Okay, I think I got this Islam thing figured out.

[DeanCollins]

Well, it seems that Christianity has progressed beyond the abortion-clinic bombings, and clearly the Christian fanatics now represent a FAR, FAR smaller percentage of their religion, than the fanatics that represent Islam.

It's easy to generalize post 9-11. But it is omious to think that the majority of a billion people could have quietly (or not so quietly) smirked while the towers were comming down.

I was surprised that a considerable number of catholic americans (even priests) that I talked to supported the IRA (now a political party) during their terrorist era. This catholic did not.

[dfitzo53]

That's the problem. You'll be hard pressed to find Islam in its "true form", epecially in the Middle East. Radical Islam is prevelant in the Middle East, but most people are scared to say it because this country has become too PC. I'm anti-PC, so I don't give a sh!t.

The emphasis in the above quote is mine. I acknowledge that the focus of your statement is clearly on the Middle East. However, the passage I quoted also implies, whether intentionally or not, that it is difficult to find peaceful Muslims anywhere, least of all the Middle East. Do you understand the distinction I'm drawing?

If you had said "You'll be hard pressed to find Islam in its 'true form' in the Middle East." I'd have to disagree with you, but there would be no questioning that we are talking only about the Middle East.

If that simply isn't what you meant then I'm willing to let it go at that. These threads don't tend to get anywhere anyway.

[codeorama]

The emphasis in the above quote is mine. I acknowledge that the focus of your statement is clearly on the Middle East. However, the passage I quoted also implies, whether intentionally or not, that it is difficult to find peaceful Muslims anywhere, least of all the Middle East. Do you understand the distinction I'm drawing?

If you had said "You'll be hard pressed to find Islam in its 'true form' in the Middle East." I'd have to disagree with you, but there would be no questioning that we are talking only about the Middle East.

If that simply isn't what you meant then I'm willing to let it go at that. These threads don't tend to get anywhere anyway.

Great point, exactly the way I understood his post as well.

[NavyDave]

So let’s look at this for a minute. There are roughly 1.5 billion Muslims in the world out of a total population of roughly 6.5 billion (23% of the WHOLE WORLDS POPULATION!). So you are saying that radical Islam is “prevalent” in the Islamic world. That means that you are claiming that somewhere around 1 billion people are radical fundamentalists?? Fundamentalism is an ENORMOUS problem facing Islam – but to clam that is it prevalent out of a population of 1.5 billion is ignorant.

If a sucker is born every minute then of course there would be 1.5 billion of them.

Heck a billion people actually like Soccer for christ sakes.

[codeorama]

WTF did I just say? You obviously can read, but can't interpret. I said, once again, Radical Islam is prevelant in the Middle East. Do I have a problem with peaceful, law abiding Muslims? No. That goes for Christians, Jews, whoever. I don't care what religion they are. As long as they aren't trying to chop off my head or blow me up.

You also said you can't find peaceful Muslims anywhere. Difitzo read your post the same way I did, obviously it's not just me. You need to figure out WTF you said for yourself.

[Crazyhorse1]

I've been wondering lately where all the peaceful Christians are. I saw the figure 100,000 Iraq civilians dead being thrown around on TV against yesterday (even though we claim to have killed only 30 thousand or so), and read that our leader is fighting to continue his policy of torturing detainees at Gitmo and in detentions centers in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as send prisoners to countries that torture and kill them. I am also aware that this leader has widespread support among Christians in the United States. As a result of this, I have 3 words: Pot...kettle...black.

[Kilmer17]

The problem IMHO, is twofold.

1- perception of numbers. The perception is that there is a huge number of vicious death-to-America type Muslims preaching hatred and violence. Doesnt matter if it's true or not, that's the perception.

2- near silence from the true majority. While I have seen very positive steps being taken by "mainstream" Muslim groups over the past year, they are still too quiet and invisible at times. IE- Every non-hate Muslim group should have been marching in protest after the Iranian nutjob called for Israels destruction this month.

Other Religions have their share of hatefilled nutjobs, but they are regularly denounced by the "mainstream" representatives of those religions. And the perception is that they are small fringe groups.

[codeorama]

The problem IMHO, is twofold.

1- perception of numbers. The perception is that there is a huge number of vicious death-to-America type Muslims preaching hatred and violence. Doesnt matter if it's true or not, that's the perception.

