Okay, I think I got this Islam thing figured out.

[hoskins]

Does anyone else find it quite Ironic that the Christian extremists and the Muslim extremisis are pretty close in ideology? They BOTH believe in a radical form of their religion, and the BOTH believe their religion gives them the reason to kill others.

Chomerics, you claim that there is a radical form of Islam. Which would imply that there is a non-radical form of Islam.

Please show me where the non-radical form of Islam is documented. Or where is this non-radical form of Islam taught?

[codeorama]

what im saying is good deeds wont get you into heaven.accepting Jesus Christ is the way to heaven.Jesus said there is only one way to the father and that is through him.

So that's what they tell you. Until you learn to read greek and hebrew, you'll only know what others think you should know.

[70th Week]

i have read some of the hebrew text and the king james version derives from the hebrew text.

[codeorama]

i have read some of the hebrew text and the king james version derives from the hebrew text.

Try to translate someting from French into English, then back. You'll be amazed.

I've posted this before, but Reggie White, the ex preacher/packer... :paranoid: had a big change of heart before he died, ESPN ran a story on it. He learned to read Hebrew and Greek and went back and read the scriptures and came to the conclusion that the word that kept being translated over and over as meaning "faith" should have been translated as "obediance" which changed the meanings drastically. He started to believe that Jesus was preaching to live you life AS he did, not to have faith that he was the literal son of god. That makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than getting a free pass by just believing. The world would be a much better place if everyone lived by Jesus' example rather than just believing.

[70th Week]

no one said you get a free pass. the bible says to repent daily and confess your sins.

[hoskins]

The world would be a much better place if everyone lived by Jesus' example rather than just believing.

That has to be smartest thing anyone has written in this long thread.

I'm not a Christian, but I do respect Jesus' example.

The corollary to this, btw, is if more people followed Muhammed's example the world would be much WORSE place. All you have to do is read his parables and his stories to see that.

[Crazyhorse1]

Think through your logic a little bit. There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. A few million in the United States.

You've met 10. Sounds like they are fine fellows/gals. And so based on your observation of 10 muslims you are assuming that the religion of Islam is peaceful and wonderful. And you are assuming that the radical "sect" is a small minority of Muslims based on your personal observation of TEN.

BTW, I really don't want to be on this thread anymore, but I'm reading such absurd things here that I can't help myself. They say ignorance is bliss. Chamberlain would probably be proud.

You seem to want to seperate the political ideology of Islam from the "religion". Now as you know from your extensive research into Islam, there are a number of sects and a number of schools of thought and jurisprudence. These have names and schools and bodies of literature associated with them.These range from the "moderate" to the "extremist".

Now let's look at just the moderate schools of thought. Those who are active in ijtihad and have disavowed jihad. Even among the moderate ijtihadists, how many would agree with you that the political ideology of Islam is distinct from the theology of Islam? I haven't seen more than a couple dozen ijthihadists who think that you can seperate the ideology from the religion. And in every debate that I've seen between ijthihadists and jihadists, I've never seen a moderate be able to successfully point out any scripture or any publication of the mainstream Ulema that supports thier position.

Contrast this with Christians. The goal of mainstream Christians is to seek guidance from Jesus and to be more like him. That's not a controversial statement. And the philosophy and demeanor of Jesus is set out in the Gospel. And so even though Christians like any other people are imperfect, at least they have a positive goal to work towards. And so when some fringe element comes up, it's fairly easy to demonstrate through the Gospels that extremism is not Christian. And so the stories of Jesus and his parables are a major moderating force on Christianity.

Now ask your 10 muslim friends this question: Is Muhammed free of sin? Go to any mosque in this country or on this planet and ask if Muhammed is free of sin (in both his public and private life) and if he led a perfect protypical life of a Muslim. Ask them if their end goal in life is to be like Muhammed. (Anybody who says no to this is NOT a Muslim. Anybody who says no to this would be executed as an apostate in any Muslim country)

Then further ask any Muslim if the Bukhari hadith is the perfect, immutable record of Muhammed's life and the life of his companions. Including his major decisions, teachings, personal life, and philosophy. (Here you won't get agreement from Shias, but you will get agreement from Sunnis, who by the way are the majority of Muslims)

In summary, my major points:

1.) It's highly unlikely the 10 people you met are representative of the millions of Muslims in the US, let alone the billions in the world.

