bulldog Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 My apologies to the posters I disagreed with over the past 2 plus months who indicated that the fading velocity and depth on Mark Brunell’s passes was going to limit what the Redskins would be able to do on offense in 2004. Mark Brunell’s metamorphosis from a playmaking quarterback to a veteran that survives by managing the clock and trying not making the critical mistakes I think is now clearly before us. The striking contrast between the level of focus and execution of the team between the Tampa and NY games I think is linked chiefly in the realization that in both cases Mark Brunell was not able to get anything going in the passing game in either contest. Managing the clock and game with general competence in Week 1 the Redskins won despite making few big plays and depending on the defense to be at the top of its form. This time around, with some early adversity, the Redskins went into a shell on offense and couldn’t mount any real sustained effort vs. an average Giants defense UNTIL Brunell went out in the third quarter. When Patrick Ramsey entered the game he made enough mistakes to fill a highlight reel, to be sure, but what he also showed was that a quarterback with a franchise arm could wreak havoc on the Giants defense. Ramsey consistently drove the Redskins down the field and as a result the team played most of the last quarter plus in the Giants’ end of the field. A more mature player would have taken the 3 points instead of forcing the ball to Coles on the first Alexander interception and not have thrown the wounded duck that all but finished the game for the Redskins, but the fact the Skins were down in that end of the field to make these mistakes stood in such stark contrast to what the offense was not able to do with Brunell on the field. Brunell after 2 weeks now looks to me to be a more athletic version of Brad Johnson. An aging veteran with a limited arm that is trying to get by on accumulated experience and the strength of the team in other areas, mainly Portis and the resurgent defense under Gregg Williams. One comment that Sam Huff made on the radio show that really stuck home was in the post-game wrap up when Sonny was commenting on how good the first drive looked and how it went downhill from there. Huff indicated that the Giants changed their defense after that first drive and went to a pressure scheme inside and man up outside, keep Portis in check and dare Brunell to beat Will Allen and Will Peterson deep. The failure of Brunell and the passing game to do much of anything for the next 35 minutes until Ramsey came in in relief is evidence of the success of the strategy. And that is also why the Giants were sucking wind when Ramsey started throwing the ball, because all those same premises were then out the window and the Giants were grasping for a strategy to go with the change in the ability of the Redskins qb to make plays with his arm. And they found one: Ramsey’s inexperience and impatience to please Joe Gibbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Wow. Great post, and my sentiments exactly. Favre has had more than his fair share of bone-headed performances like PR had yesterday, but nobody thinks he can't read a defense or whatever. By the time the 3rd quarter rolled around, I was audibly groaning at the TV, "Bring in Patrick." I was actually relieved when Brunell went out. I don't think I'm a big Ramses homer, either. But seeing those wounded ducks made me think Waffle was back in the lineup. In retrospect, I REALLY wish we'd brought in Kerry Collins (or even Kurt Warner, for that matter) instead of Brunell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RF4L Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Is it just me, or are our current QB's the worst that Gibbs has had to work with? Brunell looks absolutely terrible and Ramsey, while possessing a strong arm, doesn't seem to have the mental acumen to succeed. I don't remember Theismann, Schroeder, Williams, Rypien and the rest being as bad as what we have on the roster right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 Ramsey went too far in trying to impress Gibbs with his playmaking ability, when he should have been looking up at the relatively close score and focused on getting at least 3 points each time the Skins were in Giants territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty dread Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Theismann said it took him a year to get comfortable in this system. It's not gonna happen overnight, we've gotta give it some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 Ramsey won't get comfortable sitting on the bench, however. Theismann learned it by playing it. If Brunell is capable of getting this team to 10-6 on his current skills then having Ramsey wait and learn with another offseason to support him makes sense. But if Brunell's skills have truly declined to the point the Redskins don't have any teeth in their mouth offensively than Gibbs has to make some changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins4eva Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Exactly, it's not time to sell the farm yet. People need to relax and realize that just because Gibbs is coaching, doesn't mean that we are automatically a playoff team. Let's save the dispair analysis for week 8, after half of the season and evaluate then. Clearly, Brunell is not the long term answer: his arm is done, and he doesn't even make good veteran decisions (the turnovers, his partiuclarly killed our momentum in two games). We're not