2- near silence from the true majority. While I have seen very positive steps being taken by "mainstream" Muslim groups over the past year, they are still too quiet and invisible at times. IE- Every non-hate Muslim group should have been marching in protest after the Iranian nutjob called for Israels destruction this month.

Other Religions have their share of hatefilled nutjobs, but they are regularly denounced by the "mainstream" representatives of those religions. And the perception is that they are small fringe groups.

Great post. I DO agree that the majority of muslims should step up and make it clear to those in doubt that the terrorists do not represent their religion.

Just to add, the muslims I do personally know indicated that in their mind, it's apples and oranges, they don't view the middle east the same as the US and the way of life is different etc...

[Crazyhorse1]

The problem IMHO, is twofold.

1- perception of numbers. The perception is that there is a huge number of vicious death-to-America type Muslims preaching hatred and violence. Doesnt matter if it's true or not, that's the perception.

2- near silence from the true majority. While I have seen very positive steps being taken by "mainstream" Muslim groups over the past year, they are still too quiet and invisible at times. IE- Every non-hate Muslim group should have been marching in protest after the Iranian nutjob called for Israels destruction this month.

Other Religions have their share of hatefilled nutjobs, but they are regularly denounced by the "mainstream" representatives of those religions. And the perception is that they are small fringe groups.

I disagree that Christianty's hatefilled nutjobs constitute only a "fringe" group. I also assert that the group of Christian nutjubs is denounced only by relatively powerless liberals in hunched and grim enclaves.

[Kilmer17]

I disagree that Christianty's hatefilled nutjobs constitute only a "fringe" group and that the group is denounced regularly by anyone except relatively powerless liberals in hunched and grim enclaves.

My point isnt whether they are or are not fringe groups (I'll happily argue that in a different area though). My point is that the PERCEPTION is that they are.

The KKK is as close to an Al Queda type group I can come up with. And they are regularly denounced by mainstream Christians on both sides of the spectrum.

[Sarge]

Two threads sort of blending together here, so I'll post this article about the collective silence from the muslim community in both

http://hnn.us/articles/17589.html

Selective Muslim Silence

By Judith Apter Klinghoffer

Ms. Klinghoffer is senior associate scholar at the Political Science department at Rutgers University, Camden, and the author of Vietnam, Jews and the Middle East. She is also an HNN blogger. Click here for her blog.

Where is the sane moderate peace loving Muslim world? Why is its voice so rarely raised in condemnation of Islamist atrocities? It is a question which has been raised in ever increasing urgency since 9/11 and not only by Westerners. A few Muslim commentators have raised it too, but they remained the exception rather than the rule. Last time I raised the issue, it was in the context of a number of cased involving the charge of “insulting Islam,” a charge which led to anti-Coptic riots as well as to the imprisoning a 78-year old Iranian Ayatolla and an Afghani editor of a woman’s magazine.

An Indonesian (and Harvard graduate) editor responded by directing me to an article published in Islamica after the brutal public murder of Theo Van Gogh. It focused not on the disturbing phenomena of Islamic extremism but on the Dutch response to it characterized as “Islamophobia.” Muslims are no more responsible for the murder of Van Gogh it argued than mothers are responsible for Susan Smith drowning her children. Of course, I am not familiar with any organization of mothers encouraging mothers to drawn their children, arguing that doing so would assure their place in haven or supporting the death sentence for people who insult motherhood. I have yet to meet a judge who has sent to prison a person who wrote a book considered critical of mothers.

Leaders of Muslim countries have similarly shirked responsibility for the actions of their extremists. “The Arab world's silence is deafening,” wrote the St. Petersburg Times editors after the recent Iranian president’s declaration that “ Israel must be wiped off the map.” This silence (with the notable exception of the Palestinian Authority) seemed strange even to Muslim analysts. After all, Ahmadinejad’s speech was an attack of Muslim governments which have moved towards accommodation with Israel. So some pundit suggested that "Arab states may be pleased if Iran is further isolated.” If so, they covered it rather well. When the UNSC gathered to condemn this unprecedented attack of one UN member against another, it was Muslim Algeria which not only failed to condemn Iran but made sure that the resolution will “condemn” but not “strongly condemn” that extremist country. Extrapolation from the case of Israel is misleading, some would argue. Perhaps, but Arab states offered similar protection to Syria following the murder of Hariri and remain silent about the mass murder in Darfur.

