Okay, I think I got this Islam thing figured out.

[jbooma]

You can't just take the pieces of the bible that suit you, and disregard the rest. Christians don't ignore the Old Testament. But it is not our "law". The NT is a new covenant between man and God. Yes Jesus preached to love everyone. But loving them doesn't mean being acceptant and tollerant of their sins. That is a very different thing.

That is what many do though, and that is the problem.

For example in the translation from Italian to I believe english in the first testament they took the word "servant" and it ended up having two different meanings. This is a big issue in the christian churches that accept woman as priests and others that are against it, depending on how you use that one word.

our "law" is the 10 commandments, that is the "law".

[hoskins]

I don't understand the point of this post either

OK, let me try to be more clear about what I'm trying to say. I haven't done a good job on this thread. Partly because I started this with a good head of steam from that Giants loss. I'm over that now, so I apologize and I'll try to be more clear.

Just take this very simple example. Suppose you met 10 catholics who are personally pro-choice. And suppose I came to you and said Catholicism prohibits abortion. You can say "no way. I know 10 catholics and they all support choice. So how can you say Catholicism prohibits abortion".

The answer is it doesn't matter what a handful of Catholics believe. The religion, as taught by the Roman Catholic Church prohibits abortion. Proof of that can be found in the catechism and in every pulpit of every catholic church in the world.

Now Islam does not of course have a heirarchical clergy or a Pope. But what Islam does have is a quran, essential hadith, the sira of the prophet and a collection of fiqh from various maddhab (schools). And that whole collection of ideas and thoughts are the Islamic faith. You can't just take the quran alone, because for instance if you just take the quran alone, why do Muslims pray 5 times a day? Nowhere in the quran does it say pray 5 times a day. In fact, Muslims have a very particular way of praying, which is almost identical no matter where in the world you go. And that's not in the quran either. So that's just one example of how Islam goes far beyond the quran itself.

So why are there moderate muslims? Well, I'll give you an example. My grandparents were moderate muslims. I remember my grandmother teaching me the golden rule and she said Allah had told us that. So it turns out the golden rule isn't anywhere in the quran or anywhere else in Islam. She probably, bless her heart, picked that up in a Christian missionary school that she went to as a child.

The truth is she had never read the quran in her language. And she knew maybe 10 hadith stories that she talked about all the time. Back then the quran was read and recited in Arabic only. So she had no idea what Islam teaches. And in mosques when we were children, Imams tended to talk about fairly mundane things like the guy down the street who pickpocketed someone or whatever. And that was because Imams when I was a child were pretty uneducated about Islam, too, frankly.

Now enter the information age... Muslims around the world have ready access to multiple translations of the quran and MOST IMPORTANTLY, good translations of the actual life and teachings of Muhammed. And so starting in the madrassas, most of which are Saudi funded, Imams started becoming extremely educated in Islam. And in particular they started becoming more in tune with the actual life of Muhammed. And that sort of Islamic renaissance, if you will, has continued to spread through the 80s and 90s to the point now that if you go to a small mosque in Iowa, you'll be surprised how well Imams know the real Islam. They even have web databases with fiqh and fatwas that they can look up if their followers have a question they can't answer.

And so the REAL Islam has been rediscovered and is spread throughout the world. If you have any doubt about the fidelity with which Muslims want to emulate Muhammed, look at how many Muslims wear beards now, compared to say in the 70s. Or look at how many Muslim women cover their hair or whole bodies. Again, that is something Muhammed required of his own wives, not something that is made clear in the quran. (There is an oblique reference to it, but it's a reference to the hadith. In fact, interesting sidenote, there are many references and allusions in the quran to the hadith. Which is another clue that the quran is not meaningful unless you have the hadith also)

Now there are still pockets of good people out there who, because they are good people, fail to completely emulate the prophet. Which is good because Muhammed clearly espoused violence, slavery (including sexual slavery), expansion of the Islamic empire through war, etc. Muhammed made absolutely NO distinction between belief in God and the propogation of his empire. I challenge anyone to find me evidence to the contrary.

