Revenge of The Sith gets a PG-13 rating

[codeorama]

Originally posted by DUSTINMFOX

But there were high expectations for V and VI and they delivered.

Alot of people hate Return of the Jedi.

[Henry]

Code, I'm sick of saying the same thing over and over. So this is my last attempt. You said

The OT has only become beloved as time has gone on. While it raked in the bucks, there were lots of people that hated the movies, even back then.

I say 10 academy award nominations and 7 awards for the original Star Wars says otherwise. The long passage of time did not make this movie beloved.

Maybe it was groundbreaking. Maybe because it was just plain better. Maybe it was because the lillies were in bloom. I don't know. I DO know that Star Wars was loved from the very beginning, and did not require hindsight to legitimize its popularity.

That's ALL I'm saying.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Henry

Code, I'm sick of saying the same thing over and over. So this is my last attempt. You said

I say 10 academy award nominations and 7 awards for the original Star Wars says otherwise. The long passage of time did not make this movie beloved.

Maybe it was groundbreaking. Maybe because it was just plain better. Maybe it was because the lillies were in bloom. I don't know. I DO know that Star Wars was loved from the very beginning, and did not require hindsight to legitimize its popularity.

That's ALL I'm saying.

Henry, I agreed with you that SW was a huge Box Office smash... But the Phantom Menance dwarfed EPIV's debut.... Going by the box office doesn't mean everything. That doesn't make TPM a better movie, and it doesn't make EP IV beloved. I clearly said that I was talking about critical acclaim, particularly from critics.

I'm NOT and never have said that the original were not a HUGE success, that's obvious, but times were different, that's why the newer movies have eclipsed the old ones in shorter runs... How many times have the OT movies been re released in the theaters?? At least 4 times that I know of, but TPM still put up bigger numbers. Again, I'm in no way saying that TPM is a better movie, It's not, not even in my opinion, but I don't think it's as bad as so many claim. I like it alot, but I'm sure after EP III, my rankings will problably be:

EP III, ESB, AOTC, EP IV, ROTJ, TPM.

My quote regarding the films being beloved is in referance to the acting and dialog.

People forget the acting.. Mark Hamil was baaaad at times. The cheesy lines. That's what I was talking about.

[Walking Deadman]

Fair enough code,

But I truthfully in the long run don't like Eps. 1 and 2 compared to the 2nd trilogy, with exception of Yoda fighting, seeing Jedi and Sith on the big screen and doing alittle more with their abilities other than some "saber" fighting.

Plus, I think that we know many of the outcomes take away from the 1st trilogy (Duh- the phantom menace is Palpatine, the clone troopers will eventually be the Empire's Stormtroopers and turn on the Republic/Jedi).

But, I like where Ep. 3 is going.....I like how Lucas has allowed Clone Wars on Cartoon Network to flesh out Mace, some of the other Jedi's, Anakin (we actually see him as a warrior/hero/Jedi, not just a little brat) and Grevious and set up for Ep. 3.

Yeah, I think Ep.3 may just overtake Empire as the"darkest" and most favorite of episodes in the entire saga.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by goskins

Fair enough code,

But I truthfully in the long run don't like Eps. 1 and 2 compared to the 2nd trilogy, with exception of Yoda fighting, seeing Jedi and Sith on the big screen and doing alittle more with their abilities other than some "saber" fighting.

Plus, I think that we know many of the outcomes take away from the 1st trilogy (Duh- the phantom menace is Palpatine, the clone troopers will eventually be the Empire's Stormtroopers and turn on the Republic/Jedi).

But, I like where Ep. 3 is going.....I like how Lucas has allowed Clone Wars on Cartoon Network to flesh out Mace, some of the other Jedi's, Anakin (we actually see him as a warrior/hero/Jedi, not just a little brat) and Grevious and set up for Ep. 3.

Yeah, I think Ep.3 may just overtake Empire as the"darkest" and most favorite of episodes in the entire saga.

I think the story of the OT is better, save for EP III and Anakin's transformation, but overall, the story is better, but Lucas stayed pretty true and stuck to his rough outline.

There are quotes from 1978 where he talks about starting from ANH, he basically said that the middle part was more of a fairy tale while the beginning was very political and on a bigger scale, he never knew if he'd be able to do everything that he wanted, so he figured the best thing to so was start with ANH and that makes sense. Technology has made the PT more possible.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by Henry

Maybe, maybe not. But the originals did not receive nearly the amount of ciriticism these last two have. While you and I can rationalize the reasons behind this all we want, VERY few people were overly critical of the original Star Wars.