However, the same Muslim countries, organizations and pundits can be plenty vocal and aggressive when in comes to protecting Islamists from the consequences of their own actions. In fact, they often support their causes. As human rights activist Abu Khwala explains, “fighting infidels until they either convert to Islam or submit to Muslims as 'Dhimmis' is still considered by Islamists to be a religious duty." Hence, any actions undertaken by Muslims towards that end must be vehemently defended with a total disregard of the means used and that is precisely what supposedly non Islamist Muslim leaders do.

Consider the following headline: "Muslim embassies complain over Mohammed caricatures." It all started with editors of Jyllands-Posten, a Danish newspaper hearing reports that artists were reluctant to illustrate a book on Mohammed for fear of Muslim retribution. So, they asked cartoonists to send them drawings of Muhammad. “The cartoons,” they argue, “were a test of whether the threat of Islamic terrorism had limited the freedom of expression in Denmark.” It should be noted that Denmark, unlike Germany, has no laws prescribing free speech. In fact, for years Nazis and Islamists have used Denmark as a safe haven from which to continue to promote their heinous totalitarian ideologies.

Islamists may be happy to exploit Danish freedoms and publish material demeaning to Christians and Jews but what is good for the goose is apparently not good for the gander. The Muslim response came fast and furious. The Danish imam Raed Hlayhel dismissed arguments about free press arguing that "This type of democracy is worthless for Muslims. Muslims will never accept this kind of humiliation. The article has insulted every Muslim in the world." This same Imam shocked Danes when he said in a sermon during Friday prayer, that Danish women's behavior and dress invited rape. In any case, Muslim organizations not only protested vigorously. The cartoonists received death threats which led to the arrest of a 17 year old. Threats to bomb the building led to the positioning of security guards around it.

The affair was not only reminiscent of the Salman Rushdie affair but for the first time, as Danish political science professor Mehdi Mozaffari points out “acts of private individuals, and not the Danish state, could lead to the country falling prey to a terrorist attack.” The Middle East Times reports:

Last week as many as 5,000 Muslims demonstrated in Copenhagen against the paper and the drawings, which depicted Prophet Mohammed in different settings. In one of the drawings he appeared with a turban shaped like a bomb strapped to his head.

Meanwhile, an Islamic group calling itself Glory Brigades in Northern Europe issued threats against Jyllands-Posten and Denmark on the Website www.internet-haganah.us, Danish newspaper Berlingske Tidende reported in its online edition.

AFP was unable to find the link and it was unclear whether it was later removed from the site, but Berlingske Tidende said in its report that it showed Copenhagen images with the caption: "The Mujahideen have numerous targets in Denmark. Very soon you will regret this."

Suddenly, the ever silent Muslims states found their tongues. 11 ambassadors including those from a number of Arab countries, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Bosnia-Hercegovina and Indonesia entered the fray not to calm the excesses of their coreligionists or condemn the threats of violence but to complain about the cartoons and Danish Islamophobia! The Turkish ambassador even seconded the Imam’s sentiments, berating the paper for “abusing Islam in the name of democracy, human rights and freedom of expression.” T he ambassadors wrote a letter to Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen notifying him that they were offended by the caricatures, demanding an official apology from the newspaper and asking for a special audience “to express their concern about what they perceive as anti-Muslim and anti-Islam campaigns in the press and certain far-right political circles.“ The Prime Minister turned down the request for a meeting pointing out that he (unlike Arab tyrants whose papers are full of anti-Semitic propaganda) has no control over the press.

At first, the Egyptian Ambassador Mona Omar Attia embarked on a direct political attack against the Prime Minister by telling a Danish news broadcast that the group planned to meet to discuss contacting other parliamentary leaders, some of whom had urged the PM to meet with the ambassadors. Eventully, a decision was reached “to let international Muslim groups take over the cause, allowing groups such as the Organisation of the Islamic Conference to try to influence the prime minister.” “It's out of our hands,” said Egyptian ambassador Attia, “Now it is moving up to the international level. Therefore, we will not try to contact Denmark's political leaders.” One could imagine that “the Arab League will weigh in soon.”