But the moderate Muslims have one very serious problem. They have no theological basis for their belief. Their religion is essentially an invention, it is NOT the religion and the philosophy taught by Muhammed. In my experience their beliefs are a mix of the best few phrases culled from Islam, mixed with their own personal survival instinct, their inherent compassion as human beings, and their exposure to the West. But it's ultimately a personal creation, not the real documented religion. And not the religion taught by Imams.

But these "moderate" Muslims, by raising their children Muslim, contributing to questionable charities, and continuing to trumpet Muhammed as a role model, ultimately provide the material support for the jihad movement. Because the jihad movement is absolutely a core part of the REAL Islam. Which is why moderate Muslims can never win a debate with Osama bin Laden or his supporters, for instance. If you read his writings, he backs everything up with actual teachings not just from the quran, but also the hadith and also all the various fiqh and scholarly work from 1400 years of Islam.

Think about it, there are scholars in the history of Islam who have devoted their ENTIRE lives to studying Islam. And WITHOUT EXCEPTION, every single Islamic scholar that I have ever read espouses the REAL Islam that some people want to call "Islamism" or the radical fringe. Why is that? I spent 2 years trying to come up with a thesis to disprove Bin Laden. And every book I read by a serious Islamic scholar supported his beliefs. That was an earth-shattering realization for me.

And so I hope you understand what I mean when I say the REAL Islam is violent, destructive, and a threat to civilization. I define the REAL Islam as the Islam taught by Muhammed himself as chronicled in the quran, hadith, sira, and the fiqh of those closest to him and those who have studied him the most. And that REAL Islam is on the rise .

[Sarge]

Some on here have no clue what they are talking about. Currently, there are 19 major conflicts in the world in which at least one side is Muslim. Coincidence?

Muslims murder Russians for Chechnya

Muslims murder Jews for Palestine

Muslims murder Filipinos for their Mindanao empire

Muslims murder Americans for their Caliphate

Muslims murder Nigerians

Muslims murder Hindus over Kashmir

see a trend?

"We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve."

4:74 "Fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

<LI>4:76 "Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil."

<LI>4:91 "Take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant."

<LI>8:12 "I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger."

<LI>21:97 "Behold them, staring wide (in terror), the eyes of those who disbelieve!"

<LI>33:35-36 "Allah repulsed the disbelievers. ... He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.

<LI>59:2 "He it is Who hath caused those of the People of the Scripture who disbelieved to go forth from their homes unto the first exile. Ye deemed not that they would go forth, while they deemed that their strongholds would protect them from Allah. But Allah reached them from a place whereof they recked not, and cast terror in their hearts so that they ruined their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers. So learn a lesson, O ye who have eyes!"

59:13 "Ye are more awful as a fear in their bosoms than Allah.

Careful dude. I got a vacation from this site for posting some the koran. Just letting you know

[chomerics]

But why would I want to get anecdotal evidence from a NavyDave or any other people on a sports board when I could go to the source, the actual EXPERTS or leaders of a religion?

So reverend Fred Phelps, the leader of the Wastboro Baptist Church is not a leader? Besides who said I go to Navy Dave for my ideas on the church, I simply stated what he believes in, and well as a few others.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church which I happen to have with me today says that the practice of homosexuality is a mortal sin. It doesn't say that Catholics should kill homosexuals. In fact the Catechism states that the dealth penalty is categorically prohibited.

Yes it does, kind of makes you scratch your head then as to why the ten commandments belong in a courthouse where the death penalty is legal doesn't it. I also never said the church advocated the killing of homosexuals.

Now why don't you show me an Islamic fiqh that DOESN'T call for the execution (by beheading or stoning) of someone who is accused of homosexuality. In the published fiqhs from all the various maddhab which I have studied, the only disagreement seems to be the method of execution.