This is what it comes to Henry, the divide in the SW community between gushers and bashers. We'll have gushers going to any depth to defend the new films. Maybe Ep 3 WILL be great, I don't know.

All I CAN say, is that my mom saw all three originals, she was an ADULT and she CRIED at the end of RotJ and she liked the movies as much as I did.

She just can't get into the new films, she didn't think they were god-awful, just not a match.

Anyone who does is off their rocker, and I'm INCLUDING such filmmaking aspects as acting, cinematography, writing and EVEN MUSIC.

Seems like they took a step up with the effects for Ep 3, but Ep 2 was obviously mostly fake.

If they had used combinations of effects and large miniatures as Jackson and WeTA did for LotR, the effects would have blended better and been more convincing.

One need not even talk about the acting and writing.

[Henry]

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

This is what it comes to Henry, the divide in the SW community between gushers and bashers. We'll have gushers going to any depth to defend the new films. Maybe Ep 3 WILL be great, I don't know.

All I CAN say, is that my mom saw all three originals, she was an ADULT and she CRIED at the end of RotJ and she liked the movies as much as I did.

She just can't get into the new films, she didn't think they were god-awful, just not a match.

Anyone who does is off their rocker, and I'm INCLUDING such filmmaking aspects as acting, cinematography, writing and EVEN MUSIC.

Seems like they took a step up with the effects for Ep 3, but Ep 2 was obviously mostly fake.

If they had used combinations of effects and large miniatures as Jackson and WeTA did for LotR, the effects would have blended better and been more convincing.

One need not even talk about the acting and writing.

Before you pat me on the back, I must tell you I am a card-carrying gusher.

That said, I don't feel the need to re-write history to like the new movies.

Code is right that all of the movie had thier flaws. Heck all movies everywhere do. The flaws in the new movies simply don't bug me enough to ruin them for me. That's not true for you and that's cool too. It's a free country.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

This is what it comes to Henry, the divide in the SW community between gushers and bashers. We'll have gushers going to any depth to defend the new films. Maybe Ep 3 WILL be great, I don't know.

All I CAN say, is that my mom saw all three originals, she was an ADULT and she CRIED at the end of RotJ and she liked the movies as much as I did.

She just can't get into the new films, she didn't think they were god-awful, just not a match.

Anyone who does is off their rocker, and I'm INCLUDING such filmmaking aspects as acting, cinematography, writing and EVEN MUSIC.

Seems like they took a step up with the effects for Ep 3, but Ep 2 was obviously mostly fake.

If they had used combinations of effects and large miniatures as Jackson and WeTA did for LotR, the effects would have blended better and been more convincing.

One need not even talk about the acting and writing.

Apples and oranges.

The 2 sets of movies are in different times and different scopes.

My parents saw the originals and they thought they were OK, nothing great... what does that prove? Nothing.

The acting is as its supposed to be, stiff and formal. I'm sure EP III will change that because the roles change.

How do you know your mom won't see EP III and cry?

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by Henry

That's not true for you and that's cool too. It's a free country.

You may be a 'gusher' too, but you are within the framework of recognizing the originals as superior.

As for that free country bit, well, not after I'm through with it. :laugh: MUAHAHAHHA!

[codeorama]

Also, here's the box office info:

EP I: 431 mil

EP II: 302 mil

Ep IV: 221 mil in first run, counting 6 re releases, 460 mil total

EP V: 222 mil, 290 mil total, including re releases

Ep VI: 263 mil, 308 including re releases...

Interesting, ESB, which is widely considered the best of all the movies, which I agree, so far, has done the least at the box office.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

You may be a 'gusher' too, but you are within the framework of recognizing the originals as superior.

Why not wait till the PT is finished? That's why I say apples and oranges, you are comparing a completed work to an unfinished one.

[Henry]

Originally posted by codeorama

Also, here's the box office info:

EP I: 431 mil

EP II: 302 mil

Ep IV: 221 mil in first run, counting 6 re releases, 460 mil total

EP V: 222 mil, 290 mil total, including re releases

Ep VI: 263 mil, 308 including re releases...

Interesting, ESB, which is widely considered the best of all the movies, which I agree, so far, has done the least at the box office.

Code, please stop.

Which is bigger: $221 mil in 1977 or $431 mil in 1999?

In 1977 an $11 million budget (the budget for the first movie) was considered huge.

in 1999 an $160 million budget (the budget for TPM) was considered fairly standard.

Which movie do you think made more real dollars?

Besides, none of that matters, considering the impact video rentals and sales have had on the movie industry. You simply can't compare raw numbers like that.