a good team right now, let's see how we respond to the loss. Dallas on monday night, another division game will be a good litmus test for the rest of our season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Rypien looked horrible (as did Schroeder) for a while before they got better. There were plenty of games in our playoff seasons that we won despite our QB play. Not in the early 80s or in 1991 necessarily but definitely in the seasons in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 the trouble is that the rest of the team seems capable of having a good season. Portis can't run the ball against 8 or 9 man fronts when Brunell and Co. produce 90 yards in a half consistently through the air. The defense is pitching near shutouts (albeit against offenses that are not top rank) and is being let down by opposition scores against OUR offense and repeatedly poor field position from which to defend. The other area that still needs work is kickoff coverage where John Hall seems to be making more tackles than any of the position players. That is just ridiculous :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 A DMac, Gardner Coles WR set would be a cure all for Brunell as well as some stickem for gardner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato Sack Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 I think what bothers me the most - no, what hurts me the most - is that these two QBs can come in and make the type of mistakes they made under Coach Joe Gibbs. I'm still trying to understand exactly what it was I saw on my TV screen yesterday between 1 and 4pm. That was abysmally bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cskin Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Ramsey went too far in trying to impress Gibbs with his playmaking ability, when he should have been looking up at the relatively close score and focused on getting at least 3 points each time the Skins were in Giants territory. Here is the hammer striking the nail on the head. Had Ramsey just came in and moved the chains and taken care of the football, including taking what the defense gave him in terms of intermediate and deep routes, he would have shown Gibbs he's capable of moving the offense and playing within the system. Instead, he tried to make plays out of nothing and threw two horrible interceptions via poor decision making. For the record, I don't see what you guys see in Brunell. I see a guy not comfortable in the offense, but I see an experienced vet capable of moving the team. The deeper routes open up the more times Portis gains +5 yards a carry and starts gashing defenses. That occurs when Portis gets in sync with the blocking rhythms of the OL. Patience guys... Patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gichin13 Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Originally posted by TD_washingtonredskins Rypien looked horrible (as did Schroeder) for a while before they got better. There were plenty of games in our playoff seasons that we won despite our QB play. Not in the early 80s or in 1991 necessarily but definitely in the seasons in between. I remember quite a few games where Schroeder threw some horrible balls for some really bad picks. Another cannon arm, bad decision maker there ... maybe Gibbs can show Ramsey some Schroeder film on what not to do. Damn, if the guy would just toss a few into the sidelines when there is nothing there and take the three, tie ball game. Probably a win if 50/50 would catch the ball on a perfectly thrown ball at the goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 Different kinds of mistakes. Brunell's mistakes were largely the result of happy feet once the Giants started rushing the linebackers and the fact he can't seem to get the ball downfield more than 20 odd yards with much velocity. Ramsey's mistakes were of the 'I am going to show everyone what I am worth' variety. He simply refused to throw the ball away or eat it to preserve a field goal or field position. Instead he went for plays where the chances of success were much less than 50/50 and Gibbs will tell you that is the mark of a quarterback that still does not realize how you win games at this level consistently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gichin13 Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Originally posted by Cskin Here is the hammer striking the nail on the head. Had Ramsey just came in and moved the chains and taken care of the football, including taking what the defense gave him in terms of intermediate and deep routes, he would have shown Gibbs he's capable of moving the offense and playing within the system. Instead, he tried to make plays out of nothing and threw two horrible interceptions via poor decision making. For the record, I don't see what you guys see in Brunell. I see a guy not comfortable in the offense, but I see an experienced vet capable of moving the team. The deeper routes open up the more times Portis gains +5 yards a carry and starts gashing defenses. That occurs when Portis gets in sync with the blocking rhythms of the OL. Patience guys... Patience. For all the critiques of Brunell, Tampa Bay won a Super Bowl with Brad Johnson at QB. Baltimore won with Trent Dilfer back there. Obviously, I seriously question whether our defense is up to the caliber of those two teams, but you can win by holding on to the ball and moving the chains with the short to medium game. Ideally, having a medium to deep threat is always better, but it is not fatal to winning if we take care of the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 We're two games