Well, apparently you have not been exposed to the Hanafite school which teaches that no physical punishment is warrented.

"According to a pamphlet produced by Al-Fatiha, there is a consensus among Islamic scholars that all humans are naturally heterosexual. Homosexuality is seen by scholars to be a sinful and perverted deviation from the norm. All Islamic schools of thought and jurisprudence consider gay acts to be unlawful. They differ in terms of penalty: The Hanafite school (currently seen mainly in South and Eastern Asia) teaches that no physical punishment is warranted.

Game over, you lost.

Your Muslim friends are in serious denial or they don't know anything about the real Islam. Ask them to please tell me which maddhab they follow or which collection of fiqh they are reading that leads them to be so accepting of Jews, homosexuals, etc.

You show me a cohesive exegesis of the quran, a body of fiqh, and a member of the mainstream ulema who will teach that new exegesis, and I'll gladly convert back to Islam and join that ulema's cause. Finding a sincerely moderate strain of Islam is the holy grail. I tried in vain for 2 years of solid research. I have 400 pages of notes on this. I could not find a credible theological basis for "moderate" Islam. Have you?

Yes, and it took me an entire 2 minute search on google. Maybe you are not as adept as your fellow muslim brothers in the ways of the meta-search engine called google, we can't blame you for that now can we.

By the way, do you not think there is a glaring contradiction in Islam and homosexuality? I mean if Allah is supposed to be all living in the animal kingdon, and homosexuality is found everywhere in the animal kingdon, then wouldn't Allah be accepting to homosexuality?

[BlueTalon]

When the towers fell, Muslims in the Middle East danced in the streets. When four contractors were killed in Fallujah, their bodies were strung up and there was dancing in the streets. When hapless victims were captured and eventually beheaded, Al Jezeera faithfully put it on the web. Never mind the rape rooms and prisons and shredders and torture chambers of the Saddam regime -- our armed forces are finding torture facilities used by militant Islamists long after Saddam's regime fell.

Nobody would say that all Muslims are bad or evil people. But there seems to be a higher percentage of them who will cheer the deaths of innocents, than in other religions. And there are way too many of them who willingly participate in acts that can only be described as evil.

[hoskins]

Well, apparently you have not been exposed to the Hanafite school which teaches that no physical punishment is warrented.

Interesting, can I get a reference on that? I have fatwas from Hanafite scholars in my notes that DO recommend death for practicing homosexuals.

I'd appreciate a link. I'm not being sarcastic, I want to make sure I get the facts right before I publish this thing.

[hoskins]

So Chomerics, the only references I can find on google about the Hanafis not recommending the death penalty for homosexuals comes from a quote from an al-fatiha pamphlet, that seems to also have been picked up by another Muslim gay and lesbian organization.

Al-Fatiha, as you know, is a gay and lesbian organization for Muslims. They aren't exactly mainstream in the Muslim world.

If you find the original source where Al-Fatiha got this from, I'd certainly appreciate it. The Hanafites are relatively literalist about all the scriptures. They tend to take liberties with things that aren't explicitly spelled out in the other literature, so it's possible.

But again, my notes from Hanafite sources contradict what al-Fatiha is saying. And as you know, there are volumes of fatwas about homosexuality and even a number of debates about methods of execution.

[hoskins]

So reverend Fred Phelps, the leader of the Wastboro Baptist Church is not a leader? Besides who said I go to Navy Dave for my ideas on the church, I simply stated what he believes in, and well as a few others.

So you're actually the one who asked me to ask NavyDave. That was my response to your suggestion.

It's sort of hard to defend Islam by criticizing Christian churches. But let me know when the Westboro Baptist Church actually starts executing gay people. Something tells me there will be MANY other Christians who will be the first to demand an end to that.

How many Muslims in this country or anywhere else do you see protesting actual executions of gay people that happen every week in other countries?