So, here we are: part of the Muslim community is in the thrall of a totalitarian ideology which turns young Muslims into human bombs. Photos of Muslim and non Muslim civilian body parts flying in the middle of markets, mosques, discos and hotels have become routine. Beheadings of Christian and Jewish men and women are no longer surprising. And what do the ever-silent and passive-defensive Muslim countries, Organization of Islamic Conference and the Arab League vociferously condemn? They are condemning the publication of cartoons featuring Muhammad in a Danish paper. The absurdity of this action is only matched by its hypocrisy.

[Sarge]

I disagree that Christianty's hatefilled nutjobs constitute only a "fringe" group and that the group is denounced regularly by anyone except relatively powerless liberals in hunched and grim enclaves.

You need only turn on CNN,MSNBC, CBS,ABC to see the condemnation. HOw long was the Catholic priest scandel on TV. How long were the comments from Falwell about muhammed being a terorist on the news?

Mainstream media is on any form of Christianity the second it steps "out of it's place". But where is scrutiny when islam is out of place?

[codeorama]

Mainstream media is on any form of Christianity the second it steps "out of it's place". But where is scrutiny when islam is out of place?

I've yet to see a broadcast on any TV network saying that Terrorist were "OK" in what they were doing.

[Kilmer17]

I've yet to see a broadcast on any TV network saying that Terrorist were "OK" in what they were doing.

True Code.

But how quick did stories and editorials start coming out telling people not to blame all muslims, or stories about how it;s a religion of peace etc. Or stories about retaliatory idiocy (the Sikh in Phoenix ie).

They didnt say the terrorists were okay, but they spent an extraordinary amount of time explaining who wasnt a terrorist.

[Predicto]

True Code.

But how quick did stories and editorials start coming out telling people not to blame all muslims, or stories about how it;s a religion of peace etc. Or stories about retaliatory idiocy (the Sikh in Phoenix ie).

They didnt say the terrorists were okay, but they spent an extraordinary amount of time explaining who wasnt a terrorist.

And given the way some of the knuckleheads on this board seem to think, I would say that this was time well spent.

[codeorama]

True Code.

But how quick did stories and editorials start coming out telling people not to blame all muslims, or stories about how it;s a religion of peace etc. Or stories about retaliatory idiocy (the Sikh in Phoenix ie).

They didnt say the terrorists were okay, but they spent an extraordinary amount of time explaining who wasnt a terrorist.

The reason is the same reason I feel the need to jump in... because there are so many people that ARE saying it's all muslims (or not just saying it's a middle eastern problem).

I don't give a rats ass about islam or any other organized religion, but It amazes me how we have a nation full of muslims who are NOT blowing stuff up, YET, there has ALWAYS been problems in the middle east. Again, it seems like the the guys like you should be saying "It's a REGION of peace" rather than a "RELIGION of peace". (not yelling at you... )

[Kilmer17]

The reason is the same reason I feel the need to jump in... because there are so many people that ARE saying it's all muslims (or not just saying it's a middle eastern problem).

I don't give a rats ass about islam or any other organized religion, but It amazes me how we have a nation full of muslims who are NOT blowing stuff up, YET, there has ALWAYS been problems in the middle east. Again, it seems like the the guys like you should be saying "It's a REGION of peace" rather than a "RELIGION of peace". (not yelling at you... )

Which brings us back to my first point about perception.

And while there arent people blowing up buildings in the US for Allah, there aare people raising money here to fund those activities elsewhere.

The AL Arian case is hot in Tampa right now.

[codeorama]

Which brings us back to my first point about perception.

And while there arent people blowing up buildings in the US for Allah, there aare people raising money here to fund those activities elsewhere.

The AL Arian case is hot in Tampa right now.

I totally agree about your point regarding perception.

[Thiebear]

So, here we are: part of the Muslim community is in the thrall of a totalitarian ideology which turns young Muslims into human bombs. Photos of Muslim and non Muslim civilian body parts flying in the middle of markets, mosques, discos and hotels have become routine. Beheadings of Christian and Jewish men and women are no longer surprising. And what do the ever-silent and passive-defensive Muslim countries, Organization of Islamic Conference and the Arab League vociferously condemn? They are condemning the publication of cartoons featuring Muhammad in a Danish paper. The absurdity of this action is only matched by its hypocrisy.

The above basically says it all.

