94-00 (why we really fell off)

[newskinsowner]

i did some research on our draft history because of so much talk about drafting and developing players because you cant keep everyone in today's NFL. I believe were not good during the this 6 years span, actually it was very bad. If you look at the draft choices from Norv's years with the Skins from 1994-2000 there are exactly 4 players left with the skins inc (Cory Raymer) from 6 years of drafting. Of course i took in consideration of the coaching carousel that has happend with new head coaches bringing in their players, but if you look at it only 5 players drafted not with the skins anymore remain in the league! So its not that the players drafted did not fit into the new coaches plans they were just not good enough.

You know it was really bad when a 7th round choice qb beats out a 1st round top 10 pick qb for the starting job. :doh: (i'll let you figure that one out).

Dont get me wrong Chris, Lavar, John, and Champ were good draft picks but they were CANT misses. A great to average draft qualifies as to what you do with your picks in the later rounds. We didnt develop pretty much anyone past the 3rd round and if they had potential we gave up on them too early like Shawn Barber, Jamie Asher, and Rich Owens.

Which is why i feel optomistic especially after our last 2 drafts with Wilson, Molinaro, Nemo, Mcune, White, and Newberry. These late round draft choices will be in the mix on special teams, and develop while they serve as backups. Not playing on practice squads or NFL europe for their entire career.

Which brings me to my Questions:

-Did we have more than one scout back then??

-Is he or they still with us??

-Did Jerry (tight face) Jones pull a fast one FULLY aware that Norv(bad skin)Turner wasnt ready and allowed us to take him from the Cowgirls in '94?

-What was really happened during these dark years?

[SlobberKnockinFootball]

You hit the nail on the head. Our drafts have been weak. When you have weak drafts you're going to have a weak team. You don't need to be a rocket scientiest to figure that one out.

But that is just one aspect of why our teams have been bad. The lack of continuity is another.

[budski]

The push to beef up the special teams to me was one of the best moves of the draft this year. A little off topic I know.

[jbooma]

You can take that all the way till today, our drafts haven't been good in a long time, yes we get a player here or there but we don't have cheap players starting and have depth like other teams.

[rictus58]

I think all our problems would have been solved by re-signing Shar Pourdanish. HA! Only joking of course. Certainly bad drafting is a major contributor. Drafting is the #1 reason the ravens have been successful. They draft extremely well (except for QBs which is a crap shoot anyway nine out of ten times). However, even if you draft well, constant change is not going to allow the team to win.

[scottb]

Boy, there are soooo many reasons. In my mind (besides drafting) they are as follows:

1. Norv

2. Norv

3. Norv

4. Absolutely the worst selection of FA's

5. John Kent Cooke Jr. was too nice a guy

6. No vision from the front office

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Originally posted by jbooma

You can take that all the way till today, our drafts haven't been good in a long time, yes we get a player here or there but we don't have cheap players starting and have depth like other teams.

And that sums up the biggest problem we've had since the early 1990s.

In the salary cap era, the drafts aren't extremely important for front-line players. However, notice that we tend to use injuries as an excuse for us not competing in given years...well having 5th, 6th, and 7th round draft choices fill in for injured starters is how you weather the injury storm.

The good teams have depth and you get depth by making the most of your draft picks.

The biggest difference between the Skins and the "good" teams over the past several years has not been the talent of the teams' top echelon of players, it's been the drop-off after that. For years, we were a team of a handful of stars and a bunch of filler players while other teams had a whole lot of dependable players. Our good players were very good, but the supporting cast wasn't nearly as effective as other teams' supporting casts.

That all goes back to the draft and the draft strategies executed by the front office.

[bird_1972]

Originally posted by TD_washingtonredskins

And that sums up the biggest problem we've had since the early 1990s.

In the salary cap era, the drafts aren't extremely important for front-line players. However, notice that we tend to use injuries as an excuse for us not competing in given years...well having 5th, 6th, and 7th round draft choices fill in for injured starters is how you weather the injury storm.

The good teams have depth and you get depth by making the most of your draft picks.

The biggest difference between the Skins and the "good" teams over the past several years has not been the talent of the teams' top echelon of players, it's been the drop-off after that. For years, we were a team of a handful of stars and a bunch of filler players while other teams had a whole lot of dependable players. Our good players were very good, but the supporting cast wasn't nearly as effective as other teams' supporting casts.