[hoskins]

Yes, and it took me an entire 2 minute search on google. Maybe you are not as adept as your fellow muslim brothers in the ways of the meta-search engine called google, we can't blame you for that now can we.

what Quranic exegesis, BODY of fiqh AND mainstream Ulema do your "moderate" friends base their "moderate" Islam on? So far you have a quote from a gay and lesbian organization pamphlet. That was a start, although I am going to have to investigate that and possible dispute it. I'll have to contact al-fatiha myself.

But where is the rest of the moderate Fiqh, and the literature to back it up, and the mainstream Ulema to guide it.

Or is it true that your "moderate" friends are just ignoring the mainstream Ulema?

[chomerics]

When the towers fell, Muslims in the Middle East danced in the streets. When four contractors were killed in Fallujah, their bodies were strung up and there was dancing in the streets. When hapless victims were captured and eventually beheaded, Al Jezeera faithfully put it on the web. Never mind the rape rooms and prisons and shredders and torture chambers of the Saddam regime -- our armed forces are finding torture facilities used by militant Islamists long after Saddam's regime fell.

And I've seen video footage of our soldiers doing the exact same thing at the deaths of Muslims. That's not meant to be a disparraging remark on our soldiers, but to show you how we are guilty of doing the exact same thing.

Now forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't the bit of the Palestenians cheering taken from another event ans POSED as they were cheering for 9-11? I remember hearing that, but I never looked into it, maybe somebody here knows the answer.

[hoskins]

Now forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't the bit of the Palestenians cheering taken from another event ans POSED as they were cheering for 9-11? I remember hearing that, but I never looked into it, maybe somebody here knows the answer.

So what happened was CNN aired some footage that originated with one of the wire services. I believe it was Reuters. In any case, it wasn't CNN who actually produced the video. The wire service included a story that was written by a correspondent on 9/11, but the video was stock footage of Palestinians celebrating. The written wire story did however say that the reporter witnessed people celebrating on 9/11. And other news sources, including official Palestinian Television, showed other celebration video that WAS taken in Gaza on 9/11.

I was in London that day and other Muslims were calling me like we had won the Superbowl or something. It was definitely a joyous day for the Muslim community. It wasn't until 2 days later that I found out that one of my cousins had been on one of those planes (NOT as a hijacker).

I also remember at Jummah prayers the next day people started to realize the implications of a war against the United States and that's when people started to speculate that maybe Mossad had done 9/11. And for the next several months of course that became the prevailing theory.

Chomerics and others, I really have spent too much time on this thread. I need to get back to writing. I have new inspiration to get my work published. And, unfortunately, I have a part time job to pay bills and pay for those damned skins tickets.

I will call or email al-fatiha. I have a contact there. If you see a footnote on my site or my book, you'll know where it came from. It's not my intention to make the whole world agree with me. Chomerics, for instance, already knows everything there is to know about Islam, and so my work will be of no use to him. But the rest of you maybe will get some food for thought.

See you guys back in the stadium section. Don't we have a game coming up?

[Crazyhorse1]

So you're actually the one who asked me to ask NavyDave. That was my response to your suggestion.

It's sort of hard to defend Islam by criticizing Christian churches. But let me know when the Westboro Baptist Church actually starts executing gay people. Something tells me there will be MANY other Christians who will be the first to demand an end to that.

How many Muslims in this country or anywhere else do you see protesting actual executions of gay people that happen every week in other countries?

I know a lot of Christian groups that condemn gays to eternal fire...which is worse?

[alaadin123]

This thread could go on and on but I personally won't engage in "arguing with any non-muslims who want to receive Islam in a negative manner. I encourage you to pick up a book and read it and find out what is Islam and what do the people who follow it believe. Don't read a book on Islam written by someone who hates the religion, you wouldn't ask someone who has never been muslim to explain to you what it is, go straight to the source, Islam has only 2 things it goes by in detemining how the religion goes. 1. Al-Qur'an 2. Sunnah of Muhammad(pbuh).

