grego

peter, i feel you. shakur may not have actually shot a cop that day. but what about the BLA that she was unquestionably part of? i'm not sure the "i was part of a militant movement that allegedly robbed banks, hijacked airplanes and may have shot a dozen or so cops, but i didnt shoot one that day" would fly if this was someone else. now, if they didn't do those things, that's another story.

i agree with a lot of that. as to what actually happened, there are not many survivors who can say, and everyone has their reason to paint their own picture of it. could the police have framed her for shooting a cop? no doubt. i looked into this awhile back and it seemed like she probably did shoot a cop, but there are always questions. according to this FBI page, she was found guilty of it- https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/joanne-deborah-chesimard of course, if youre hanging with a group known for shooting cops (they are credited with killing 13 cops), robbing banks and hijacking planes, well..... i was actually looking at the wording - family vs just an organization named after her- of the police statement differently. its a worse look, imo, than if it were actual family. you can't choose your parents. however, you can choose your role models.

They botched the connection. But I think, for the police, it's a bit of a distinction without a difference. They are named after someone who killed a cop. Police don't like that.

don't want to go off track too far. might have to pm you later.

I agree with you about the voting thing, but the voting thing is tied into how some people see his protest. They don't see it as strictly police brutality against black men. They see it as a '**** America', bring down America and capitalism, bring on Marxism (and there is good reason to believe that). There are reasonable criticisms of Kaep and some of these movements and actions that have nothing to do with racist motives. One can want to fix injustice, reform police and the cjs, without tearing down America or taking a stance that there is essentially a racial conspiracy. Does that make sense? I'm pooped so I'm not sure how lucid I'm coming across.

thanks, brandy. I agree with alot of that. swastikas are pretty clear. there arent alot of people walking around using it as the good luck symbol it was, i'm guessing. confederate flag, i know there is some nuance there, but if you were at charlottesville with a confederate flat and known white supremacists, you are one of them. associating with bad actors is something that should be called out, and i'm critical of repubs and dems on this. i will say that when it came to charlottesville last year, it was obviously a lightning rod. some people saw good (antifa) vs bad (white supremacists). others saw bad vs bad. but there was a reason for that. about 2 years ago, i started following some people (these are people who are on the left or center/left politically) who cover the news, as far as what they report and how they report it. there has always been a difference between fox and cnn, etc, but it may have gotten worse in recent years. i preface this, again, with a mention that i'm not a conservative or a fox news fan so this doesnt get minunderstood. fox had been covering antifa for awhile, so if you watched fox, you saw the videos where there were fights, etc, and some seem to be instigated by antifa. obviously, with the 'punch a nazi' richard spencer thing, nobody, understandably, was sympathetic with a nazi getting punched. so, antifa was 'good' in many eyes because of this. around that time, vox ran a story that was sympathetic to antifa, 'dont fall for the antifa trap', https://www.vox.com/strikethrough/2017/10/3/16409530/strikethrough-antifa-trap-violent-protest and made a video painting antifa in a positive light- after all, they fight nazis, whats not to like? fast forward a year later, and vox, just a week or so ago, ran this story, https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/8/12/17681986/antifa-leftist-violence-clashes-protests-charlottesville-dc-unite-the-right . fox had shown the 'bad' side of antifa fighting people who were not actual nazis, so this was not news if you had seen that coverage. the left covered antifa very sympathetically, choosing not to run stories or videos of them behaving badly, even though they were out there. the right, and fox, focused on antifa behaving badly while basically ignoring any negative trump coverage. while this is related to race, its also a reflection of how we feel about hot button, emotional issues and how the news we consume shapes our beliefs. if we only read or saw fox, we would have one view, if we only saw or read the root, we would have a very different view of reality. this is reflected in police behavior and what i mentioned earlier. because black lives matter and this issue is so emotionally divisive, the media run with a story when it is a black man, preferably unarmed, shot by a cop, preferably white. when that happens, its all over the place. last year, unarmed black men accounted for 20 of the 987 fatal shootings by police. this does not account for the race of the cop or whether the cop was in a physical confrontation with the cop. more than half of those are likely to be 'justified' shootings (i know this is a point of disagreement, but legally when a cop is in a physical confrontation with someone, he or she is likely legally justified to use lethal force because there is a gun in play. all cops are aware of a number of shootings where a cops gun was taken from them during a struggle, and they were killed with it), even though it is a tragedy when someone loses their life. statistically, this is an incredibly rare event, but the coverage doesnt make it sound that way, and that is because of social media playing on emotions for dollars. i want to emphasize that last point- it is a tragedy when someone dies when shot by cops (obviously some people are bad, trying to murder other people, etc, but generally speaking). when i point out the statistics, my motivation isnt to minimize anything. ONE person shot by the police in the way some of these people have is too many. there is just no question about that. talking about statistics is about putting it in perspective and pointing out the disparity in how events are pushed in the media which serves to divide people. i think a conversation can be had where it is recognized that bad shootings and bad cops exist, and exist too much, while recognizing the actual numbers. back to things you mentioned, gerrymandering is more likely to be something like what we were talking about with banks than a racism thing, although it is undoubtedly race based. republicans know that 90% ish of blacks will vote democrat, so of course if they have a chance to gerrymander a district to minimize that effect, they will do it. separating families at the borders is another hot button issue. while is funny that at least one of the pics circulated of families being separated was from obamas administration, there is no question that trump zero tolerance policy has ramped it up. the problem here is what to do with the kids when the parents (sometimes not parents) come across illegally as opposed to legal ports of entry. i am an immigrant and not unsympathetic to people wanting a better life here. i think the solution is to find a way to detain people while not separating them. but i dont see this as a race issue. the people crossing illegally are breaking the law and putting their kids in that situation to begin with- that can be a true statement while simultaneously working to find ways to keep families together. heres where illegal immigration gets dicey- white nationalists are anti immigration at least as far as other races are concerned. but its also a reasonable position to be pro legal, vetted immigration and anti illegal immigration. this puts you in a position close to white nationalists, even though its a reasonable position that does not make one a racist. (its worth looking into old quotes from politicians on illegal immigration who would never say those things now because of this fact). sorry for the essay. ? if you got through all of that, hopefully it serves to build bridges and open communication. some of this is just my perspective, but i think its pretty common. i cant speak for these other nazis in here