[big z]

gentlemen, this is easy.

you cared about the characters in the original trilogy AND it had awesome effects.

the new trilogy is all about the effects and seeing the characters from the ORIGINAL Trilogy kick butt (yoda, presumably vader, presumably the wookies) and add some comic relief (the droids)...that's it.

it is what it is. as code has pointed out, apples to oranges.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Henry

Code, please stop.

Which is bigger: $221 mil in 1977 or $431 mil in 1999?

In 1977 an $11 million budget (the budget for the first movie) was considered huge.

in 1999 an $160 million budget (the budget for TPM) was considered fairly standard.

Which movie do you think made more real dollars?

Besides, none of that matters, considering the impact video rentals and sales have had on the movie industry. You simply can't compare raw numbers like that.

You are misunderstanding me... The OT DVD's made 100 million on the FIRST DAY... that's not what I'm arguing.

My point was that ESB is the least successful, money wise EVEN in the rereleases, yet it is considered the best movie.

Sorry that I didn't make that more clear.

I'm NOT trying to say the PT is better.

I don't think the PT is better. I think the two are completely different and Incomplete at this point.

[KevinthePRF]

I'm one who gripes that the story of the prequels doesn't exactly "fit" and more so just isn't as interesting as the OT. The reason is a little mix of bad writing and writing the PTs for the purpose of special effects shots as opposed to story.

Note: I reference EP III so beware, probable SPOILERS.

Evidence 1:

Midicholorians. I can't forgive Lucas for this one even though he quickly swept it under the rug after TPM. A scientific explination for something he wrote as religion and mythical force in the OT. One of my favorite scenes from the OT was Yoda's talk with Luke about how the force is all around and not made up of the flesh. Wait a minute, yes it is. Just so we can show that Anakin has a high count. Disgrace to the OT.

Evidence 2:

Jar Jar Binks AND the droids.

If you watch the OT, the comic relief comes across quite naturally and isn't forced. The case is the exact opposite in the PT thus far. Jar Jar is forced comedy in TPM which horribly takes away from the movie instead of add to it. Throw in the droid army "Roger Roger" as well. I'd say the same thing about the driods in AOTC (see head excahange scenes). I attribute this comic abuse instead of comic relief to more bad writing. Maybe it's because he has kids now or something, hey Lucas, Barney isn't funny either.

Evidence 3:

Master Sifodyas.

Who is Sifodyas??? The correct answer is, "who gives a sh*t" This was Lucas weak attempt at suspense. After all, we know where all the main characters of the PT end up we had to have some suspense right? Unfortunately all this will ultimately be is just a side note to the real story in Ep III, Anakin's fall. The bad thing is Lucas had suspense staring him right in the face after TPM and didn't take advantage, instead he shot a dud with Palpatine. Everyone was wondering after that movie if Darth Sidious and Palpatine was actually the same person, it would of been a brilliant move for them not to be. And actually would of added some suspense to the trilogy if that answer was held over until the final movie.

Evidence 4:

Leia remembers her mother to the point of describing what she is like, Luke doesn't at all.

SPOILERS. There is no way the movie is going to solve this discussion from the OT without looking shabby at best. I can't remember my mother from the day I was born either, much less describe her.

There's some other things that bother me that have been mentioned above like the horrific miscasting of Samuel L Jackson as a jedi Master. I know he was begging Lucas to be in Star Wars when he announced he was making the trilogy but casting him in that role was a mistake because he's always potrays lively personalities and is forced to be subdued throughout these prequels. I personally would of cast him as Count Dooku, at least then Dooku's character wouldn't of been so boring.

Also I share the gripe about Darth Maul, just because he was a bad a55. But I would of been happy at just a little more character development before killing him off. Again an easily missed oppurtunity by Lucas. Watch the duel. There is a scene where all three parties are stuck behind forcefields with Maul aggressively pacing about. This would of been a perfect time for him to rattle off some political or Sith rhetoric, just to give the guy some character. I wasn't upset he was killed, I was just upset he had like two lines through the whole movie and was supposed to be a central bad guy.

Edited gripe:

"The Chosen One" Oh how I rolled my eyes at this mythical cliche that was litterally thrown into the prequels after zero mention in the OT. Anakin was the chosen one? By whom? How is he supposed to bring balance to the force? How is it unbalanced? It's never really explained. Just cheap writing thrown in to enhance Anakin's character. It all comes off corny to me.

[codeorama]

Replies within....

Originally posted by KevinthePRF

I'm one who gripes that the story of the prequels doesn't exactly "fit" and more so just isn't as interesting as the OT. The reason is a little mix of bad writing and writing the PTs for the purpose of special effects shots as opposed to story.