2.) Violent expressions of extremism in Christianity are easily refuted by the teachings of Jesus. The story about "Let he who is without sin..." is the sort of the slam dunk on this.

3.) Violent expressions of "extremism" in Islam may not be performed by the majority of Muslims, but they are certainly supported by the mainstream majority. And the mainstream is the pool from which the bombers are culled.

4.) For those of you who don't know everything there is to know about Islam, you need to go to mosques (whatever mosque you want) to ask these questions. If you wanted to understand Catholicism, would you ask lapsed or nominal Catholics who you met in your dorm, or would you go to a Catholic church (on a non-holiday mass) where you would meet more serious, practicing Catholics and most importantly the Priests who are leading them?

Let me try to say this clearly: Bush is not mainstream. He is a radical representing a radical and violent minority of Americans who support this war. Backed by radical Christians in the United States who are extremely influential he has manufactured a cause for war and attacked a nation of Islamic people that did not attack us. Radical Christians in this country back him in this radical and violent enterprise that obviously is not supported by tradition Christian theology and has been inveighed against by Jesus Christ. Some of these radical Christians are now on this site attempting to justify their unjustifiable behaviour by citing the behavior of their radical and equally unjustified counterparts on the other side.

It will not fly.

[hoskins]

Let me try to say this clearly: Bush is not mainstream. He is a radical representing a radical and violent minority of Americans who support this war. Backed by radical Christians in the United States who are extremely influential he has manufactured a cause for war and attacked a nation of Islamic people that did not attack us. Radical Christians in this country back him in this radical and violent enterprise that obviously is not supported by tradition Christian theology and has been inveighed against by Jesus Christ. Some of these radical Christians are now on this site attempting to justify their unjustifiable behaviour by citing the behavior of their radical and equally unjustified counterparts on the other side.

It will not fly.

I think there are a couple of different sub-threads being woven together here.

Personally, I'm not worried about Christianity, because if you have a bunch of people following Jesus and his example, then in the long run that's going to be a good thing. Sure, there will be bad people along the way and mistakes made, but in the long run people following Jesus are probably going to head in the right general direction. The bad people are the outliers in that movement, logically, because Jesus is essentially good.

I'm not a Christian (yet) because I can't get my head around the trinity (yet). But I do think about it a lot.

[NavyDave]

Radical Christians??

Other than the corner bible thumpers in the south, I dont see the nation which is founded on judeo christian principles being the threat which is not the case with the godless and morally corrupt.

There is a video documentary on the suicide bomber and how the promise of sex in the after life is a primary driving for for these animals to kill themselves.

In other words while they are alive islam is so restrictive that the hormonally charged teens will blow themselves up and die virgins but then they wont have to follow islamic scripture and have over 50 virgin girls in the after life.

Unfortunately the virgins all go baaaaaa and dont run very fast

[hoskins]

Radical Christians??

Other than the corner bible thumpers in the south, I dont see the nation which is founded on judeo christian principles being the threat which is not the case with the godless and morally corrupt.

There is a video documentary on the suicide bomber and how the promise of sex in the after life is a primary driving for for these animals to kill themselves.

In other words while they are alive islam is so restrictive that the hormonally charged teens will blow themselves up and die virgins but then they wont have to follow islamic scripture and have over 50 virgin girls in the after life.

Unfortunately the virgins all go baaaaaa and dont run very fast

Thanks for bringing that issue up, the Islamic version of "heaven". There are lots of example like this of Muhammed's personal issues and desires becoming a part of his religion.

Another good questions for "moderate" muslims: Are you looking forward to 99 hot babes or 99 raisins when you die?

Also, little known fact about the virgins: Their virginity is actually restored after every encounter in heaven. Cool stuff, I suppose, if you're into that kind of thing.

[Crazyhorse1]

Radical Christians??

Other than the corner bible thumpers in the south, I dont see the nation which is founded on judeo christian principles being the threat which is not the case with the godless and morally corrupt.

There is a video documentary on the suicide bomber and how the promise of sex in the after life is a primary driving for for these animals to kill themselves.

In other words while they are alive islam is so restrictive that the hormonally charged teens will blow themselves up and die virgins but then they wont have to follow islamic scripture and have over 50 virgin girls in the after life.