Nothing else....so study (not just read it , but study it )those 2 things and you will have valid information on understanding Islam

[Crazyhorse1]

no one said you get a free pass. the bible says to repent daily and confess your sins.

Check out the old testament. You'll see that God frequently commands his people to put their enemies to death and sell the wives and children of their enemies into slavery. I also recall God attacking and almost killing Moses in the desert because Moses' son still had his ********. O yeah, didn't I read somewhere in the Bible that God fired a whole city as punishment for sodomy? I wish you half wits would stop chattering on about the superior morality of your religion and heritage. It's total, absolute nonsense, and you're just embarassing yourselves. You have a religion that has repeatedly embraced extreme violence both in fact and as creed. You cannot escape the truth except perhaps by your own deaths or self-performed coathanger lobotomies, a route many of you seem to have taken.

[70th Week]

Jesus says that when he returns that EVERY knee will bow and tongue confess that he is the son of God. And when he destroyed sodom that was for thier sins.You arent going to live any old way you want to and get by.And the writing of the old test. was the journey that it took to bring Jesus into the world.All that stuff happened for a reason.

[Sarge]

I know a lot of Christian groups that condemn gays to eternal fire...which is worse?

Christian groups don't do that. They only pass on the word of God, which most of you leftover 60's hippies now deem "hate speech". Man, you better hope your right when your day comes.

But as for judgement, only God can gives that out. It says right there in Romans, "Man shall not lie with man". There are a few other verses about being homo, I just can't remember them off the top of my head.

But again, it's not Christian groups that are going to send someone to hell for degenerate behavior, but God. I know the concept of "punishment" is foreign to you "anything goes, if it feels good do it" leftists, but it still does exist in some quarters.

Now you want to talk about groups that are "on earth" judge, jury and executioners. AS hoskins said, muslims are a lot more adept at that than any Christian group you'll find.

[nelms]

And I've seen video footage of our soldiers doing the exact same thing at the deaths of Muslims. That's not meant to be a disparraging remark on our soldiers, but to show you how we are guilty of doing the exact same thing.

Now forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't the bit of the Palestenians cheering taken from another event ans POSED as they were cheering for 9-11? I remember hearing that, but I never looked into it, maybe somebody here knows the answer.

I haven't seen the video footage of our soldiers doing this, but let's assume they did. How is that exactly the same thing? The Palestinians were celebrating the deaths of over 3,000 innocent civilians. Our soldiers are fighting terrorists on the battefield. They're not targeting civilians or celebrating the deaths of innocents. Trying to make your comparison is an insult to our military.

[Crazyhorse1]

I haven't seen the video footage of our soldiers doing this, but let's assume they did. How is that exactly the same thing? The Palestinians were celebrating the deaths of over 3,000 innocent civilians. Our soldiers are fighting terrorists on the battefield. They're not targeting civilians or celebrating the deaths of innocents. Trying to make your comparison is an insult to our military.

Anybody here seen the photos from Abu Ghraib or the Calley massacre in Nam? Wait till you see the new Abu Ghraib photos. They'll warm your hearts.

The massacres in the Bible were theoretically ordered by God but carried out by his people; is that not an exact parallel with what theoretically happens on the Muslim side.

You cannot excape responsibily for murder by saying God ordered you to do it.

If you can, so can Muslims and you have no case against them for anything they're done. Sorry Sarge, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Tarhog]

Check out the old testament. You'll see that God frequently commands his people to put their enemies to death and sell the wives and children of their enemies into slavery. I also recall God attacking and almost killing Moses in the desert because Moses' son still had his ********. O yeah, didn't I read somewhere in the Bible that God fired a whole city as punishment for sodomy? I wish you half wits would stop chattering on about the superior morality of your religion and heritage. It's total, absolute nonsense, and you're just embarassing yourselves. You have a religion that has repeatedly embraced extreme violence both in fact and as creed. You cannot escape the truth except perhaps by your own deaths or self-performed coathanger lobotomies, a route many of you seem to have taken.