Note: I reference EP III so beware, probable SPOILERS.

Evidence 1:

Midicholorians. I can't forgive Lucas for this one even though he quickly swept it under the rug after TPM. A scientific explination for something he wrote as religion and mythical force in the OT. One of my favorite scenes from the OT was Yoda's talk with Luke about how the force is all around and not made up of the flesh. Wait a minute, yes it is. Just so we can show that Anakin has a high count. Disgrace to the OT.

I UNDERSTAND, I GUESS FOR ME, THAT PART ISN'T A BIG DEAL.

Evidence 2:

Jar Jar Binks AND the droids.

If you watch the OT, the comic relief comes across quite naturally and isn't forced. The case is the exact opposite in the PT thus far. Jar Jar is forced comedy in TPM which horribly takes away from the movie instead of add to it. Throw in the droid army "Roger Roger" as well. I'd say the same thing about the driods in AOTC (see head excahange scenes). I attribute this comic abuse instead of comic relief to more bad writing. Maybe it's because he has kids now or something, hey Lucas, Barney isn't funny either.

THERE WAS COMIC RELEIF IN THE OT, R2 AND 3PO, EWOKS

Evidence 3:

Master Sifodyas.

Who is Sifodyas??? The correct answer is, "who gives a sh*t" This was Lucas weak attempt at suspense. After all, we know where all the main characters of the PT end up we had to have some suspense right? Unfortunately all this will ultimately be is just a side note to the real story in Ep III, Anakin's fall. The bad thing is Lucas had suspense staring him right in the face after TPM and didn't take advantage, instead he shot a dud with Palpatine. Everyone was wondering after that movie if Darth Sidious and Palpatine was actually the same person, it would of been a brilliant move for them not to be. And actually would of added some suspense to the trilogy if that answer was held over until the final movie.

THE QUESTION IS WHO ORDERED THE CLONES, SIFO DYAS WAS A REAL JEDI, AND HE DIED ABOUT THE TIME THAT DOOKU LEFT THE ORDER

Evidence 4:

Leia remembers her mother to the point of describing what she is like, Luke doesn't at all.

SPOILERS. There is no way the movie is going to solve this discussion from the OT without looking shabby at best. I can't remember my mother from the day I was born either, much less describe her.

LEIA IS BORN FIRST AND PADME HOLDS HER, LUKE IS BORN AFTER PADME IS DEAD. LEIA ONLY REMEMBERS THAT HER MOTHER WAS SAD, GUESS WHAT, SHE'S DYING... I'D BE SAD TOO... LEIA IS FORCE SENSITIVE YOU KNOW..

There's some other things that bother me that have been mentioned above like the horrific miscasting of Samuel L Jackson as a jedi Master. I know he was begging Lucas to be in Star Wars when he announced he was making the trilogy but casting him in that role was a mistake because he's always potrays lively personalities and is forced to be subdued throughout these prequels. I personally would of cast him as Count Dooku, at least then Dooku's character wouldn't of been so boring.

Also I share the gripe about Darth Maul, just because he was a bad a55. But I would of been happy at just a little more character development before killing him off. Again an easily missed oppurtunity by Lucas. Watch the duel. There is a scene where all three parties are stuck behind forcefields with Maul aggressively pacing about. This would of been a perfect time for him to rattle off some political or Sith rhetoric, just to give the guy some character. I wasn't upset he was killed, I was just upset he had like two lines through the whole movie and was supposed to be a central bad guy.

Sorry bout the caps, not yelling, just wanted to make sure the text stood out...

For the record, I thought Dooku was awsome, you couldn't get the dialog out of Maul and we need to see Obi kill a sith IMO. Dooku was cool, he tried to seduce Obi, brought on a nice parallel from the OT.

[codeorama]

Double post, sorry.

[SkinsNumberOne]

I heard Lucas hired a script writer to help make real dialogue. Hayden Christiansen had a quote somewhere saying something about how happy he was to be able to read "human dialogue."

Ouch. I guess we'll have to wait to see if his performance backs up his words. I'm not confident in him, personally, but we'll see. Of course, though, the director can sometimes take some blame as well.

[KevinthePRF]

Originally posted by codeorama

Replies within....

Sorry bout the caps, not yelling, just wanted to make sure the text stood out...

For the record, I thought Dooku was awsome, you couldn't get the dialog out of Maul and we need to see Obi kill a sith IMO. Dooku was cool, he tried to seduce Obi, brought on a nice parallel from the OT.

Code you missed my entire point about comic relief vs forced comedy. Even though the Ewoks came dangerously close to what Jar Jar did in TPM.