Unfortunately the virgins all go baaaaaa and dont run very fast

To take one item at a time:

Radical Christians: Those who support torture and unjustified war

Bible thumpers from the South: Bush and the Christian coalition

Founding fathers: Deists, not Jews or Christians

Godless: Americans. Muslims believe in God and practice strict morals

Animals: Elitists. Anyone who believes other people are animals

People who believe Muslims believe suicide bombers don't have to follow Koran and get virgins in the afterlife: Fox News watchers, gullible

People who believe virgins go "baaaa": Experienced farm boys

[chomerics]

In summary, my major points:

1.) It's highly unlikely the 10 people you met are representative of the millions of Muslims in the US, let alone the billions in the world.

You were professing that Islam is a religion that preaches hate and the takeover of the world. I gave you a DIRECT example of why that is NOT correct, and how you were wrong. You stated the Islam in the US only preaches hate, and that is what the religion is based on, and I called BS on your hate filled rant, it's not that hard to comprehend.

2.) Violent expressions of extremism in Christianity are easily refuted by the teachings of Jesus. The story about "Let he who is without sin..." is the sort of the slam dunk on this.

They why are they violent and why do they use the bible as a basis of their teachings? Why is the bible constantly quoted in vitriolic hatred against homosexuals? Why does the KKK use the bible as their pulpet of hate? Have you ever read Leviticus? Sounds pretty much like a religion of hate if you focus on that little excerpt. In fact, the entire Old Testamant is about a vengeful God, do you not agree with this?

The New Testament is also based on the writings of one man, and my personal opinions into the matter are that it was a propaganda book put together to control the masses. It was used by Constantine to dupe a population into believing that Gos had directly spoken to him, and that he was to start the church. So to say that the bible is a book of peace is . . . well quite naieve in and of itself.

3.) Violent expressions of "extremism" in Islam may not be performed by the majority of Muslims, but they are certainly supported by the mainstream majority. And the mainstream is the pool from which the bombers are culled.

They are NOT supported by the mainstream. Do you know why this is not true? Because if it was true, then in Iraq over 8million people would be terrorists. The majority of the population would truly dispise Americans and they would truly hate us. This is not what you believe is it?

Are you telling me we are in Iraq and rebuilding a country even though the majority of their population completely despises us? Are you telling me the MAJORITY of people in Iraq support terrorists? I think a good number of the posters here as well as a majortiy of conservatives do not hols this POV.

4.) For those of you who don't know everything there is to know about Islam, you need to go to mosques (whatever mosque you want) to ask these questions. If you wanted to understand Catholicism, would you ask lapsed or nominal Catholics who you met in your dorm, or would you go to a Catholic church (on a non-holiday mass) where you would meet more serious, practicing Catholics and most importantly the Priests who are leading them?

No, I would ask a Catholic person their views, and I would see if your premise is true. Just like I asked Muslim posters on this board if you were completely full of crap, and their reply? your hate filled rants are do nothing more then expose a bigoted POV and a racial slant.

Here, why don't you go on a little "fact finding mission" on Christians, and ask your buddy Navy Dave what he thinks about homosexuals? Tell me this is how Jesus taught people to live their life.

[jbooma]

If any of you actually picked up and read the Koran you would wake up and realize that iit s not a religion of war. Heck if we wanted to get technical the entire Old Testament of the Bible is all about war and taking over land. Instead of watching the news listening to others why don't some of you do some of your own research and history lessons, you can be amazed what happens when the ignorant learns the truth :doh:

[chomerics]

If any of you actually picked up and read the Koran you would wake up and realize that iit s not a religion of war. Heck if we wanted to get technical the entire Old Testament of the Bible is all about war and taking over land. Instead of watching the news listening to others why don't some of you do some of your own research and history lessons, you can be amazed what happens when the ignorant learns the truth :doh:

See Booma we agree on some things

[hoskins]

Here, why don't you go on a little "fact finding mission" on Christians, and ask your buddy Navy Dave what he thinks about homosexuals? Tell me this is how Jesus taught people to live their life.

But why would I want to get anecdotal evidence from a NavyDave or any other people on a sports board when I could go to the source, the actual EXPERTS or leaders of a religion?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church which I happen to have with me today says that the practice of homosexuality is a mortal sin. It doesn't say that Catholics should kill homosexuals. In fact the Catechism states that the dealth penalty is categorically prohibited. So the catechism is fairly clear. Why would I go down the hallway and ask a catholic colleague when, with all due respect to my colleagues, most of them are not really religious and don't know much about their religion.