I think some headway could be made here. What policies or behaviors that people are engaging in would you say are racist? There have been a number of reasons I've seen that some give for believing people are racists-questioning black protests or groups, questioning the benefits and pitfalls of affirmative action, just white people being inherently racist, etc. I'm thinking this may tie into the definition of racism that I'm thinking is confusing to some. I don't have an issue with the "ideology plus power" definition, but it helps conversation immensely if that definition is said that it is what is meant as opposed to the dictionary definition.

I would add (anecdotally) that I've been treated so badly at times by cops, prosecutors, parole board members, counselors, correctional officers, and probably other people in the criminal justice system, not to mention car salesman when I was younger and naive, and other various people, that, were I black, had an accent or something, I would have sworn they were being racist. It's possible some were-many of these people weren't white- but who knows. Could have been. Could have just been really horrible people who were looking out for themselves at another's expense.

you dont think peoples attitudes about race are different, they are just talking about it differently? did i get that right? if so, i would disagree. https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2017/09/01/racist-behaviour-is-declining-in-america .https://qz.com/983016/the-data-are-in-young-people-are-definitely-less-racist-than-old-people/

this is a problem of perception not representing actual numbers, if we saw every shooting by every cop, and statistics back this up as well, i submit our impressions would be different. (and no, i'm not commenting more on this topic because its nearly impossible to discuss, but i'll PM with anyone if they like)

i think thats unquestionably true. social media and filter bubbles have skewed reality. the question is, how can you objectively know the answer as to whether or not people are more racist than 2 years ago. i think some kind of poll done by a reputable company would be the best way. polls have shown that over the last 50, 60 whatever years, racial attitudes have changed dramatically. stephen pinker has done interesting work in this department, putting together objective measurements of where we are compared to where we were and how things are actually pretty amazing now, yet almost nobody feels that way. social media isnt the only reason we feel that way, its also because negative memories are stronger than positive, and such. interesting stuff.

Yacht rock, channel 70, is the best channel on Sirius xm.

And the comments about moving to the rain forest so "I can be among the 90% that don't give a **** about this ****"? I thought we were supposed to give a ****? Oy. Not good.

She definitely appears to be lying, at the very least. "I never had sex with him" "what about the pics?" "they just show my tits. That doesn't mean ****" Right. Just cuz there are pics of us on a bed and Iww look naked, and have my boobs out.... Sex? Wha? No way. Personally I always lie around naked on hotel beds with chicks I'm not banging. Now it looks like she may be claiming he took the advantage of her. Reading the texts does make her look worse (if they are legit, that is).