You also missed my point about Sifodyus. My point was who cares, this was a weak side note for the real story in Episode III.

I've already read the book also and know how the Leia/Luke thing is explained. Isn't Luke force sensitive too? In any event I'm sure if Lucas had his way, he would of changed the dialouge of ROTJ so neither of them remembers.

And why couldn't you "get dialouge out of Maul'? Sure you could have, Lucas just chose not to.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by SkinsNumberOne

I heard Lucas hired a script writer to help make real dialogue. Hayden Christiansen had a quote somewhere saying something about how happy he was to be able to read "human dialogue."

Ouch. I guess we'll have to wait to see if his performance backs up his words. I'm not confident in him, personally, but we'll see. Of course, though, the director can sometimes take some blame as well.

Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamill have all made similar complaints about dialog fromt the OT, and Lucas had help writing V and VI, not sure about IV.

I think it's easy to say that Lucas isn't the best director, I think think his ideas and vision are what he's best at.

I still think it would have been awsome to see what Speilberg would have done to any one of the SW movies OT or PT.

[ntotoro]

Originally posted by codeorama

THE QUESTION IS WHO ORDERED THE CLONES, SIFO DYAS WAS A REAL JEDI, AND HE DIED ABOUT THE TIME THAT DOOKU LEFT THE ORDER

In one of the comic adaptations, it shows Count Dooku keeping Sifo-Dyas on-ice and using his blood to transfuse into General Greivous to kinda' artificially give him a Midichlorian count of sorts.

So much for spiritual and metaphysical aspects of the Jedi beliefs if you can just get instant Jedi skillz (yo!) just by getting a blood transfusion.

Nick

[codeorama]

Originally posted by KevinthePRF

Code you missed my entire point about comic relief vs forced comedy. Even though the Ewoks came dangerously close to what Jar Jar did in TPM.

You also missed my point about Sifodyus. My point was who cares, this was a weak side note for the real story in Episode III.

I've already read the book also and know how the Leia/Luke thing is explained. Isn't Luke force sensitive too? In any event I'm sure if Lucas had his way, he would of changed the dialouge of ROTJ so neither of them remembers.

And why couldn't you "get dialouge out of Maul'? Sure you could have, Lucas just chose not to.

To this day, I still hate the EWOKS, but not to the point that it ruins it for me. I understand what you mean, it just doesn't ruing it for me personally.

As for Sifo, sure, they could have left it out, but it has been a huge speculation point inbetween these last 2 movies.

It added to the jedi's confusion, the clones were ordered by a jedi that was no longer around to answer to.

What I meant by Maul was that he was a pure physical bad ass, very cool, he's the PT's version of Boba Fett IMO.

While you don't like Dooku and think he's boring, I love him. He's cool as ****, comeon, that's christopher lee.... I love how the Dooku/Obi/Anakin duel was shrouded in darkness. I know, you can argue that they had to do that because Lee is old and they had to use a stunt double, but I like it, it was like Luke and Vader's duel.

I really believe that Obi needed to beat Maul, it shows how much ability Obi has.

There are so many fanboys that don't understand how obi can beat Vader/Anakin. Obi is a bad ass himself.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by ntotoro

In one of the comic adaptations, it shows Count Dooku keeping Sifo-Dyas on-ice and using his blood to transfuse into General Greivous to kinda' artificially give him a Midichlorian count of sorts.

So much for spiritual and metaphysical aspects of the Jedi beliefs if you can just get instant Jedi skillz (yo!) just by getting a blood transfusion.

Nick

Sorry, I don't really keep up with EU stuff... How did that work, Greivous doesn't have force powers?

[Ghost of]

I know lots of people hate the Ewoks. Many critics point to RotJ as the beginning of the end for the SW saga, and not just because it was the final installment of the originals.

That said, the power of the Emperor/Luke/Vader scenes carried the great parts of the saga forward.

And the space battle in RotJ is still the best space battle in movie history when it comes to effects, aesthetics, flow and reflection of plot developments.

[ntotoro]

Originally posted by codeorama

Sorry, I don't really keep up with EU stuff... How did that work, Greivous doesn't have force powers?

Neither do I. Someone at the Home Theater Forum scanned pages of one of the comics and posted it... :laugh:

Greivous doesn't have Jedi powers at all, except apparently in the comics. In the movie, his lightsaber skills are apparently passed off as being a benefit of his bionic body. In the comic (occurring before the events of ROTS), Syfo-Dias is kept around by Dukoo for blood transfusions which give him Midichlorians. Not sure if this just helps his swordplay or if he can do stuff like force pushes, too.

Nick