I'd he happy to do the research into other Christian churchs and what they think about how gay people should be treated.

Now why don't you show me an Islamic fiqh that DOESN'T call for the execution (by beheading or stoning) of someone who is accused of homosexuality. In the published fiqhs from all the various maddhab which I have studied, the only disagreement seems to be the method of execution.

Your Muslim friends are in serious denial or they don't know anything about the real Islam. Ask them to please tell me which maddhab they follow or which collection of fiqh they are reading that leads them to be so accepting of Jews, homosexuals, etc.

You show me a cohesive exegesis of the quran, a body of fiqh, and a member of the mainstream ulema who will teach that new exegesis, and I'll gladly convert back to Islam and join that ulema's cause. Finding a sincerely moderate strain of Islam is the holy grail. I tried in vain for 2 years of solid research. I have 400 pages of notes on this. I could not find a credible theological basis for "moderate" Islam. Have you?

(FYI: 10 friends and bunch of guys from a web forum generally would be considered a credible theological basis or a coherent exegesis)

[codeorama]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church which I happen to have with me today says that the practice of homosexuality is a mortal sin. It doesn't say that Catholics should kill homosexuals. In fact the Catechism states that the dealth penalty is categorically prohibited. So the catechism is fairly clear. Why would I go down the hallway and ask a catholic colleague when, with all due respect to my colleagues, most of them are not really religious and don't know much about their religion.

So you worship the Catechism, not a god, right?

[hoskins]

If any of you actually picked up and read the Koran you would wake up and realize that iit s not a religion of war. Heck if we wanted to get technical the entire Old Testament of the Bible is all about war and taking over land. Instead of watching the news listening to others why don't some of you do some of your own research and history lessons, you can be amazed what happens when the ignorant learns the truth :doh:

Is that right? Which translation would you recommend? And why?

And please explain to me how it is even possible to understand the quran without the hadith? How many Islamic scholars would agree with you that the quran is an independent document that can be understood without the hadith and the sira of the prophet?

A lot of people throw around the OT comparison. Well, first of all for Christians, Jesus represents a NEW covenant and therefore a new set of rules. If Islam had a new testament the world would be quite different.

Secondly, please cite for me in the Old Testament any verse which claims that God personally exists in Hell and personally tortures people in Hell whom he personally CHOSE not to guide.

Believe me, I would be MORE than happy to talk about any sura of the quran you want to talk about.

[hoskins]

So you worship the Catechism, not a god, right?

I'm not Catholic. Just an example of something I have in the office with me. I'm working on a website or maybe at this point a book about the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. So I have lots of religious book around, obviously mostly Muslim.

The catechism is of course the official guide of the teachings of the Catholic Church. My point is that the catechism is much better guide to what Catholics are taught and supposed to believe, versus, say, picking some random guy off a sports site.

[Air Force Cane]

Some on here have no clue what they are talking about. Currently, there are 19 major conflicts in the world in which at least one side is Muslim. Coincidence?

Muslims murder Russians for Chechnya

Muslims murder Jews for Palestine

Muslims murder Filipinos for their Mindanao empire

Muslims murder Americans for their Caliphate

Muslims murder Nigerians

Muslims murder Hindus over Kashmir

see a trend?

"We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve."

4:74 "Fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

<LI>4:76 "Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil."

<LI>4:91 "Take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant."

<LI>8:12 "I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger."

<LI>21:97 "Behold them, staring wide (in terror), the eyes of those who disbelieve!"

<LI>33:35-36 "Allah repulsed the disbelievers. ... He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.

<LI>59:2 "He it is Who hath caused those of the People of the Scripture who disbelieved to go forth from their homes unto the first exile. Ye deemed not that they would go forth, while they deemed that their strongholds would protect them from Allah. But Allah reached them from a place whereof they recked not, and cast terror in their hearts so that they ruined their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers. So learn a lesson, O ye who have eyes!"

59:13 "Ye are more awful as a fear in their bosoms than Allah.

[codeorama]

I'm not Catholic. Just an example of something I have in the office with me. I'm working on a website or maybe at this point a book about the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. So I have lots of religious book around, obviously mostly Muslim.