[AlexRS]

Well, it seems that Christianity has progressed beyond the abortion-clinic bombings, and clearly the Christian fanatics now represent a FAR, FAR smaller percentage of their religion, than the fanatics that represent Islam.

Fanatics do not represent Islam.

[Air Force Cane]

there are nearly 6.8 billion people in 2006 on the planet (CIA Worldfacts online)

there are roughly 1 billion Muslims, not 1.5 billion. everytime I hear some apologist for Islam talk there suddenly emerges another 100 million Muslims added to the pie..

[Crazyhorse1]

My point isnt whether they are or are not fringe groups (I'll happily argue that in a different area though). My point is that the PERCEPTION is that they are.

The KKK is as close to an Al Queda type group I can come up with. And they are regularly denounced by mainstream Christians on both sides of the spectrum.

The Christians crusaders now attacking Iraq may also be considered similar to Al Queda in that they are improperly equiped by the great Christian leader in the WH.

[Crazyhorse1]

Two threads sort of blending together here, so I'll post this article about the collective silence from the muslim community in both

http://hnn.us/articles/17589.html

Selective Muslim Silence

By Judith Apter Klinghoffer

Ms. Klinghoffer is senior associate scholar at the Political Science department at Rutgers University, Camden, and the author of Vietnam, Jews and the Middle East. She is also an HNN blogger. Click here for her blog.

Where is the sane moderate peace loving Muslim world? Why is its voice so rarely raised in condemnation of Islamist atrocities? It is a question which has been raised in ever increasing urgency since 9/11 and not only by Westerners. A few Muslim commentators have raised it too, but they remained the exception rather than the rule. Last time I raised the issue, it was in the context of a number of cased involving the charge of “insulting Islam,” a charge which led to anti-Coptic riots as well as to the imprisoning a 78-year old Iranian Ayatolla and an Afghani editor of a woman’s magazine.

An Indonesian (and Harvard graduate) editor responded by directing me to an article published in Islamica after the brutal public murder of Theo Van Gogh. It focused not on the disturbing phenomena of Islamic extremism but on the Dutch response to it characterized as “Islamophobia.” Muslims are no more responsible for the murder of Van Gogh it argued than mothers are responsible for Susan Smith drowning her children. Of course, I am not familiar with any organization of mothers encouraging mothers to drawn their children, arguing that doing so would assure their place in haven or supporting the death sentence for people who insult motherhood. I have yet to meet a judge who has sent to prison a person who wrote a book considered critical of mothers.

Leaders of Muslim countries have similarly shirked responsibility for the actions of their extremists. “The Arab world's silence is deafening,” wrote the St. Petersburg Times editors after the recent Iranian president’s declaration that “ Israel must be wiped off the map.” This silence (with the notable exception of the Palestinian Authority) seemed strange even to Muslim analysts. After all, Ahmadinejad’s speech was an attack of Muslim governments which have moved towards accommodation with Israel. So some pundit suggested that "Arab states may be pleased if Iran is further isolated.” If so, they covered it rather well. When the UNSC gathered to condemn this unprecedented attack of one UN member against another, it was Muslim Algeria which not only failed to condemn Iran but made sure that the resolution will “condemn” but not “strongly condemn” that extremist country. Extrapolation from the case of Israel is misleading, some would argue. Perhaps, but Arab states offered similar protection to Syria following the murder of Hariri and remain silent about the mass murder in Darfur.

However, the same Muslim countries, organizations and pundits can be plenty vocal and aggressive when in comes to protecting Islamists from the consequences of their own actions. In fact, they often support their causes. As human rights activist Abu Khwala explains, “fighting infidels until they either convert to Islam or submit to Muslims as 'Dhimmis' is still considered by Islamists to be a religious duty." Hence, any actions undertaken by Muslims towards that end must be vehemently defended with a total disregard of the means used and that is precisely what supposedly non Islamist Muslim leaders do.

Consider the following headline: "Muslim embassies complain over Mohammed caricatures." It all started with editors of Jyllands-Posten, a Danish newspaper hearing reports that artists were reluctant to illustrate a book on Mohammed for fear of Muslim retribution. So, they asked cartoonists to send them drawings of Muhammad. “The cartoons,” they argue, “were a test of whether the threat of Islamic terrorism had limited the freedom of expression in Denmark.” It should be noted that Denmark, unlike Germany, has no laws prescribing free speech. In fact, for years Nazis and Islamists have used Denmark as a safe haven from which to continue to promote their heinous totalitarian ideologies.