That all goes back to the draft and the draft strategies executed by the front office.

Good post.

So where does that leave us going into 2005?

[ATLANTASKINSFAN]

Originally posted by scottb

Boy, there are soooo many reasons. In my mind (besides drafting) they are as follows:

1. Norv

2. Norv

3. Norv

4. Absolutely the worst selection of FA's

5. John Kent Cooke Jr. was too nice a guy

6. No vision from the front office

Dont forget.

7. Norv

[TheLongshot]

Hmmm... A lot of bashing of Norv, but no critisizm of the guy who made most of those picks, Charley Casserly?

In the end, he's the guy who is supposed to find the guys in the late round to get depth. There were some decent people here or there that had flashes, but not many stuck.

I still think it would have been a better move by Snyder to get rid of Norv and keep Casserly, at least in the begining to get his feet wet, but I don't think Casserly was all that either.

but we don't have cheap players starting and have depth like other teams.

Starting players don't stay cheap for long. I actually think we have better depth than we have had for a while.

Jason

[Sebowski]

Originally posted by newskinsowner

Dont get me wrong Chris, Lavar, John, and Champ were good draft picks but they were CANT misses.

\

We desrev a little more credit there.

They weren't any more "can't misses" then Courtney Brown or Tony Mandarich

...........Or Heath Shuler, Desmond Howard, or Andre Johnson:doh:

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Originally posted by bird_1972

Good post.

So where does that leave us going into 2005?

IMO, we're better off than we've been going into 2005. We have capable players like Taylor Jacobs, Chris Clemons, Molinaro, etc. who are not going to be relied on as starters but can come in and help. I think if we keep moving in the direction that we are going, we'll be OK.

I'm no scout or personnel expert though so this is nothing more than a feeling and my opinion.

[ross3909]

I think it leaves us heading in the right direction but still not fully turned around from the problems listed in this thread. We have had two drafts that have netted us some strong players. Players that will get experience on Special Teams during real games. As we gain continuity in Gibbs system we also will gain more and more quality depth at each position. Last year we were playing a non Gibbs team, coached by Gibbs. 2005 we are playing a partially Gibbs created team coached by Gibbs. The difference will be like night and day.

[TheLongshot]

...........Or Heath Shuler, Desmond Howard, or Andre Johnson

Andre Johnson was never a "can't miss" pick. It was a reach because OTs were going off the board left and right, so we traded up with Dallas and made the pick, then regretted it ever since.

Jason

[Riggo-toni]

All of which goes to prove how AWFUL Casserly was.

Yet I still hear people here from time to time wishing he were still around. :doh:

Casserly's ONLY Skins 1st rounder that wasn't a bust: Roland Bailey. And he blew nearly all of the extra picks we got in the Ricky Williams deal to move back up to get him...

Desmond Howard, Heath Shuler, Andre Johnson, Tom Carter, etc.

His only good selections I can think of were Stephen Davis, Brian Mitchell, and Chip Lohmiller. Maybe Stephen "pass the Ben Gay" Alexander

Not to mention trading Duante Culpepper for Brad Johnson. :doh1:

And shelling out megabucks for such stellar performers as Big Daddy, Stubblefield, Leonard Marshall, et al.

[newskinsowner]

Originally posted by Sebowski

\

We desrev a little more credit there.

They weren't any more "can't misses" then Courtney Brown or Tony Mandarich

...........Or Heath Shuler, Desmond Howard, or Andre Johnson:doh:

I dont beleive Heath was a "can't miss" player we needed a quarterback for Norv and he was i my mind pressured to choose from Heath or Dilfer. thats like choosing between limburger cheese and :pooh:

:2cents:

[scottb]

Apparently, it took a village of idiots to run the Reskins during that span.

[ross3909]

Originally posted by Riggo-toni

Not to mention trading Duante Culpepper for Brad Johnson. :doh1:

Sorry but Daunte Culpepper was drafted 11th overall by the Vikings in the 99 draft.

[Mooney]

Originally posted by Riggo-toni

All of which goes to prove how AWFUL Casserly was.