The catechism is of course the official guide of the teachings of the Catholic Church. My point is that the catechism is much better guide to what Catholics are taught and supposed to believe, versus, say, picking some random guy off a sports site.

My point was that someone other than God wrote that and you (or not you, anyone) is basing their faith in that author. So whomever wrote the book says that the death penalty is wrong and they may give their reasons etc... but you have to ask yourself, are they being honest or do they have an agenda. Of course, man would never use religion as a means of manipulation... :laugh: :laugh:

[hoskins]

I'm not Catholic. Just an example of something I have in the office with me. I'm working on a website or maybe at this point a book about the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. So I have lots of religious book around, obviously mostly Muslim.

The catechism is of course the official guide of the teachings of the Catholic Church. My point is that the catechism is much better guide to what Catholics are taught and supposed to believe, versus, say, picking some random guy off a sports site.

Bad form to follow up my own post, but I have multiple translations of the quran on my desk including ones done my classical orientalists and modern muslims. I also have 2 different translations of the full volumes of Bukhari. I have about two bookshelves full of Sharia and Fiqh from Sunnis and Shias. I also have the standard set of literature given to Imams in the United States and other countries when they start a new mosque.

Interspersed among those are a number of different bibles, volumes of Talmud, etc.

I would love to talk about a point by point discussion of moral "equivalence" between Christianity and Islam.

It's still amuses me that we're talking about this on a Redskins site. But hey, you got to fight ignorance wherever you find it. (With all due respect to those people who have met a DOUBLE digit number of western Muslims and therefore understand everything there is to know. Obviously my site or book will be of no use to them)

[hoskins]

My point was that someone other than God wrote that and you (or not you, anyone) is basing their faith in that author. So whomever wrote the book says that the death penalty is wrong and they may give their reasons etc... but you have to ask yourself, are they being honest or do they have an agenda. Of course, man would never use religion as a means of manipulation... :laugh: :laugh:

Right, which is why I'm NOT a catholic. But if I were going to make claims about what the catholic church teaches on a particular subject, of course I would go to the source. It's just solid research technique, that's all.

[jbooma]

A lot of people throw around the OT comparison. Well, first of all for Christians, Jesus represents a NEW covenant and therefore a new set of rules. If Islam had a new testament the world would be quite different.

The OT is the most important piece of literature in our history this is where the 3 major religions were born. Judaism, Christian, and Muslim all come from the OT. In this there are many places where God kills, destroys cities, and even kings are sleeping with kids, even homosexuals, it is all in there.

I love it how people only use the NT when talking about the churches, when the history is in the OT. I am catholic and the reason our church is against everything is because they are slow to change. They were forced to accept birth control what they call family planning, and they will be forced to accept all the changes we see in the world today. All of these books were written thousands of years ago, of course in time they should change but haven't because those who have had the scriptures have had the power.

Jesus even says love everyone, to me everyone is everyone. People need to stop taking the bible so literally and take the meaning of the stories, that is where the truth lies. Not in some mulitple translations that were done based on who a King wanted to rule.

[tinob]

I am lost and don't understand the point of this post at all. You don't actually think that Islam in its true form (not this radical/violent movement) is violent? You are talking about a religion that is in every country in the world and has over a billion followers. The reason people say, "it's a religion of peace", is because it is - like all major religions......

I don't understand the point of this post either

[stevenaa]

The OT is the most important piece of literature in our history this is where the 3 major religions were born. Judaism, Christian, and Muslim all come from the OT. In this there are many places where God kills, destroys cities, and even kings are sleeping with kids, even homosexuals, it is all in there.

I love it how people only use the NT when talking about the churches, when the history is in the OT. I am catholic and the reason our church is against everything is because they are slow to change. They were forced to accept birth control what they call family planning, and they will be forced to accept all the changes we see in the world today. All of these books were written thousands of years ago, of course in time they should change but haven't because those who have had the scriptures have had the power.

Jesus even says love everyone, to me everyone is everyone. People need to stop taking the bible so literally and take the meaning of the stories, that is where the truth lies. Not in some mulitple translations that were done based on who a King wanted to rule.

You can't just take the pieces of the bible that suit you, and disregard the rest. Christians don't ignore the Old Testament. But it is not our "law". The NT is a new covenant between man and God. Yes Jesus preached to love everyone. But loving them doesn't mean being acceptant and tollerant of their sins. That is a very different thing.