I understand religious beliefs bring out emotional responses, but please take it down several notches.

Thanks.

[nelms]

Check out the old testament. You'll see that God frequently commands his people to put their enemies to death and sell the wives and children of their enemies into slavery. I also recall God attacking and almost killing Moses in the desert because Moses' son still had his ********. O yeah, didn't I read somewhere in the Bible that God fired a whole city as punishment for sodomy? I wish you half wits would stop chattering on about the superior morality of your religion and heritage. It's total, absolute nonsense, and you're just embarassing yourselves. You have a religion that has repeatedly embraced extreme violence both in fact and as creed. You cannot escape the truth except perhaps by your own deaths or self-performed coathanger lobotomies, a route many of you seem to have taken.

That's harsh dude.

[chomerics]

I haven't seen the video footage of our soldiers doing this, but let's assume they did. How is that exactly the same thing? The Palestinians were celebrating the deaths of over 3,000 innocent civilians. Our soldiers are fighting terrorists on the battefield. They're not targeting civilians or celebrating the deaths of innocents. Trying to make your comparison is an insult to our military.

It comes in showing joy over others suffering. It doesn't have to be as sensationalistic as 9-11, and it was not meant as an attack against the military, but I have seen at least three videos where the deaths of Muslims were celebrated by our soldiers. I know they are not celebrating for the same reasons, but it can definately be construed as such, and people who are on the other end of the stick can look at the same way we viewed the palestenians.

BTW, does anyone have a link (hoskins) on what happened with the video?

I also do not buy one minute that the "majority" of muslims were celebrating like it was the superbowl. I believe that people of ANY and ALL religions do not like to see the suffering of others. That's not to say they don't have their wackos, but I still like to think the majority of all religions are peaceful. . . after all, that is what religion is about right?

[nelms]

It comes in showing joy over others suffering. It doesn't have to be as sensationalistic as 9-11, and it was not meant as an attack against the military, but I have seen at least three videos where the deaths of Muslims were celebrated by our soldiers. I know they are not celebrating for the same reasons, but it can definately be construed as such, and people who are on the other end of the stick can look at the same way we viewed the palestenians.

BTW, does anyone have a link (hoskins) on what happened with the video?

I also do not buy one minute that the "majority" of muslims were celebrating like it was the superbowl. I believe that people of ANY and ALL religions do not like to see the suffering of others. That's not to say they don't have their wackos, but I still like to think the majority of all religions are peaceful. . . after all, that is what religion is about right?

It is not the death of Muslims they are celebrating, it is the death of EVIL, SICK TERRORISTS. I would think peaceful Muslims would be offended to call these sick murderers Muslims. We're talking about people that have INTENTIONALLY blown up Iraqi children as our soldiers passed out candy to them. These sickos actually waited until the gathering of children grew to a large enough size so that they could maximize the number of deaths. How you can compare us eliminating this human waste to what they have done to innocent Americans and Iraqis is beyond me.

[chomerics]

It is not the death of Muslims they are celebrating, it is the death of EVIL, SICK TERRORISTS.

What did I just post? Did you not read what I just said? I KNOW this, and you KNOW this, but THEY do no know this. You ask me how I could compare things, and I stated that you have to look at the situation from the opinion of a Muslim from Iraq. Would you think that the soldiers were celebrating the killings of evil if it was your brother? What about your father? Would you still think the way you do if you were on the otherside?

I would think peaceful Muslims would be offended to call these sick murderers Muslims.

They are. The overwelming majority of Muslims did not "celebrate" 9-11 as hoskins professes, they were DEEPLY OFFENDED. Ask some of the Muslims here on ES what they thought about 9-11 and if they "celebrated", in fact ask ANY Muslim in the US if they "celebrated" 9-11.