Islamists may be happy to exploit Danish freedoms and publish material demeaning to Christians and Jews but what is good for the goose is apparently not good for the gander. The Muslim response came fast and furious. The Danish imam Raed Hlayhel dismissed arguments about free press arguing that "This type of democracy is worthless for Muslims. Muslims will never accept this kind of humiliation. The article has insulted every Muslim in the world." This same Imam shocked Danes when he said in a sermon during Friday prayer, that Danish women's behavior and dress invited rape. In any case, Muslim organizations not only protested vigorously. The cartoonists received death threats which led to the arrest of a 17 year old. Threats to bomb the building led to the positioning of security guards around it.

The affair was not only reminiscent of the Salman Rushdie affair but for the first time, as Danish political science professor Mehdi Mozaffari points out “acts of private individuals, and not the Danish state, could lead to the country falling prey to a terrorist attack.” The Middle East Times reports:

Last week as many as 5,000 Muslims demonstrated in Copenhagen against the paper and the drawings, which depicted Prophet Mohammed in different settings. In one of the drawings he appeared with a turban shaped like a bomb strapped to his head.

Meanwhile, an Islamic group calling itself Glory Brigades in Northern Europe issued threats against Jyllands-Posten and Denmark on the Website www.internet-haganah.us, Danish newspaper Berlingske Tidende reported in its online edition.

AFP was unable to find the link and it was unclear whether it was later removed from the site, but Berlingske Tidende said in its report that it showed Copenhagen images with the caption: "The Mujahideen have numerous targets in Denmark. Very soon you will regret this."

Suddenly, the ever silent Muslims states found their tongues. 11 ambassadors including those from a number of Arab countries, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Bosnia-Hercegovina and Indonesia entered the fray not to calm the excesses of their coreligionists or condemn the threats of violence but to complain about the cartoons and Danish Islamophobia! The Turkish ambassador even seconded the Imam’s sentiments, berating the paper for “abusing Islam in the name of democracy, human rights and freedom of expression.” T he ambassadors wrote a letter to Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen notifying him that they were offended by the caricatures, demanding an official apology from the newspaper and asking for a special audience “to express their concern about what they perceive as anti-Muslim and anti-Islam campaigns in the press and certain far-right political circles.“ The Prime Minister turned down the request for a meeting pointing out that he (unlike Arab tyrants whose papers are full of anti-Semitic propaganda) has no control over the press.

At first, the Egyptian Ambassador Mona Omar Attia embarked on a direct political attack against the Prime Minister by telling a Danish news broadcast that the group planned to meet to discuss contacting other parliamentary leaders, some of whom had urged the PM to meet with the ambassadors. Eventully, a decision was reached “to let international Muslim groups take over the cause, allowing groups such as the Organisation of the Islamic Conference to try to influence the prime minister.” “It's out of our hands,” said Egyptian ambassador Attia, “Now it is moving up to the international level. Therefore, we will not try to contact Denmark's political leaders.” One could imagine that “the Arab League will weigh in soon.”

So, here we are: part of the Muslim community is in the thrall of a totalitarian ideology which turns young Muslims into human bombs. Photos of Muslim and non Muslim civilian body parts flying in the middle of markets, mosques, discos and hotels have become routine. Beheadings of Christian and Jewish men and women are no longer surprising. And what do the ever-silent and passive-defensive Muslim countries, Organization of Islamic Conference and the Arab League vociferously condemn? They are condemning the publication of cartoons featuring Muhammad in a Danish paper. The absurdity of this action is only matched by its hypocrisy.

I'm still trying to figure out where the sane, moderate Christian world is.

Remember World War 11. The Nazi army was a Christian army, wasn't it? Oh, you forgot. Well, child. The Vatican received a cut of every Nazi's paycheck. Remember now? Remember Mussolini. Yea, him. The guy at confession. And then, of course, there's Nixon and Bush.

Who would Jesus bomb?-- thought for the day.

[Mad Mike]

The Christians crusaders now attacking Iraq may also be considered similar to Al Queda in that they are improperly equiped by the great Christian leader in the WH.

:finger:

Someone ban this idiot.

[webnarc]

:finger:

Someone ban this idiot.

Who, you?