offensive. Pretend it doesn't exist."

Where did you hear proof of their reasoning behind their suggestion that employees say Happy Holidays?

[Kilmer17]

Do you have an inter-office memo from the Target head-office stating "Christmas is offensive. Pretend it doesn't exist." Where did you hear proof of their reasoning behind their suggestion that employees say Happy Holidays?

I do have the one from my old company (years ago) that said that. Actually it said " for the benefit of your customer satisfaction scores, do not wish clients Merry Christmas, opt for a generic Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings.

[Taylor 36]

My problem with saying 'Happy Holidays' is the actual reasoning behind it. The fact that some companies are so scared of offending somebody that they can no longer say 'Merry Christmas' is sickening. I agree 'Happy Holidays' is nicer as it includes everyone - I just wish they had thought of it for that reason and not because some PC piece of **** didn't celebrate Christmas.

This, I agree with.

[rincewind]

Do you have an inter-office memo from the Target head-office stating "Christmas is offensive. Pretend it doesn't exist."

Where did you hear proof of their reasoning behind their suggestion that employees say Happy Holidays?

I'll admit i'm going by hearsay (though I'm 90% positive that is why WalMart said they are doing it). Maybe i'm being a sheep here, but it seems to be popular belief that this is the reasoning behind it.

If not, i'll admit my mistake and pat them on the back. Do you have any proof that it it NOT why they are doing it?

[Predicto]

This debate is funny.

Both sides keep saying: why are YOU offended if they say what I want? I have the right to be offended because I am the (majority/minority) but YOU do not have the right to be offended because you are the (majority/minority).

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with either greeting. There is something wrong with getting upset about it, no matter which greeting you get. There is no war on Christmas, there is no intent to oppress non-Christians. There is only an effort to market goods the most effectively, in the great American tradition.

[Henry]

I do have the one from my old company (years ago) that said that. Actually it said " for the benefit of your customer satisfaction scores, do not wish clients Merry Christmas, opt for a generic Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings.

So ... in order to better satisfy customers, say 'Happy Holidays'? The almighty dollar speaks, though I must have missed the part where it says Christmas is offensive.

[rincewind]

So ... in order to better satisfy customers, say 'Happy Holidays'? The almighty dollar speaks, though I must have missed the part where it says Christmas is offensive.

I believe it is implied. As in: "If you say Merry Christmas, you may offend and therefore have unsatisfied customers."

You have to say Happy Holidays as to not offend Costanza

[SkinsNut73]

You know...every year this debate cracks me up. Some people get so torqued up over the "Happy Holiday" greeting. For what? As a Christian, I tend to greet people with a "Merry Christmas"...it's just what I'm used to doing and I doubt I'll ever switch over to Happy Holidays. If I ever greeted someone that way and they were offended by it, I would sincerely apologize.

Conversely, I'm not offended when someone greets me with a Happy Hanukkah. Happens quite often as I work for a company owned by a Jewish man...our main manufacturing plant is in Israel...and my last name sounds Jewish. I don't get all wrapped around the axle about it...no big deal.

Maybe I'm just flippant when it comes to this...

...or maybe I have bigger problems to worry about (like the Skins making the playoffs, or my fantasy team advancing in the playoffs - dammit Tony Dungy...don't you dare start sitting Peyton Manning:))than how someone greets me during the holidays.

Heck, you should be glad someone cared enough to greet you...