into the season, fellas. Brunell was moving the chains, putting together a nice drive when he got hurt, and for all his horrible mistakes, Ramsey made some great throws and would have had a much better game if Gardner didn't drop that TD before Ramsey's first pick. My point? Um, I don't know, probably something like don't panic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Brunnell was also in offensive sets that were limited but if executed properly would ve been effective. We do need to spread out the offense so portis wont be facing 8 man fronts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Originally posted by RF4L Is it just me, or are our current QB's the worst that Gibbs has had to work with? Brunell looks absolutely terrible and Ramsey, while possessing a strong arm, doesn't seem to have the mental acumen to succeed. I don't remember Theismann, Schroeder, Williams, Rypien and the rest being as bad as what we have on the roster right now. i dont know about the worst but all gibbs QBs did have a good arm. i cant say the same for brunell. after 2 games, brunell has no zip on his passes. he also cant throw deep. ramsey on the other hand has the arm. he just needs to relax. in all honesty , i think ramsey was so excited about being in the game and i think he wanted to impress Gibbs so bad that, he wasnt using his head on some of those INts. I still think Ramsey is the future of the redskins and he might get the start sooner than i thought he would. I hope Gibbs feels the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 unfortunately, that one drive in the third quarter before the injury to Brunell was all we saw of the Skins offense since 12:40 of the first quarter. that's a long time to be MIA against a defense with two starters out in Emmons and Stoutmire and a questionable level of overall talent to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 you guys are just to funny, if coles, and gardner and portis didn't drop Brunell's passes you would all be claiming he is our hero, but now you want to dump him :doh: If Brunell is so bad then why does Gibbs start him? Brunell still has an arm, not as strong as Ramseys but enough to get the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Apology accepted, Captain Needa. Er, I mean, bulldog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 the mirror question JBOOMA, is how come the same receivers seem to start catching balls and the offense started moving when Ramsey came in the game? all of a sudden the Giants had to drop guys further into coverage and give support outside to the corners. the corners were backpedalling and no longer being as aggressive with the WRs in close coverage. why? because they were afraid of an accurate deep ball and being beaten for a touchdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Originally posted by bulldog the mirror question JBOOMA, is how come the same receivers seem to start catching balls and the offense started moving when Ramsey came in the game? all of a sudden the Giants had to drop guys further into coverage and give support outside to the corners. the corners were backpedalling and no longer being as aggressive with the WRs in close coverage. why? because they were afraid of an accurate deep ball and being beaten for a touchdown. prevent d thats how, they were lined up off the wr's unlike before the giants d was playing not to lose, unlike earlier when they were playing to win i do agree Ramsey has a stronger arm but he doesn't have it mentally he made rookie mistakes yesterday that are not excuseable everyone says he is better then Carr and Harrington, but guess what he isn't and now we see it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted September 20, 2004 Author Share Posted September 20, 2004 I don't think the Giants were playing a prevent D with less than a two touchdown lead and almost 2 full quarters left to play. I think what happened was that the Giants realized that the man up strategy on the outside and keep 9 in, could result in big plays for the Redskins because we finally had an arm on the field to exploit the matchups. Brunell threw for 125 against Tampa when Portis went for 148. Yesterday, through 2 plus quarters, Brunell had what 95-100 yards? These are Shane Matthews numbers :laugh: They just aren't credible for a team hoping to win more than 5 or 6 games. All of the recent rules changes have been made to aid the quarterback and the receivers. To be limited in your ability to exploit these rules changes to your benefit week in and week out is to play with one hand tied behind your back. I think you will see in coming weeks that just as McNabb did, most good offenses will get yardage through the air against the Giants and Brunell's stats from yesterday before being replaced will only look that much worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefhogskin48 Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Brunell will be fine. Like Brad Johnson in '99, Brunell CAN throw it deep on play action. Inexplicably, we are not running many play action passes. We can't expect Brunell to just drop back 7 steps and let'r'rip like Peyton Manning. We need to rely on running and play action deep passing to keep the defense honest. To keep the blitzing to a minimum, we need to use more screen passes with Portis, who could potentially take it the distance. Oh, and get Gardner the heck out of there. I'd rather have a lesser talent who plays 100% than Gardner who plays 50/50 in all aspects of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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