We're talking about people that have INTENTIONALLY blown up Iraqi children as our soldiers passed out candy to them. These sickos actually waited until the gathering of children grew to a large enough size so that they could maximize the number of deaths. How you can compare us eliminating this human waste to what they have done to innocent Americans and Iraqis is beyond me.

You just don't get it Nelms. You have to look at the problem from the otherside and project yourself through THEIR eyes. What would you think of the US military if we killed your brothers? What would you think if they came into your house, took your eldest son with a bag over his head, and took every male in the house. Then you turn on the TV and you see your neighbour naked with a wire strapped to his balls.

I by NO MEANS condone any terrorist action, but I can see how an ordinary Muslim would look at the US soldiers as we look at the Palestenians. That was your initial question, and I gave you a pretty straight forward answer.

:2cents:

[nelms]

What did I just post? Did you not read what I just said? I KNOW this, and you KNOW this, but THEY do no know this. You ask me how I could compare things, and I stated that you have to look at the situation from the opinion of a Muslim from Iraq. Would you think that the soldiers were celebrating the killings of evil if it was your brother? What about your father? Would you still think the way you do if you were on the otherside?

They are. The overwelming majority of Muslims did not "celebrate" 9-11 as hoskins professes, they were DEEPLY OFFENDED. Ask some of the Muslims here on ES what they thought about 9-11 and if they "celebrated", in fact ask ANY Muslim in the US if they "celebrated" 9-11.

You just don't get it Nelms. You have to look at the problem from the otherside and project yourself through THEIR eyes. What would you think of the US military if we killed your brothers? What would you think if we came into your house, took your eldest son with a bag over his head, and took every male in the house. Then you turn on the TV and you see your neighbour naked with a wire strapped to his balls.

I by NO MEANS condone any terrorist action, but I can see how an ordinary Muslim would look at the US soldiers as we look at the Palestenians.

:2cents:

So, you're saying we should be sensitive to the families of terrorists and murderers. That is what you just said, so don't try to spin it any other way. This is a war we are fighting against some nasty, nasty people. We aren't playing tiddley winks in the streets of Baghdad. If WWII was fought according to your views, we'd all be speaking German or Japanese or both. Zieg Heil!

[chomerics]

So, you're saying we should be sensitive to the families of terrorists and murderers. That is what you just said, so don't try to spin it any other way. This is a war we are fighting against some nasty, nasty people. We aren't playing tiddley winks in the streets of Baghdad. If WWII was fought according to your views, we'd all be speaking German or Japanese or both. Zieg Heil!

Did I say that???

You see, here is the fundamental difference between the way we view the world. In your eyes, you can not understand how anyone could THINK outside of your tiny little box. It is irrational thought like yours that got us into the mess in Iraq to begin with.

In order to win a war, you have to understand your enemy, and you haven't the slightest inkling on how the enemy thinks. Well, I will let you in on a little secret, the enemy thinks EXACTLY like you do. But then again that makes sense seeing how both your side and the terrorists are so closely tied ideologically.

This is when the problem arises. You get one side of an argument who lacks the ability to see how the enemy thinks, because they are blinded by their own hate filled vengeful eyes. The other side thinks the exact same way, and because both sides are basically identitical in terms of ideological beliefs, they but heads and you have war.

People like yourself lack the foresight and projection ability to understand that we are playing right into the enemies hands. You lack the understanding of basic human sociological instincts, so you fail to see how this war is turning moderate people into ones that want to join with Al Qaeda. Does it suprise you that Al Qaeda is NOW running terrorist camps in Iraq? It doesn't suprise me, because I understand how they think, I know how they operate and I know that we are playing directly into their hands. Unfortunately for our country, our president and his advisors are just like you, they do not understand the complexities of this war, and they are no where near equiped to handle the daunting task of eliminating terrorism. All they have done is poured gasoline on the fire.