Yet I still hear people here from time to time wishing he were still around. :doh:

Casserly's ONLY Skins 1st rounder that wasn't a bust: Roland Bailey. And he blew nearly all of the extra picks we got in the Ricky Williams deal to move back up to get him...

Desmond Howard, Heath Shuler, Andre Johnson, Tom Carter, etc.

His only good selections I can think of were Stephen Davis, Brian Mitchell, and Chip Lohmiller. Maybe Stephen "pass the Ben Gay" Alexander

Not to mention trading Duante Culpepper for Brad Johnson. :doh1:

And shelling out megabucks for such stellar performers as Big Daddy, Stubblefield, Leonard Marshall, et al.

This should be required reading for anyone who claims Casserly was worth a damn. More than anyone else, he is the reason for the decade plus long slide.

BTW, Chris McAlister was still on the board when he picked Roland, and he wouldn't have had to give up those picks.

[Monkart]

Originally posted by newskinsowner

I dont beleive Heath was a "can't miss" player we needed a quarterback for Norv and he was i my mind pressured to choose from Heath or Dilfer. thats like choosing between limburger cheese and :pooh:

:2cents:

If Dilfer was :pooh: Then at least :pooh: is enough to 1) make it to the Super Bowl and 2) Not lose the Super Bowl, so I guess we really got the :crap: when we went with the limburger cheese.

[Riggo-toni]

Originally posted by ross3909

Sorry but Daunte Culpepper was drafted 11th overall by the Vikings in the 99 draft.

Yeah, with OUR draft pick that we traded, along with our 3rd rounder and our 2000 2nd round for BJ

[newskinsowner]

Originally posted by ross3909

Sorry but Daunte Culpepper was drafted 11th overall by the Vikings in the 99 draft.

i believe what Riggo-toni was trying to say that we aquired Brad Johnson from the Sikes for the 11th pick. To which they used to draft Culpepper.

[TheLongshot]

Yet I still hear people here from time to time wishing he were still around.

Well, I did because I think Snyder needed a football guy who at least knew the ropes, but eventually, he'd get his own guy.

Casserly's ONLY Skins 1st rounder that wasn't a bust: Roland Bailey. And he blew nearly all of the extra picks we got in the Ricky Williams deal to move back up to get him...

It was a good deal for the Redskins: They made the trade, and still got the player they wanted in the first round.

I disagree with saying he was the only one who wasn't a bust. Kenard Lang is a fine player, and has found additional life in Cleveland. I never wanted to get rid of him in the first place.

Desmond Howard, Heath Shuler, Andre Johnson, Tom Carter, etc.

Tom Carter wasn't a bust. He started for us and Chicago. He may not have been a great corner, but he did start in this league.

His only good selections I can think of were Stephen Davis, Brian Mitchell, and Chip Lohmiller. Maybe Stephen "pass the Ben Gay" Alexander

Greg Jones, Derek Smith, Albert Connell (Before he self-destructed), Shawn Barber, Jon Jansen

Not to mention trading Duante Culpepper for Brad Johnson.

Easy to say in hindsight, but Brad Johnson was worth it. Hell, he's won a Super Bowl. That more than you can say about Culpepper.

And shelling out megabucks for such stellar performers as Big Daddy, Stubblefield, Leonard Marshall, et al.

We did get a good year out of Stubblefield. You also forgot to mention Sean Gilbert, who we managed to get a good year out of, then when he held out, got double the value for him.

Course, nowadays, we never seem to get good value in our trades.

In any case, it wasn't all bad, but it wasn't all good either.

Jason

[TheLongshot]

Originally posted by newskinsowner

I dont beleive Heath was a "can't miss" player we needed a quarterback for Norv and he was i my mind pressured to choose from Heath or Dilfer. thats like choosing between limburger cheese and :pooh:

Well, that was one of those no-win situations. We needed a QB, and those were considered the top QBs in the draft.

Goes to tell you what a crap shoot drafting a QB can be.

Jason

[justme]

Originally posted by TheLongshot

We did get a good year out of Stubblefield.

Refresh my memory...what year was that?? Of that miserable duo I'd have to pick Big Daddy as the only one that really made a contribution. At least he didn't get blown off the line of scrimmage.