Kind of an odd explanation, imo. There were several selfies taken of them in bed together, as I understand it. Wonder if they will come out.

i get what youre saying. i also get that if the sexes were reversed, it'd be a different conversation, but i also recognize why that it- power dynamics, control, physical dominance, etc. reading the tweets or whatever from her to him, it sounded pretty creepy, the whole mommy/son thing, before meeting in her hotel and her apparently having whoever he was with leave, etc. it had a vibe of someone who was manipulating someone vulnerable. years ago, an ex gf of mine got involved with a guy who had been a very well liked school teacher who had been convicted of messing around with, or trying to mess around with, some male students. they were around 13 or 14, iirc. the main student in question, the son of a fellow female teacher, had his father die when he was around 10 or so and the female teacher would have him hang out at the school while she finished up her day and introduced him to the teacher. she thought it was so great that this guy was spending time with her kid since dad wasnt around anymore. i listened to the court tapes of the proceedings and it was clear this guy was capitalizing on trust. they guy would house sit for several people and invite some of the kids to sleep over. i still cant believe it, but some of the parents of the kids who were, at the very least, approached by the guy with offers of backrubs while they slept over at peoples houses actually defended the guy- their own kids told them he came onto them, and they defended him. i cant even imagine it. anyway, point is, it sounds to me like there was some kind of mental games being played on a 17 year old who may have been susceptible. she was apparently abused (and kept messing with weinstein, apparently), he might have previously been abused, who knows. when your head gets messed with like that, you don't behave in a predictable way.

I was friends with Neil and Dan in high school.

fixed a good IPA, on the other hand, is like heaven

in just a few minutes, i'll be heading to a shelter in baltimore to get one, more likely two new members of the family. last time i posted in this topic, i was talking about my chihuahua dachsund mix that we got from the shelter in DC about 4 1/2 years ago as a third dog to go with the jack russell weve had since she was 8 weeks old- our first dog, and a puggle my wife got from a friend who was too busy and the dog was in a crate almost all day. daphne, the jack russell, and scrappy, the puggle were great together. i agreed to get a third dog after visiting the shelter in giathersburg and seeing an old dog who was losing his fur. there was a sign next to him that said 'free'. he just looked at me the whole time. that dog needed a home. so we were going to get a dog like that- and older one with issues that nobody wanted. so we got taco, the dachsund mix. soon he became deaf and nearly blind. he had back issues that caused him alot of pain from time to time. he had these bumps all over his body and a recurring sore on his butt that would smell awful. besides that, the shelter said he was 7 1/2. took him to the vet and they said more like 12 or 13. besides all that, he was perfect. i had said before that the first week i had him, i let him off his leash to sniff around and he started to run away as fast as he could away from me. once when i took my belt off when he was near me, he winced and yelped. soon after that, he would never leave my side. wherever i was, he had to be there. a couple of months ago, he was on the chair hanging out with me. i had gotten up to take a shower and i thought he was asleep. he tried to jump down to find me and he hurt his back. he was contorted and about 90 degrees and just kept yelping. it was sunday so the vet wasnt open (except the emergency vet in frederick, which id been to and it wasnt great). i had all the usual pain killers hed been prescribed before and i have him everything. they were supposed to make him drowsy, so at least he could sleep. nothing worked. i stayed up with him trying to comfort him after everyone went to bed. around one o clock i had the realization that this was it. the vet was going to prescribe the same meds i was giving him. he was almost completely blind now. he was at least 16 years old, and he wasnt happy. i was a mess. i took him to the vet first thing in the morning. they gave him the first injection to sedate him and he immediately looked so happy. he was no longer struggling to breathe or panting non stop. that made me happy. soon after they gave him the other stuff and he was gone. a few weeks ago i went on the vacation of my life to hawaii. (in laws paid, i dont have that kind of dough. OC is my spot). we had never been away from the dogs for more than 2 nights before- we took them basically everywhere we went. my niece watched daphne and clyde, the lab pit mix we got after scrappy died 3 years ago. daphne had been slowing down and acting funny. shed stand in a corner staring at nothing and seemed to not hear when i would come home. we got home saturday night 3 weeks ago. daphne didnt seem to notice at first, almost like she didnt recognize us. went to bed like usual. my wife woke me up at 8 and said 'i think daphne died'. there she was on the floor by the door. my baby girl i'd had for 14 years, before i was married, before i had a kid, was gone. its been a rough stretch. 3 months ago, i had 3 awesome dogs. now we just have clyde (who looks just like your dog, llevron- i'll have to post pics). but today, we open a new chapter and give one or two new dogs a forever home, which is pretty awesome.

You can find some stations on tunein that for whatever reason will play the games. Sometimes takes a few minutes to find one though.

Agreed. You are what you refuse to disavow as far as I'm concerned.

I think you may be misreading that. No doubt there are those like you describe. But there are many who are tired of a double standard. I think there's been a misinterpretation, in general, of people's political motives that's increased the last couple of years. And to get back to some kind of normalcy, it's important to understand what drives opinions.

How do you do that, and what if they resist?

There are two things here. I think there are two definitions that aren't mutually exclusive (but for some reason define the same word) that can be discussed. One is about one's beliefs, one is about one's beliefs plus the power to enact them. They describe two different things. The second idea is that one's race prevents them from being able to define a word. That's how it confuses things.

What a bizarre day. Between choosing to make up our own definitions of words and the disconnect when it comes to the wisdom of trying to appeal to voters who haven't traditionally voted for democrats but don't like Trump. I need a drink.